[INTP] Ambition - Would you rather...

Ambition - Would you rather...

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This is a discussion on Ambition - Would you rather... within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; When it comes to ambition which is the wiser stance? Choosing modest goals and stances well within your ability so ...

  1. #1

    Ambition - Would you rather...

    When it comes to ambition which is the wiser stance?

    Choosing modest goals and stances well within your ability so that happiness is easily attainable, even if you risk reaching the end of your life wondering if you should've done more or could've been more.

    -Or-

    Pursuing very ambitious goals that you know are beyond your capacity. Because even if you risk contending with constant inadequacy and the psychological blow of having to give up, you will have the satisfaction of having lived life to the fullest and been the best you could have been as a consequence of pursuing said goals.

    ---
    Related:

     



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  2. #2

    This really depends on the person, neither option is universally satisfactory. Some people are happiest while striving for greatness, whilst others desire a simple, quality lifestyle. I, for one, prefer option A, I don't care to make my mark in society, I just want a happy home life, doing a simple job I enjoy, coming home to my girlfriend/wife every day.

  3. #3

    I don't see how stretching oneself to the limit necessarily = best self. Is the best self a happy self, or a striving self? Can one be both and neither? Can we set smaller, attainable goals that lead to very big, possibly attainable goals? I'm gunna have to go eat my sandwich in a sunny field to better reflect....
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  4. #4

    The P variant. Goals is so J

    Nevertheless, everyone should want to be the best they they can be. You could probably construct it as some sort of moral requirement against yourself; at any rate, I don't think overly much of people who are content with never pushing themselves.

    So, doing this backwards: In order not to wonder whether there could have been more at the end, at every instant before there must have been a push for the maximum. In practice this results in quite modest very-short-term goals, but a constant push for more. Eventually, you will fail, yes. But in the one instance where I recall this most acutely, it wasn't a blow. It was actually a deeply satisfying and joyful experience (I was studying pure maths, and eventually capitulated, watching others pass me by): I knew I had given it my all and gone as far as I could. There was nothing left to do, no further way to try; at that one moment, in that context, I was as good as I ever could be. If I can say that at the end, it will have been a very rewarding life.
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  5. #5

    I'm happy with never reaching any greatly ambitious goal. I'm not happy with never trying. I don't get too disappointed when I fail if I really tried. I still enjoy the little stuff along the way. Kinda reminds me of this:

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
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  6. #6
    INTP - The Thinkers

    I think it is in a way a false dichotomy for once you reach one modest goal, you can move from there further. After all it is a preferred paradigm in software development - Agile as with each step we learn. If you progress one step at time, you can over time cover quite a distance. The power of humbleness. What you want is that the steps have a general direction so you are not moving in circles.

    My life's journey is more of a discovery (of what I can learn, create, what I can overcome, how will my principles serve me) than heroic epic for one shiny goal. Perhaps it's the curiosity driving me.
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  7. #7
    INTP

    Combining both. Choosing one or two very ambitious goals and, then, looking for modest goals that, once attained, should make the very ambitious goals more reachable. Basically, using the very ambitious goals as a modest goal generator.

    I would add that very ambitious goals can be modulated over time. Sometimes, you discover that the goal is actually pointless or you make it more meaningful, so you change it.

  8. #8

    I've done things I never expected to do and they weren't exactly planned goals for myself except to the extent that when it came to the forefront of my life I was driven to make it happen.
    I am certainly not an ambitious person, but I think when confronted with certain problems or obstacles in life, I would certainly like to support someone's courage to do their best at it.

    Where one's goal may well go under revision, we have an abstract end and in trying to realize that end, we may find that the initial aim wasn't exactly the same as what we realized. So I am wary of attachments to the letter of one's goals rather than the spirit, what drove that aspiration. At the same time though, some goals are better because they may seem so abstract as to be impossible to obtain. Things that are a life time's work and I tend to think they aren't material things but about a quality of living as fostered by your growth into the person you wish to be.
    I have grown by the new responsibilities and pressures put upon myself, this is what prompts growth, a challenge to be met. So what I do hope is that I don't stagnate and that I do set for myself goals to improve the set of problems I deal with so my next set of problems might be easier or a continuation of my earlier habits.
    If I have the goal to be a good partner, it is only in confronting the challenges that arise within the relationship rather than any necessarily set out in my mind. I find life experiences propel me to become better than I am.

