[INTP] 2nd Order Types for finer discrimination - Page 12

2nd Order Types for finer discrimination

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This is a discussion on 2nd Order Types for finer discrimination within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by DarkBarlow I dunno. The whole idea still looks like a hypothesis in search of data rather than ...

  1. #111
    INTP

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBarlow View Post
    I dunno. The whole idea still looks like a hypothesis in search of data rather than a judgement in search of validation to me. But then I don't look at a urinal and see art either.
    I know that I will get a civil, non-condescending response from you, and that you understand simple statements in English. I do not consider myself to have made a hypothesis, but to be simply making a verbal statement about the arrangement of the 16 types when they are arranged from the type which has the highest percentage of it's members choosing Democrat in decreasing order to the last type which has the smallest percentage. That arrangement shows that the 8 types most likely to choose Democrat are all F types so they are all more likely to choose Democrat than any T type. To me that is a correlation. When you look at the types in the half of all types so arranged, the only thing they have in common is F. As for E,I,N,S,J or P they are all equally represented in both the top and bottom half of the list, the only other anomaly is that all the T types are in the bottom half, which is understandable because T-F is a zero-sum game, as are the others. Is there any part of this which is unclear or you think shows faulty reasoning. If so please point it out. If not, do you still think I am making a hypothesis? If so, why? Thanks.

    You don't see art because you flood your eyes with preconceptions based on a life time of using urinals. If you did not have that experience with it and one was unearthed by an archaeological expedition and you saw if for the very first time who knows how you would see it, but definitely not the way you do now. It reminds me of those Yoni pedestals with the lingam inside that are so predominant among Shaivite temples and personal shrines. The lingam is invisible illustrating the spiritual nature of Shiva and transcending the merely physical while calling the physical into existence. Spoken as a former archaeologist. :)) But I also get your point and would very much like to recommend a book by Tom Wolfe called The Painted Word, and if you think tall, glass box buildings suck I would throw in his From Bauhaus to Our House. For immediate fun if you are not familiar with it, or even if you are, Google "Deconstructivist Architecture" and look at the images. They are a hoot. Also a conscious attempt to destroy the architectural traditions world wide made possible among the fruits of victory.

  2. #112
    Unknown


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFrog View Post
    I know that I will get a civil, non-condescending response from you, and that you understand simple statements in English. I do not consider myself to have made a hypothesis, but to be simply making a verbal statement about the arrangement of the 16 types when they are arranged from the type which has the highest percentage of it's members choosing Democrat in decreasing order to the last type which has the smallest percentage. That arrangement shows that the 8 types most likely to choose Democrat are all F types so they are all more likely to choose Democrat than any T type. To me that is a correlation. When you look at the types in the half of all types so arranged, the only thing they have in common is F. As for E,I,N,S,J or P they are all equally represented in both the top and bottom half of the list, the only other anomaly is that all the T types are in the bottom half, which is understandable because T-F is a zero-sum game, as are the others. Is there any part of this which is unclear or you think shows faulty reasoning. If so please point it out. If not, do you still think I am making a hypothesis? If so, why? Thanks.

    You don't see art because you flood your eyes with preconceptions based on a life time of using urinals. If you did not have that experience with it and one was unearthed by an archaeological expedition and you saw if for the very first time who knows how you would see it, but definitely not the way you do now. It reminds me of those Yoni pedestals with the lingam inside that are so predominant among Shaivite temples and personal shrines. The lingam is invisible illustrating the spiritual nature of Shiva and transcending the merely physical while calling the physical into existence. Spoken as a former archaeologist. :)) But I also get your point and would very much like to recommend a book by Tom Wolfe called The Painted Word, and if you think tall, glass box buildings suck I would throw in his From Bauhaus to Our House. For immediate fun if you are not familiar with it, or even if you are, Google "Deconstructivist Architecture" and look at the images. They are a hoot. Also a conscious attempt to destroy the architectural traditions world wide made possible among the fruits of victory.
    'Additional data for finer analysis'...without the T/F stats...How do 51/49s stack up? What about the 75/25s?

    And then there's lies, damned lies and statistics. Dean Edell had my favorite take on this when it came to medical studies, '75% of people involved in car accidents surveyed had carrots for dinner at least once the month prior. Eating carrots causes car accidents!'
    Last edited by DarkBarlow; 03-26-2018 at 10:38 PM.

