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Female INTPs Clashes with Social Norms

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This is a discussion on Female INTPs Clashes with Social Norms within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; What a surprise, a girl has to fight more and deal with more crap than her male counterpart to be ...

  1. #21
    INTP - The Thinkers

    What a surprise, a girl has to fight more and deal with more crap than her male counterpart to be herself in a shifting patriarchial society. I never would've expected that.

    Frankly it's true; generally speaking life is harder for INTP girls because girls, for the most part, are expected to be, well, maternal. Being maternal means loving and caring and supportive, and even so these maternal types are supposed to be sociable and sweet. And for the average INTP woman, it can be difficult to express such feelings, but frankly it's not just INTP girls that face such a problem. It's just about any woman over the age of 30 who is unmarried or has no kids, or any woman who is single and expresses no desire to have women. It's not just INTP women being affected here, but that's a whole other story.
    Although, to prove the validity of that statement, I will share an anecdote. My 40 year old cousin, who was 38 at the time, was having a lunch with her brother and sister-in-law. This woman has no job and her only aspirations in life were to become a mother. At the time she had three kids, fourth on the way. She told from my cousin, her in-law, that it wasn't right her kids weren't going to have cousins (a year or two later they did get one, but it was a girl and not a boy so it basically didn't count... my family's a little messed up on this section of my mom's side), and how as a woman she was bound to bear children. My cousin, being who she is, just stared at her all deadpan and said that she is happy with where she is in life now and that's the way it's going to be. This in-law then went on to say that if my cousin wasn't married or had NO interest in children, then that MUST mean she's a lesbian. My cousin is a great person; she is a middle-school teacher who is an avid outdoors person and traveller, she has many friends, of which some have kids she enjoys talking with and taking out on adventures, and she's happy with her single life and very much appreciated by her colleagues. She's tried dating, mostly online, but it has done nothing for her. Yet as soon as she shows no interest in having children of her own or a husband, let alone a long-term boyfriend, she's a failure as a woman.
    [[needless to say, she has NOT gone to visit - or gone out of her way to keep in contact with - this brother and in-law since, but rather enjoys telling this story at gatherings]]

    Honestly, in high school, I was HAPPY to be INTP. I wasn't so socially awkward that I was a prime target for bullying, and I wasn't so sociable and otherwise extroverted that I drew attention to myself enough that rumours would spread about me. I could talk with the more popular crowd if I needed to, and I could even inject into their conversations without being put down; sometimes they even appreciated it, occasionally to the point of being welcoming. But oftentimes I was just left alone, and with me I would have a friend or two, or be all by myself. I was never bothered. My bestie calls this "the void", a place where one is not popular enough to befriend the "cool kids", but not enough of a loser to be made fun of. It was perfect! Lonely at times, and occasionally frustrating mostly due to the fact I felt I couldn't correct said populars when they were trying to have an intellectual conversation but were saying the stupidest things, but otherwise it was great.
    While it can be a pain to be an INTP girl in terms of the expectation of females in society, sometimes you'll find the right person who understands you enough to accept who you are and still want to be with you. It can be harder for us than others, but more often than not we're willing to wait, or in the least not be so bothered by it that it's crippling.

    It all depends on what you let bother you, ultimately. If you're an INTP woman and having strong feministic values, life will be rather harsh through your lens. But if you just accept that you're different, it usually won't seem quite so bad.
    Ista, Ellis Bell and ManWithoutHats thanked this post.

  2. #22
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by shadeslayer16 View Post
    <What a... in my opinion>
    Great, now I'm too angry at your cousin to sleep. Why must you tell me these things...

    On another note, I had 3 different experiences with 3 different schools. In one I had a big eclectic group of friends and was well known around school as a wacky eccentric– in another I was a bit of an outcast because I was dumb and smoked too much pot (I actually didn't smoke pot...yet)– at another I ran with a popular crowd as the least popular of the popular people; pretty heavy chameleon. I never considered myself clever until I took an AP class and my teacher told me I wrote some of the best essays he'd ever received (of course I still managed to make a D). Then I am a male/guy/man/boy (I don't like any of those words), so I don't know why I'm writing this. Social norms suck. Well for me they do– I suppose society may never have evolved to its present state if it wasn't for them and then I wouldn't exist. Or would I? Are social norms just a scapegoat for personal failure to adapt to the society one's inevitably born to? Crap I need to quit while I'm ahead (or am I already behind). Oh I almost forgot, I admire your opinion.
    (for the record, I don't smoke pot and I think the pothead subculture is one of the most despicable aspects of Western culture)

    I thought your last sentence had a better rhetorical effect without the edit, but I can identify with editing posts right after posting them (edit)

  3. #23
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWithoutHats View Post
    [...] Then I am a male/guy/man/boy (I don't like any of those words), so I don't know why I'm writing this. Social norms suck. Well for me they do– I suppose society may never have evolved to its present state if it wasn't for them and then I wouldn't exist. Or would I? Are social norms just a scapegoat for personal failure to adapt to the society one's inevitably born to? Crap I need to quit while I'm ahead (or am I already behind). Oh I almost forgot, I admire your opinion.
    (for the record, I don't smoke pot and I think the pothead subculture is one of the most despicable aspects of Western culture)

    I thought your last sentence had a better rhetorical effect without the edit, but I can identify with editing posts right after posting them (edit)
    Wow, it sounds like you've had quite the varied high school experience. I bet some interesting stories can come from it.