    I am happy with my lot in life, it is an incredibly fortunate one, but it may not always be so lucky. In fact, I find myself one prone to stagnation and trying to get into a comfort bubble, but I can't ignore my own life without neglecting it and thus destroying it, so I am compelled to acknowledge whats going on around me and really question what I want to do.
    I have different life projects in terms of the work I do, the family and relationships I have, the home I share and the person I want to be for others. To me they are massive goals and dreams, although I doubt it will be some epic in itself, but it will be the story of my own life and hopefully one that I content to live.

    I wonder what is the present state of my life.
     

    https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablu...20Vasilyuk.pdf
    The prototype of the easy-simple life world is the infant. Perezhivanie is impossible in the purely easy-simple life world, because everything is provided and the pleasure principle faces no resistance. With immediate satisfaction there can be no contradiction or any situation creating psychological challenges to be ‘worked over’. However, as soon as some difficulty arises in this infantile life-world, the only psychological resources available are those already acquired in the easy-simple world of hedonistic, here-and-now satisfaction. Whatever the nature of the difficulty or complication which has arisen the infantile response will be manifested in diffuse, senseless activity. Perezhivanie entails a denial of reality, a delusion that the need has in fact been met or that it was never felt.

    The prototype of the difficult-simple life world is the fanatic. The perezhivanie of the difficult-simple life world is Realism, but perezhivanie in this world begins with patience; patience differs from denial in that although it believes in a good which is not present, it does not deny the problem and believes it can be solved. But when patience runs out, and frustration sets in and it is faced with the impossible situation, the reality principle offers two alternative ways out. The first way is to postpone satisfaction, or lower one’s sights and make do with a substitute for what is impossible according to the reality principle. In the second way, the subject abandons the former pursuit (the meaning of their former life) and takes up another which is in no way a substitute for the loss of the first or a continuation of it by other means. This may be what is called ‘coping behaviour’.

    The easy-complex life world is an aesthetic and moral world. The perezhivanie of the easy-complex world is value-perezhivanie. The critical situation may arise when an activity which is attractive to the subject comes into conflict with the subject’s life-project; either the offending activity is morally discredited and postponed or abandoned or the subject finds a way of mentally reconciling it as not really in contradiction to the life-project. Alternatively, value-perezhivanie is required in the wake of a wrecked life-project, searching amongst other projects for that which is most valued and could restore meaning to their life, such as ‘in memory of’ the lost lifeproject. Alternatively, the crisis may be resolved by a radical restructuring of the subject’s entire value system, maintaining continuity through forgiveness and redemption. The principle of value-experiencing is phronesis or wisdom, rather than intelligence, but it is theoretical not practical work.

    The perezhivanie of the difficult-complex life world is creative perezhivanie and entails an entire reconstruction of the self.
    The first alternative is to continue the pursuit of the values which had hitherto defined one’s life but were identified with a particular person or project which is no longer available; however, the identification of the life-intent with this particular form of realising it can be overcome by reformulating these values in more general, abstract terms, so that they can be realised in some other particular form (or person), and the fixation on that former particular embodiment was unnecessary.
    The second path is to discover that life has hitherto been based on false values and to formulate a new value system, but in such a way that preserves the meaning of the past life, showing how it has conquered error and at last won through to life’s true intent.
    The third type of creative perezhivanie is connected with the highest stages of personality development as the life-intent moves away from egoistic projects and places the self in the service of higher motives, proof against any misfortune and for which, ultimately the person is prepared for any sacrifice including life itself.

    The leading psychological formation in this life world is the will. The integrity of the person as presented in self-consciousness is not something present and achieved, but has to be actualised in life-activity and the will is the only organ which can achieve that actualisation. The will is therefore the central psychological formation in the formation of the personality. The will is first developed in childhood, according to Vygotsky, in the passage through the series of childhood life-crises which separate the successive phases of childhood, when the social situation of development which defines the social position of the child must be transformed for child to ‘grow up’ and the child break through to the next station in life. Likewise in adulthood, the personality develops precisely through the person’s passage through life-crises by means of creative perezhivanija, which reconstruct the self while not discarding the former self, but allowing the past to be rationally understood from a new, higher standpoint.
    The bolded section sounds on point to the issue that could be implied in the OP of whether one is to give up their grand dreams and be 'realistic'.