  3. #113
    INTP


    Quote Originally Posted by Nell View Post
    but I somehow keep thinking you'd react like this:


    Well, no wonder. That's a gif made of footage from my bedroom cam. How'd that get here? But hey, convincing dog suit, yeah? ENTP's into furries. (And nonchalance, natch.)
    Necrofantasia and stathamspeacoat thanked this post.

  4. #114
    INTP

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBarlow View Post
    'Additional data for finer analysis'...without the T/F stats...How do 51/49s stack up? What about the 75/25s?

    And then there's lies, damned lies and statistics. Dean Edell had my favorite take on this when it came to medical studies, '75% of people involved in car accidents surveyed had carrots for dinner at least once the month prior. Eating carrots causes car accidents!'
    Huummm? i can see by your comments that the brain scrambler was attached to my post again. Let me answer you question about where the 51/49 stack up. One letter wins by one, depending on which has the 51. Am I doing something bizarre by looking at it this way? Every type (eight) in which F had a higher score than T was in the first half of the list. All eight in which T had a higher score F was in the bottom half. Can I make the assumption that in every type with a F in it, that every individual in that type had a higher score for F than for T? Can I make the assumption that if I take a percentage of the respondents who were given that type that each one wold have had their F score because it was higher than their T score? I know that this requires higher arithmetic skills in that it uses the concepts of "less than" and "greater than" which can be tricky, given the rigidity of the number line, which in itself may be a difficult concept. The percentages (we are really getting into higher math now; I'm sorry but it just has to be done), the percentages of each of the 16 types in the MBTI which choose each of the three political positions is given by CCP. i have to trust their integrity on the accuracy of these numbers (pesky little bastards) and they did not just throw together some at random, or should I even mention than concept as it is so arcane. If all this is true then all the individuals who chose Democrat in the eight types which in which the highest percentage did chose Democrat all had higher F than T scores. Is this not remarkable as their cannot possible be any association of F with Democrat. Here I throw all caution to the wind. It's like F types all had the same magnetic charge and were attracted to the same pole when placed in a magnetic field. Because that pole is has the opposite charge than they do it also illustrates the concept of useful idiots, for whom ideology blinds them to ontology, but that's another rant. I would ask you if that clarified anything, but that isn't necessary. I did have fun writing the paragraph. :)) About the 75/25 thing. That is what the 2nd Order type is supposed to do. The logic is the same as above. There you are given a T or an F depending which one has the most times chosen as the entire T-F axis is split in half, whichever half has the most gets the letter. In the 2nd order only the possible range of responses for a given letter is split in half. If that letter has less than half of the possible choices then it gets a lower-case letter, if more than half it gets a capital letter. But with just this little additional discrimination you now have 256 unique sub-types for any given type, and the potential information that has already been accumulated for your data set can possibly yield even more. I would call this additional discrimination a 2nd Order Type Table with 16 cells within each of which would be the 256 sub-cells of the 2nd Order types. For anyone who knows anything about spreadsheets this is child's play and their graphic capabilities make looking at the data in many different ways very informative.

    I had a friend back in the seventies who junked sociology and wanted to become a practitioner of unconventional medicine so he went to chiropractor school. He said that the new students were told to do their best, but remember that most of the complaints they would see would take care of themselves, so don't do any harm.

    Did I piss you off with the urinal thing? It reminds me of a cartoon in the New Yorker. The same friend, who was reading the WSJ, frequently shows me cartoons there and asks me what I made of them as they seem senseless to him. This is one he showed me and just smiled. It had several cells. In the first was a blank wall with a mop and a bucket, next a person shows up and stops to examine them, he is quickly joined by other and soon there is a group all talking to each other or looking at the mop and bucket. Some look quite animated. Suddenly the janitor comes by, picks up his tools and walks on. The crowd dissipates. Zen stories, Sufi stories, Taoist tales, cartoons, jokes, etc. The world is better because of them as they frequently teach so much from such a small kernel. That story was a peace offering if you felt insulted from what I said earlier, as I had no such intent. It's not hard to tell when I do.

    Enough is enough. I've had it with this thing, so if there are any howlers in it then so be it. I'm sure anyone who actually reads it will cut me some slack. No? :))
    DarkBarlow thanked this post.


     
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