[INTP] seriously, how hard does it take to convince an INTP?

seriously, how hard does it take to convince an INTP?

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This is a discussion on seriously, how hard does it take to convince an INTP? within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; so, i have a very good friend and dad who's INTP. i find it extremely difficult to reason with them. ...

  1. #1
    INTJ - The Scientists

    seriously, how hard does it take to convince an INTP?

    so, i have a very good friend and dad who's INTP. i find it extremely difficult to reason with them. despite always having the superior argument(friends/brother who listen in that were already in favour or got convinced by my statements), they refuse to accept and cite inability to articulate thoughts or come up with warped logic and refuse to back down.
    i suspect this is due to them having their thoughts overly-internalized and constructed. so much so that it is hard for them to break down this forged structure despite it's building blocks that may be flawed. it get's extremely frustrating when the whole family starts to see and undertand my point of view but the INTP rambles on and defends his logic and that i'm asked to take a step back by my family member who sees that it is going nowhere.

    i'm going to make a disclaimer that the above is definitely from my perspective and if told by the other party, could differ. but i would like to mention that i try to describe as objectively as i can. obviously there are instances whereby i was wrong in arguments but i do take it on the chin and shut up the moment i realise i'm wrong.
    for me, i dont always think that i'm right, but i believe that i'm usually not wrong. also, avoiding compromising situations is my first nature(e.g. i only speak for something only when i'm certain is right, or if i'm not sure, i will add a disclaimer, etc).

    so the question is, how can i actually convince an INTP? logical reasoning gets us nowhere. when it comes to debating, sure both of us enjoy the verbal sparring but it does get to a point where it irritates me since INTP is rejecting my reasoning alot invalidly.

    i also like to note that there are instances whereby they actually eventually agreed with my stand. but that actually took a hell lot of time, for them to see repeated results that continually reject their theory.

    lastly, i would like to note that in no way i'm trying to discriminate against INTPs since althougha intelligence level could have some correlation to this personality thingy, i'm not in the view of INTP => smart, XXXX => dumb.

    so how do i win INTPs over with ease? what is the key? hope to get some good response. keep it friendly please, cheers

    update 2:i feel like i'm getting more constructive responses. to those who put heart into coming up with helpful responses, thank you.
    regarding the defensive responses, i really don't see a need to defend "one's pack". there could be a need to highlight again that i'm not pitting myself against the INTPs, nor do i think that INTPs are inferior by default, since it's down to the individual. i respect the people here and i do hope to get mutual respect in return.
    of course if one still sees a need in playing the antagonist, i'm powerless to stop you.

    i do note that my question can be quite general and vague as mentioned. however, neither do i expect a very concise solution for it. i just want to know what do you think is a more acceptable approach in trying to win majority of the INTPs over, which i could then attempt to replicate the solution when dealing with the INTPs around me. e.g. what are their key focuses in an argument? how do we stop the stubbornness in them?

    one example argument: the questions over the benefits of going to school. i'm in favour of how attending formal school is just another opportunity in life and if we do come across something that seems more promising, we should not be fearful of giving up formal education in pursuit of it. however, my dad strongly refutes this and is adamant that formal education should come first before every other opportunity. my mum agreed with him alot from the start and my brother sat on the fence, but recently my mum started accepting my ideas after i was able to break down her mental barrier to accepting new ideas. so i was actually able to explain to her through qualitative reasoning and quantifying theoretical situations and she would start to understand my POV through clarifying her doubts and further questioning my answers again. my brother also becomes more open about his stand(in my favour) since his neutrality approach in the first place was to try to resolve the "conflict" (ENFP -avoid conflicts, or what is percieved to be as a conflict, lol) but failed. in this given scenario, i can accept that formal education could just be the best opportunity one can have, but unlike my dad, i dont blatantly deny that there could be no better opportunities, that one cannot give up school for.

    hope to get more good replies, thanks guys
    Last edited by supeyrio; 03-31-2011 at 03:32 AM.
    Emerson thanked this post.



  2. #2
    INTP - The Thinkers

    I am quite baffled by the fact that you managed to spell no as know, and yet you spelled definitely properly.