  9. #9

    Quote Originally Posted by ultracrepidarian View Post
    I don't see how stretching oneself to the limit necessarily = best self. Is the best self a happy self, or a striving self? Can one be both and neither? Can we set smaller, attainable goals that lead to very big, possibly attainable goals? I'm gunna have to go eat my sandwich in a sunny field to better reflect....
    The growth you experience when being thrown into the unfamiliar tends to be greater than what you get by constantly staying in your comfort zone because you're forced to make the most of your available skills and resources, but the risks are also greater.

    This scenario is fundamentally a matter of low risk/return vs high risk/return. There is no right answer, but because we're dealing with humans, there is going to be a philosophy reinforcing the decision to go for either, that's what I'm interested in.




    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    The P variant. Goals is so J
    Apologies, I didn't mean to make you lose MBTI cred by making you deviate from your chosen stereotype.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    Nevertheless, everyone should want to be the best they they can be. You could probably construct it as some sort of moral requirement against yourself; at any rate, I don't think overly much of people who are content with never pushing themselves.
    Ya know, the longer I live, the less I use "should" statements with regards to people. Arguments of morality in particular aren't very compelling once you've explored nihilism. It all boils down to pride and wishful thinking.

    Life is interesting because there are people who take the "less advisable" road, but manage to come up with excellent reasons to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    So, doing this backwards: In order not to wonder whether there could have been more at the end, at every instant before there must have been a push for the maximum. In practice this results in quite modest very-short-term goals, but a constant push for more. Eventually, you will fail, yes. But in the one instance where I recall this most acutely, it wasn't a blow. It was actually a deeply satisfying and joyful experience (I was studying pure maths, and eventually capitulated, watching others pass me by): I knew I had given it my all and gone as far as I could. There was nothing left to do, no further way to try; at that one moment, in that context, I was as good as I ever could be. If I can say that at the end, it will have been a very rewarding life.
    Thing is, that sort of puts you in the second group. You aren't deliberately choosing challenges well within your reach out of fear of failure. You're going for high risk high return.
    The stereotypical P option would put you in the first group.


    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFalcon View Post
    I think it is in a way a false dichotomy for once you reach one modest goal, you can move from there further. After all it is a preferred paradigm in software development - Agile as with each step we learn. If you progress one step at time, you can over time cover quite a distance. The power of humbleness. What you want is that the steps have a general direction so you are not moving in circles.

    My life's journey is more of a discovery (of what I can learn, create, what I can overcome, how will my principles serve me) than heroic epic for one shiny goal. Perhaps it's the curiosity driving me.
    It isn't necessarily a false dichotomy, because in trying to reach the middle ground, you will err for one side or the other based on your self perception and self awareness. If you consider yourself adaptable, there is no reason to be conservative when it comes to risk taking. If you consider the potential of failure too damaging, that gives you pause, and you may consider stagnation worth not incurring that risk.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alcar View Post
    Combining both. Choosing one or two very ambitious goals and, then, looking for modest goals that, once attained, should make the very ambitious goals more reachable. Basically, using the very ambitious goals as a modest goal generator.

    I would add that very ambitious goals can be modulated over time. Sometimes, you discover that the goal is actually pointless or you make it more meaningful, so you change it.
    Yeah you can try combining them, but that lends itself to its own set of problems: Like dividing your focus among too many goals.

    Even if you try combining both approaches, because assessment is dependent on self awareness and understanding of the world and the challenges ahead, different people will err towards either side even if they are aiming for a middle ground. Not to mention what comes across as conservative to you, would be recklessness to someone else.
    Last edited by Necrofantasia; 08-16-2019 at 10:43 AM.
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  10. #10
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by Venoshock View Post
    It isn't necessarily a false dichotomy, because in trying to reach the middle ground, you will err for one side or the other based on your self perception and self awareness. If you consider yourself adaptable, there is no reason to be conservative when it comes to risk taking. If you consider the potential of failure too damaging, that gives you pause, and you may consider stagnation worth not incurring that risk.
    It's not a middle ground, it is a different approach to. The process itself is adaptable, an empiric journey of discovery.


     
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