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This is a discussion on ⚧ Gender ⚧ within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; It's always male and female I don't care what else they have or created...

  1. #11
    ISTP - The Mechanics

    It's always male and female
    I don't care what else they have or created

  2. #12

    1) For me, gender is a partial representation of your body by the use of a sacrality (ensemble of words with social power) relative to a political/social/cultural context, which will realise a materiality by repetitive and performative actions (which will ask for eventually new terms, which will produce different materiality, which will eventually ask for new terms, etc...). It's partial cause of the intersectionnality with racial identities, validity, age and other way to express something with your body. It's just a more precise definition of gender as a social construct.

    2) Well, gender realise and produce your sex, but not only, it can realise your clothes, your haircuts and erotic parts too. Now it's linked to a political context, like the cisheteronormativity in which we live in. As Judith Butler shows in her writings, you cannot stop subversions of gender role, even when you want to perform the stereotypes, you end by showing to everyone how much we need to repeat the performances to keep the fiction of the current cisheteronormative sacrality. And then people are more able to see what it exclude, and then will enter the trangressions of the current norms, while before they were subversive, invisible to the eyes of the societies. In conclusion, there's a continuity between gender and sex, but we have to be careful, gender isn't social sex, and sex isn't biological either, it's a social construct, an arbitrary cluster of parameters like hormones, gametes, genitalia, etc.

    3) It's basically authoritarian and antidemocratic. The political goal of the cisheteronormative sacrality is to breed, without autodetermination and consent, very useful for authoritarian ideologies, you can use it in other ways (it has been always done as such), but you keep this unnecessary possibility wide open. While the political goals of the queer sacralities are to allow autodetermination and consent. So make your choice, once and for all. I'm eager to see a fascist movement using queer sacrality to advocate for white people to breed more against the "muslim invasion", that would be beautiful.

    4) Well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion from here ^^. But anyway, let's destroy heteronormativity, and hail queer feminism (never forget feminism). Spread the word.

    And to the video that has been shared, if I apply what I said before, well, it seems they do not speak in a gendered way, and they don't say anywhere on the links we can find on them which gender they are. So we can only assume two things, either they are agender by never mentioning their gender, or they are hiding their gender in public, like we may hide our location or our age, or anything you don't want to be known. Oh and yeah, try to ask for their pronouns at every occasions you feel safe about using queer sacralities, this will reassure other queer peoples and question the others in their cisheteronormativity by telling them that it's not normal and obvious to know your gender.

    I'm open to any questions and willing to make any clarifications that are needed. But I'm not open to contradictory debate, with one exception, you have to explicit everything we would have in common, but even here it's not granted I will enter the debate, if there are to much things we don't share for example.

    And much love to everyone, so you don't think I hold any grudge against you (cause I take the society as responsible not the individuals), whoever you are. <3

    And I'm trans non-binary, and my pronouns are zie or she, whatever you prefer.

  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by Venoshock View Post
    This forum never disappoints when it comes to...being boring...
    Because the responses weren't going down the path you hoped, or our answers weren't colorful enough for you?

    :3 Is this a woman, or a man?
    Honestly can't say with 100% certainty, but made it less than 5 minutes into video. The make-up thing doesn't interest me. There are some who can be very good at pretending to be the opposite sex, but I'd never want to get into my own private little Crying Game.

    I saw this video a while back. If it gets boring the part around 8:10 is a bit funny.


  4. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by Venoshock View Post
    1)What do you consider gender to be? How is it different from the socially programmed definition?
    Like a shitload of other things gender is a spectrum. Male on one end of it and female on the other end. All people have feminine traits AND masculine traits. And yes...you can identify with both the male & female gender if you are somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

    2)Do you separate gender from sex or so called gender roles or are they synonymous?
    Basic biology teaches us that you identify a creature's sex by looking at its reproductive organs. You have a penis, you are male, you have a vagina than you are female. Gender is more a psychological/cultural construct. But indeed entirely different from sex.

    3)Are gender roles in modern times detrimental or necessary? Why?
    If they are detrimental it entirely depends on how we view those roles. When a society looks at the feminine role as a quiet, submissive, stay at home mom who can hold no place of importance in society and the women suffer because of it....then yes....detrimental. If a society however looks at women as equals to men, as empowered beings who are important and have a significant role to play in society then the role is not detrimental. Unless women of course see this as undesirable....