    I find calling people 'girls/women/ladies/female' or 'male/guy/man/boy' awkward for some reason. 'Guy(s)' not so much, but I understand where you're coming from there. Someone needs to come up with better titles. Especially for girls, because it seems easier to use the terms in a negative manner (so many male sports teams and military boot camp references come to mind here... go away, memories of Full Metal Jacket...)

    Haha but those are good questions! So easy to get lost in. I never would've thought of norms as a scapegoat; that would make an intriguing topic for a paper...
    Crap, now you pulled me into it.

    And thank you - not many people seem to value what I have to say... or maybe I don't voice it enough due to such a fear. It's sort of an infinite loop; when I do speak I'm often disregarded (an intelligent female with a strong opinion? Ohnoes!), mostly because I'm 'being silly[/hormonal]', but when I don't I'm "too quiet and need to speak up more", which often leads to thoughts about the infinite ways to murder someone with supplies most immediately at hand and with the least amount of effort. And no one wants to hear that... and when they insist they do they look at you (very literally O_O) and call you crazy. It's impossible to win.

    And holy crap yes! The pot subculture is a black mark upon society, and the scary thing is some places (at least in Canada) are going to talk about LEGALIZING it. I live in BC and for many years of it have lived outside of its most notorious epicentre for pot [Vancouver]. So many potheads, and they all think they're the coolest people ever and how people 'take life too seriously'. I'd rather take life too seriously than waste away to the nothingness drugs inflict. And frankly, pot reeks. Who wants to smell like that, least of all on a daily basis?

    I am notorious with editing. I can't post on here without editing at least once... even if it's not flawed. If I could see the whole thing at once (such as with a page on Microsoft Word), I probably wouldn't edit so often. But using microsoft word to write one post? That wouldn't make me crazy at ALL...
    It's just a matter of "ooh, I should add this!". Sometimes I hate myself for it... the flow of thoughts sometimes never ends.
    [[would that be the edit where it had the paragraph ranting on about feminism and how it's managed to become a twisted form of repression, or when it was just one sentence in the last paragraph? ...This is also another problem with editing too often Either way THANKS!]]
    Ellis Bell thanked this post.

  4. #24
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by shadeslayer16 View Post
    Wow, it sounds
    I find calling people 'girls/women/ladies/female' or 'male/guy/man/boy' awkward for some reason. 'Guy(s)' not so much, but I understand where you're coming from there. Someone needs to come up with better titles. Especially for girls, because it seems easier to use the terms in a negative manner (so many male sports teams and military boot camp references come to mind here... go away, memories of Full Metal Jacket...)

    Haha but those are good questions! So easy to get lost in. I never would've thought of norms as a scapegoat; that would make an intriguing topic for a paper...
    Crap, now you pulled me into it.

    And thank you - not many people seem to value what I have to say... or maybe I don't voice it enough due to such a fear. It's sort of an infinite loop; when I do speak I'm often disregarded (an intelligent female with a strong opinion? Ohnoes!), mostly because I'm 'being silly[/hormonal]', but when I don't I'm "too quiet and need to speak up more", which often leads to thoughts about the infinite ways to murder someone with supplies most immediately at hand and with the least amount of effort. And no one wants to hear that... and when they insist they do they look at you (very literally O_O) and call you crazy. It's impossible to win.

    And holy crap yes! The pot subculture is a black mark upon society, and the scary thing is some places (at least in Canada) are going to talk about LEGALIZING it. I live in BC and for many years of it have lived outside of its most notorious epicentre for pot [Vancouver]. So many potheads, and they all think they're the coolest people ever and how people 'take life too seriously'. I'd rather take life too seriously than waste away to the nothingness drugs inflict. And frankly, pot reeks. Who wants to smell like that, least of all on a daily basis?

    I am notorious with editing. I can't post on here without editing at least once... even if it's not flawed. If I could see the whole thing at once (such as with a page on Microsoft Word), I probably wouldn't edit so often. But using microsoft word to write one post? That wouldn't make me crazy at ALL...
    It's just a matter of "ooh, I should add this!". Sometimes I hate myself for it... the flow of thoughts sometimes never ends.
    [[would that be the edit where it had the paragraph ranting on about feminism and how it's managed to become a twisted form of repression, or when it was just one sentence in the last paragraph? ...This is also another problem with editing too often Either way THANKS!]]
    Get out of my head! Man and Woman are too formal; boy and girl imply being young or immature; lady is just inexplicably awkward, and guy is too informal ; male and female makes me feel like I'm a robot.

    I'm glad my value is valued (I would put a smiley wink face but they make me really uncomfortable, I just had to clearly establish the tone as lighthearted rather than condescending or something. For some reason really long parenthetical breaks feel much more natural to me). I'm sorry your thoughts are disregarded a lot. I feel that way a lot of the time when small talk is the means and the end in some conversation and I kind of feel like it's a choice between alienating people with inappropriately deep thoughts, being random for fun and probably alienating people and yourself, or being quiet (maybe just alienating yourself). Your gender roles are a lot worse than mine though.