  3. #3
    Unknown Personality

    I'm not going to speak for all INTPs, but I have trouble articulating my thoughts as well, and they're far less organised than most people's, so I dunno what that's about. Give an example of an argument.

    >logical reasoning gets us nowhere

    YOUR FACE GETS US NOWHERE.
    Treeton, Snakecharmer and Paragon thanked this post.

  4. #4
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kakarookee View Post
    I am quite baffled by the fact that you managed to spell no as know, and yet you spelled definitely properly.
    blame it on the spell-checker[it would fix "definitely" if misspelled but see no reason to mess with "know" witch is a valid dictionary word ] - happens to me all the time.
    Last edited by peddroelm; 03-30-2011 at 11:10 AM. Reason: clarifying
    Monkey King and Nirrith thanked this post.

  5. #5
    INTP - The Thinkers

    If your argument is superior, and you know it well, then you can articulate it in a manner that can convince anyone. If you notice a flaw in his logic, point it out! People are likely to change their minds due to charisma of the speaker, appeal to emotion and authority and other non-valid arguments, so the fact that others agree with you proves nothing. If you cannot convince someone else of your point there are only two possible options:
    1) Your argument is not valid and the other person sees this
    2) Your argument is valid, but your articulation cannot be understood by the receiver, either because you are actually unclear, or because you have failed to explain the entire train of thought to a person with different methods of thinking and judging.

    With an INTP both options are entirely possible.

    If an INTP has thought about the subject it is very likely that he/she has a very clearly defined idea of what would convince him/her into changing ones mind. Try asking if there is such a criteria, and see if you can fullfill it. Also, while INTPs almost always have very logical ways of thinking, the words "logical way" might not be understood by others as the same. He/she might be structured in thought, alas in a different way than you are. This is why it is important to figure out what are the underlying reasonings behind both points, and to dissolve them into very basic factual claims.

    After all, most flaws in reasoning are not due to reasoning itself, but due to misunderstood basic statements.
    Ben, Kilgore Trout, darksoul and 8 others thanked this post.

  6. #6
    Unknown Personality

    Quote Originally Posted by MarxistMusketeer View Post
    If your argument is superior, and you know it well, then you can articulate it in a manner that can convince anyone. If you notice a flaw in his logic, point it out! People are likely to change their minds due to charisma of the speaker, appeal to emotion and authority and other non-valid arguments, so the fact that others agree with you proves nothing. If you cannot convince someone else of your point there are only two possible options:
    1) Your argument is not valid and the other person sees this
    2) Your argument is valid, but your articulation cannot be understood by the receiver, either because you are actually unclear, or because you have failed to explain the entire train of thought to a person with different methods of thinking and judging.

    With an INTP both options are entirely possible.
    3)You're argument is valid and was articulated in amanner that the listener understood it, but you made some grammatical error, or skipped a logical step and your entire argument is therefor invalid.
    Fiddler, TJSeabury, Westdoc and 2 others thanked this post.

  7. #7
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterLiver View Post
    3)You're argument is valid and was articulated in amanner that the listener understood it, but you made some grammatical error, or skipped a logical step and your entire argument is therefor invalid.
    If you make a very critical mistake in presenting the logic, it is then possible that you have made an assumption yourself and actually do not fully understand the logic yourself, even if the original claim was valid. This is my biggest fear personally, and I always try to dissolve my logic into the very atoms of underlying reasoning.
    NeedMoreKnowledge, TJSeabury and k4ren thanked this post.

  8. #8
    Unknown Personality

    Quote Originally Posted by MarxistMusketeer View Post
    If you make a very critical mistake in presenting the logic, it is then possible that you have made an assumption yourself and actually do not fully understand the logic yourself, even if the original claim was valid. This is my biggest fear personally, and I always try to dissolve my logic into the very atoms of underlying reasoning.
    We all do. But it makes are arguments boring, rambling and ineffective.

  9. #9
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Boring? yes. slow? Yes. Effective? Certainly!

  10. #10
    Unknown Personality

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterLiver View Post
    3)You're argument is valid and was articulated in amanner that the listener understood it, but you made some grammatical error, or skipped a logical step and your entire argument is therefor invalid.
    ;alsdflj;sdfljk;asfd

    :D
    Treeton, Fiddler, The Unseen and 3 others thanked this post.


     
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