    Are they necessary? One could argue no they aren't. A feminine man and a feminine woman can still make a great & succesful couple for instance.

    However.....a large portion of society needs clarity. A lot of people still think in black & white, mainly in order to make sense of the world around them. For them strictly defined gender roles are, mostly in their own views, necessary.

    4) What's your outlook with regards to how they should/will be perceived and handled in the future? Why?
    Gender neutrality is a trend right now and that will continue for the foreseeable future. I think a third gender, neutral, will become an accepted thing. As with all things there will be a counter movement however. In some quarters you will hear calls for the return of traditional gender roles. The masculine man who works hard for the family and the caring & nurturing woman who stays at home for the kids. Bit 50s style.

  5. #15
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Holy shit this thread is transphobic.

    Typical that an introvert can't appreciate that someone else has the authority to define their own idea of gender.

    You have no authority on how someone else identifies, whether you understand it or like it.

    The arrogance involved in thinking we get to determine what the truth is for someone else. Irrationality lads, watch it. Reality will never live up to your expectations if you're this limited in your perspective.

    Work on your extroverted functions to have a clearer sense of what reality is and what's actually factual.

    It's so funny when INTPs buy into the accepted norm. You're supposed to be helping human understanding, not hindering it with your own biases for what can and can't be.

  6. #16
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentia View Post
    1) For me, gender is a partial representation of your body by the use of a sacrality (ensemble of words with social power) relative to a political/social/cultural context, which will realise a materiality by repetitive and performative actions (which will ask for eventually new terms, which will produce different materiality, which will eventually ask for new terms, etc...). It's partial cause of the intersectionnality with racial identities, validity, age and other way to express something with your body. It's just a more precise definition of gender as a social construct.

    2) Well, gender realise and produce your sex, but not only, it can realise your clothes, your haircuts and erotic parts too. Now it's linked to a political context, like the cisheteronormativity in which we live in. As Judith Butler shows in her writings, you cannot stop subversions of gender role, even when you want to perform the stereotypes, you end by showing to everyone how much we need to repeat the performances to keep the fiction of the current cisheteronormative sacrality. And then people are more able to see what it exclude, and then will enter the trangressions of the current norms, while before they were subversive, invisible to the eyes of the societies. In conclusion, there's a continuity between gender and sex, but we have to be careful, gender isn't social sex, and sex isn't biological either, it's a social construct, an arbitrary cluster of parameters like hormones, gametes, genitalia, etc.

    3) It's basically authoritarian and antidemocratic. The political goal of the cisheteronormative sacrality is to breed, without autodetermination and consent, very useful for authoritarian ideologies, you can use it in other ways (it has been always done as such), but you keep this unnecessary possibility wide open. While the political goals of the queer sacralities are to allow autodetermination and consent. So make your choice, once and for all. I'm eager to see a fascist movement using queer sacrality to advocate for white people to breed more against the "muslim invasion", that would be beautiful.

    4) Well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion from here ^^. But anyway, let's destroy heteronormativity, and hail queer feminism (never forget feminism). Spread the word.

    And to the video that has been shared, if I apply what I said before, well, it seems they do not speak in a gendered way, and they don't say anywhere on the links we can find on them which gender they are. So we can only assume two things, either they are agender by never mentioning their gender, or they are hiding their gender in public, like we may hide our location or our age, or anything you don't want to be known. Oh and yeah, try to ask for their pronouns at every occasions you feel safe about using queer sacralities, this will reassure other queer peoples and question the others in their cisheteronormativity by telling them that it's not normal and obvious to know your gender.

    I'm open to any questions and willing to make any clarifications that are needed. But I'm not open to contradictory debate, with one exception, you have to explicit everything we would have in common, but even here it's not granted I will enter the debate, if there are to much things we don't share for example.

    And much love to everyone, so you don't think I hold any grudge against you (cause I take the society as responsible not the individuals), whoever you are. <3

    And I'm trans non-binary, and my pronouns are zie or she, whatever you prefer.
    LISTEN TO THIS PERSON. You will never get to experience another person's perspective, you just have to take their word for it.

    You not trusting them to understand themselves but thinking you understand them enough to do it for them is just pure illogical.
    Innocentia thanked this post.

  7. #17

    Females can multitask, males cannot! The physical body part is just temporary anyway!

  8. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by napkineater View Post
    Holy shit this thread is transphobic.

