[INTP] "A truth is a truth until it's organized.." - Page 2

"A truth is a truth until it's organized.."

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This is a discussion on "A truth is a truth until it's organized.." within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by Ista How? Explain it like I'm a cat. Okay, first we define "organized." Simply put, it's a ...

  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Ista View Post
    How? Explain it like I'm a cat.
    Okay, first we define "organized." Simply put, it's a we-they thing. You are part of the organization or you're not, and the organization relates to the external environment in a specific way. The truth transcends such boundaries and definitions.

    As humans we have different experiences, depending on family of origin, culture, age, social class, and many other things. A person who gets the truth, plugs into the truth in a personal way. Others might also get the truth--let's say they even get the same truth--but also in a personal way. Trying to share the truth, with each other or with others, is difficult. The truth transcends language.

    People have different communication styles and different human needs, and even these change over time. So the members are reduced to judging and disciplining one another according to whether they think the others are following the "truth." Fear of the organization itself, or fear of being excluded, can become more important than one's own truth.

    Most organizations have some kind of hierarchy and membership requirements, meaning some people depend on someone else's truth, while others think they have the truth because they've belonged for 20 years or because they have a responsible position. Some movements try to avoid such things in various ways, but personality cults seem inevitable.

    Organizations need members, so the truth might be sacrificed for the sake of growth.

    It's difficult for even the most enlightened to reliably look into another's soul. So while certain paths might be recommended (e.g., chop wood, carry water; or studying under a teacher), these might not be right for a given person at a given time.

    Admittedly, in our everyday lives we all have to deal with fear, personality cults, and having to prove ourselves, and these challenges may be part of our path to finding the truth. But it's our own personal struggle with these factors that helps us find the truth. Having a prepackaged version of the path robs us of the opportunity to engage in the struggle. Sure, we can fight or campaign to change things within the organization, but that distracts us from our own path.

    The truth is slippery. Once you find it, your relationship with it changes--partly because you've changed. Similarly, organizations change in many ways; they might be in touch with the truth at first, but then the leader gets too old, or the new leader isn't as good as the old one, or the organization gets too big and impersonal, or withers away because of financial problems. Or maybe it no longer fits into the current external (e.g., historical) circumstance.

    That's all I have for now. I'm not used to talking about these things.
    Ista thanked this post.

  2. #12
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ista View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by islandlight View Post
    At first I thought "organize" meant parse, analyze. But apparently it means creating an organization, as in a group of people.

    | J. Krishnamurti

    Makes sense.
    How? Explain it like I'm a cat.
    This inspired me for another explanation, that might me OK for a cat.

    At the start of organizing group there is some truth about the problem that needs to be solved.

    The organization may turn it into lie in at least two general ways:

    1) The truth is inflated so it has more inpact in rallying support.
    2) When the problem is solved, the organization needs to find raison d'etre pushing way beyond what is true.

  3. #13
    ESTP

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFalcon View Post
    This inspired me for another explanation, that might me OK for a cat.

    At the start of organizing group there is some truth about the problem that needs to be solved.

    The organization may turn it into lie in at least two general ways:

    1) The truth is inflated so it has more inpact in rallying support.
    2) When the problem is solved, the organization needs to find raison d'etre pushing way beyond what is true.
    Hmm. *Strokes chin* Yeeeeaas. I like a good date tray, still, needs more boxes.*


    * https://www.personalitycafe.com/intp-...ike-boxes.html

  4. #14

    As a thought experiment, try to imagine what the penultimate truth would be. This probably has a lot to do with religion. Spirits or gods much like Plato's world of ideals become these personified forms to relate to whatever it is it may be used to describe, all the while imbued with cultural and relateable frame-of-mind references. The Judeo Christian god attempts to extend this into a more unified sense by generating a common undeniable morality, but at the same time taking the ideal to this more generalized level of abstraction may also lose some of the particular nuances that were described by the spirit in its more limited context. The point I'm trying to make here is once you have a notion crystalized, it seems to be unavoidable that it would also be the case that something is at the same time lost. There is a famous quote I've identified with in the past that basically says something similar.

    Of course it seems hardly an answer to say "truth is relative", I think a better way to think of it is that truth is at base an experience, and as such must take place instantaneously. It's also based on the person having the experience. A person changes and develops and grows (at least if they are in any measure worthy of calling themselves human being), in which case the truth never really remains the same. The extent to which it becomes universal and applies to everyone reliably is not even close to the whole story, and epistemologically hardly has any bearing beyond being repeatedly reliable. Until it isn't - even if it takes a millenia.

    Categorization, in a similar sense to crystalization, loses something. That said, it's also a tool because it can better isolate a relation for the mind to comprehend at a more obvious level. But as was described by others in this thread before, what becomes the kryptonite to truth over time is the way concepts can be abused and distorted for whatever power struggle among the masses may be taking place.

    I would also in the same sense argue that a truth is a truth when it is disorganized, So long as disorder is not to mean gibberish. Disorder more in the sense as a gateway to an open mind.
    Ista thanked this post.

  5. #15

    *Non INTP Disclaimer*

    l think it's a partially generic statement but he's typed as an ISFP so it's interesting to break down from a function perspective.

    What he might be saying is that by the time his thoughts are organized, they're not pure anymore and he views them as no longer valid and derivative.


    Which would be interesting if his ''truth'' was Ni, then later organized by Te.

    l enjoyed his talks but he died shortly after l started watching them
    Ista thanked this post.


     
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