    As for pot culture, it's pretty bad. I guess we need to pay Mexican cartels for a drug that makes doing nothing fun (in the process perpetuating a horrible political crisis and directly funding murder and gang warfare not to mention driving up taxes (if they live in the U.S.) so that the government they're funding to educate their kids and pay for their grandparents' medicine can try to stop the people they're buying they're drugs from). Is life so boring that we need to just force flood our brains with dopamine by inhaling chemical laden smoke? And this makes us cool. People who read books, or go hiking, or study, or ride a bike, or do any of the other activity that might encourage personal growth rather than slow mental decay are lame or, at the least, not very cool. And then of course, it's the government's fault for not legalizing it. Then we wouldn't have to buy it fr– or we could just exercise some personal responsibility and put a higher value on human life than one's own hedonistic pleasure. I'm going to drown in my cynicism if I don't stop, but I don't think the smell is too bad.

    I'm also pretty bad with editing. I was referring to the very end. I thought the 2 sentences you added were already implied and just having one sentence was more dramatic. Of course, that might not have been clear to someone else. I really just felt like acknowledging you edited it ha
    Last edited by ManWithoutHats; 10-04-2012 at 10:13 PM.
    shadeslayer16 thanked this post.

  5. #25
    ESTP

    Quote Originally Posted by shadeslayer16 View Post
    What a surprise, a girl has to fight more and deal with more crap than her male counterpart to be herself in a shifting patriarchial society. I never would've expected that.

    Frankly it's true; generally speaking life is harder for INTP girls because girls, for the most part, are expected to be, well, maternal. Being maternal means loving and caring and supportive, and even so these maternal types are supposed to be sociable and sweet. And for the average INTP woman, it can be difficult to express such feelings, but frankly it's not just INTP girls that face such a problem. It's just about any woman over the age of 30 who is unmarried or has no kids, or any woman who is single and expresses no desire to have women. It's not just INTP women being affected here, but that's a whole other story.
    Although, to prove the validity of that statement, I will share an anecdote. My 40 year old cousin, who was 38 at the time, was having a lunch with her brother and sister-in-law. This woman has no job and her only aspirations in life were to become a mother. At the time she had three kids, fourth on the way. She told from my cousin, her in-law, that it wasn't right her kids weren't going to have cousins (a year or two later they did get one, but it was a girl and not a boy so it basically didn't count... my family's a little messed up on this section of my mom's side), and how as a woman she was bound to bear children. My cousin, being who she is, just stared at her all deadpan and said that she is happy with where she is in life now and that's the way it's going to be. This in-law then went on to say that if my cousin wasn't married or had NO interest in children, then that MUST mean she's a lesbian. My cousin is a great person; she is a middle-school teacher who is an avid outdoors person and traveller, she has many friends, of which some have kids she enjoys talking with and taking out on adventures, and she's happy with her single life and very much appreciated by her colleagues. She's tried dating, mostly online, but it has done nothing for her. Yet as soon as she shows no interest in having children of her own or a husband, let alone a long-term boyfriend, she's a failure as a woman.
    [[needless to say, she has NOT gone to visit - or gone out of her way to keep in contact with - this brother and in-law since, but rather enjoys telling this story at gatherings]]

    Honestly, in high school, I was HAPPY to be INTP. I wasn't so socially awkward that I was a prime target for bullying, and I wasn't so sociable and otherwise extroverted that I drew attention to myself enough that rumours would spread about me. I could talk with the more popular crowd if I needed to, and I could even inject into their conversations without being put down; sometimes they even appreciated it, occasionally to the point of being welcoming. But oftentimes I was just left alone, and with me I would have a friend or two, or be all by myself. I was never bothered. My bestie calls this "the void", a place where one is not popular enough to befriend the "cool kids", but not enough of a loser to be made fun of. It was perfect! Lonely at times, and occasionally frustrating mostly due to the fact I felt I couldn't correct said populars when they were trying to have an intellectual conversation but were saying the stupidest things, but otherwise it was great.
    While it can be a pain to be an INTP girl in terms of the expectation of females in society, sometimes you'll find the right person who understands you enough to accept who you are and still want to be with you. It can be harder for us than others, but more often than not we're willing to wait, or in the least not be so bothered by it that it's crippling.

    It all depends on what you let bother you, ultimately. If you're an INTP woman and having strong feministic values, life will be rather harsh through your lens. But if you just accept that you're different, it usually won't seem quite so bad.
    Lol, sorry. (good post though)

  6. #26
    Unknown Personality

    The first rule of INTP club.... You don't talk about INTP club.... (except while in an INTP forum)..... (online)
    Ista, Ellis Bell and shadeslayer16 thanked this post.

  7. #27
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ista View Post
    Lol, sorry. (good post though)
    ... thank you for pointing out my mistake. It gave me a good laugh. I MEANT CHILDREN I SWEAR!
    Ista thanked this post.


     
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