    Typical that an introvert can't appreciate that someone else has the authority to define their own idea of gender.

    You have no authority on how someone else identifies, whether you understand it or like it.

    The arrogance involved in thinking we get to determine what the truth is for someone else. Irrationality lads, watch it. Reality will never live up to your expectations if you're this limited in your perspective.

    Work on your extroverted functions to have a clearer sense of what reality is and what's actually factual.

    It's so funny when INTPs buy into the accepted norm. You're supposed to be helping human understanding, not hindering it with your own biases for what can and can't be.
    Are you reading a different thread?

  9. #19
    INTP

    Quote Originally Posted by napkineater View Post
    Holy shit this thread is transphobic.

    Typical that an introvert can't appreciate that someone else has the authority to define their own idea of gender.

    You have no authority on how someone else identifies, whether you understand it or like it.

    The arrogance involved in thinking we get to determine what the truth is for someone else. Irrationality lads, watch it. Reality will never live up to your expectations if you're this limited in your perspective.

    Work on your extroverted functions to have a clearer sense of what reality is and what's actually factual.

    It's so funny when INTPs buy into the accepted norm. You're supposed to be helping human understanding, not hindering it with your own biases for what can and can't be.
    In my case, I see people stating their opinion in this thread and there is no enough information to detect transphobia... because nobody shows aggressiveness, fear, hatred against someone from the LGBTTQQIAAP community. In my case, my perception is that gender = sex and there are three categories: male, female, exception. You can maybe see this perception as transphobic... but, if I'm talking with a non-binary lesbian transwoman, it won't affect how I will interact with her since tthey are actually details for me: I'm way more interested by personality, skills, goals and interests. Well, sex matters in some context: find a partner for dancing, or dating someone.

    I don't know why you bring the concept of truth or reality... As I see it, this thread is mainly about interpretation, perception and belief. You know... I would to like to perceive the world in order to focus on what allow me to go forward and build something positive and simplify the rest. Consider sex and gender, it really go down to... can I have kids with this person? Male = no, Female = maybe. And can I do this activity (i. e., dancing) without worrying about misinterpretation and annoying judgements?

    I haven't seen a good argument for making my perception on this subject more complex, so I don't see the point of doing it. We all see the world differently and that's actually a good thing... but it seems that some people want to impose us how we have to perceive the world and that is really problematic.

  10. #20
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcar View Post
    In my case, I see people stating their opinion in this thread and there is no enough information to detect transphobia... because nobody shows aggressiveness, fear, hatred against someone from the LGBTTQQIAAP community. In my case, my perception is that gender = sex and there are three categories: male, female, exception. You can maybe see this perception as transphobic... but, if I'm talking with a non-binary lesbian transwoman, it won't affect how I will interact with her since tthey are actually details for me: I'm way more interested by personality, skills, goals and interests. Well, sex matters in some context: find a partner for dancing, or dating someone.

    I don't know why you bring the concept of truth or reality... As I see it, this thread is mainly about interpretation, perception and belief. You know... I would to like to perceive the world in order to focus on what allow me to go forward and build something positive and simplify the rest. Consider sex and gender, it really go down to... can I have kids with this person? Male = no, Female = maybe. And can I do this activity (i. e., dancing) without worrying about misinterpretation and annoying judgements?

    I haven't seen a good argument for making my perception on this subject more complex, so I don't see the point of doing it. We all see the world differently and that's actually a good thing... but it seems that some people want to impose us how we have to perceive the world and that is really problematic.
    All I hear is "the world should be more like I think the way it is" and that's your Ti and Si. You need to work on your Ne bro. I mean this. Phobia means to other something. To other someone is to not recognise their humanity. Recognizing someone's humanity is a natural thing that makes us so clever and complex, empathic is rational. It's the only way we all survive. But when we OTHER people we're saying what they think isn't like what I think. They're different from me. That's the origin of these phobic words.

    Your argument has been made before, what do YOU actually think?

    This is the least scientific or academic approach to thinking you understand something. You're lying to yourself in some way. Start being more honest and working out the inconsistencies. Your Ti will love you for it.

    You need to integrate with reality. The self (Ti) has to meet the outer world (Ne) for reality to make any sense. You're being defensive about something. I'm telling you now. You're not being honest. And the bullshit just won't cut it anymore if we're going to survive as a species.


     
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