[INTP] Transgender: what is it?

Transgender: what is it?

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This is a discussion on Transgender: what is it? within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Logical question here. I don't understand it, I'm trying to (purely from a knowledge standpoint) but I truly have no ...

  1. #1
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Transgender: what is it?

    Logical question here. I don't understand it, I'm trying to (purely from a knowledge standpoint) but I truly have no idea.

    I don't see it being a full on mental disorder, I just don't. They understand that they are BIOLOGICALLY a certain gender, however they feel more attached to the other gender, so they change their identity. This doesn't scream mental disorder to me.

    What it COULD be is a type of personality disorder. Sorry, but I don't buy the whole "it's not a disorder if nobody gets hurt" thing. That makes no sense. You can't pick and chose based on circumstance, it's either a problem in the brain or it's not. Narcissists, sociopaths and pedophiles are born the way they are (at least I believe so), and I think we might have a similar thing with trans. You don't wake up one day and decide to identify as another gender, I believe it's gradual. I guarantee that in this case many people have struggled with "how they are different" (again not unlike narcissists, sociopaths and pedophiles). Yes, I do believe narcissists (TRUE narcissists) do realize they are different...underneath the self absorbing shell there is a sad, sad person. I know for a fact that certain sociopaths are depressed because they cannot feel emotion for others. You can care about the fact that you don't care, not that it'll make you care any more than you already do. Pedophiles...as long as they don't act on it, they are actually better off and get through life just fine, though I suppose not fully happy.

    Anyway, what is your opinion on trans? I'm really just brainstorming here because I got nothing. I am pretty much addicted to learning about the brain, personality disorders especially. I do think we need more logic, less "coddling" when it comes to this, though. People are too damn sensitive today.

    Isn't it sad that if I want to openly talk about this or have a question like this, this is the only place (online OR offline) that I can ask without people flipping out?
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  2. #2

    I'm still in bit of a mess over it myself and because of this I'll only provide resources detailing different view points, large read in most of them but could be interesting if curious enough to go through them.
    Can find a definition by the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation
    Transgender FAQ | GLAAD
     
    Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex the doctor marked on their birth certificate. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or someone outside of that gender binary). For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.People in the transgender community may describe themselves using one (or more) of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, and genderqueer. Always use the term preferred by the individual.

    Trying to change a person's gender identity is no more successful than trying to change a person's sexual orientation -- it doesn't work. So most transgender people seek to bring their bodies more into alignment with their gender identity.


    Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgeries as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and it's important to know that being transgender is not dependent upon medical procedures.


    Transgender is an adjective and should never be used as a noun. For example, rather than saying "Max is a transgender," say "Max is a transgender person." And transgender never needs an "-ed" at the end.

    Though this doesn't answer it, it does pose some resources on which the individual has examinined in their search to
    make a contribution towards assisting transgender persons to be able to define and talk about themselves in philosophy because the key to empowerment is the ability to define oneself by one‟s own terms.
    This may be a good overview of the difficult and evolving discussion around sex and gender.
    Feminist Perspectives on Sex and Gender (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    I've recently came across the work of a woman who seems critical of gender identity that I'm yet to read completely. But have had a skim through and I think it's a good overview to some of the tensions of 2nd and 3rd wave feminism on the subject.
    Sex and Gender | A Beginner's Guide
    Interestingly enough I found the prior link from a transwoman's tumblr, who herself is intriguingly critical of transgender as a concept.

    Another variation is this transwoman's perspective that divorces gender identity from gendered expression, sexual orientation or biology.
    There's more variations between these perspectives also.
    Overall I'm not sure it's necessarily been resolved as a subject and the discourse around it is evolving.
    Last edited by Wellsy; 09-10-2015 at 01:35 AM.

  3. #3

    ooh this thread should get interesting...

    Let's see some fire eh?

  4. #4
    Unknown Personality

    Quote Originally Posted by LinkToTheLast View Post
    ooh this thread should get interesting...
    Let's see some fire eh?
    Sava Saevus, Miss Anne Thrope and Monty thanked this post.

  5. #5
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by LinkToTheLast View Post
    ooh this thread should get interesting...

    Let's see some fire eh?
    Eh...this is the INTP forum. Unless an FJ comes over here I don't see anything getting out of hand.
    ninjahitsawall, TessaVictoria, Pazuzu and 2 others thanked this post.

  6. #6
    INTP - The Thinkers

    I think people confuse sexuality for gender, and in doing so go to wild lengths to alter their very bodies to make this identify more concrete, I simply don't understand why someone would go to the length of doing what essentially amounts to mutilating their own body to produce the physical representation of the gender they feel they were more inclined to.

    I know its not a popular opinion amongst SJW circles, but I think sexual dysfunction and mental disorder go hand in hand and the state of a person's mental health is absolutely valid when considering their actions in this regard. The fact of the matter is that we live in an immensely sexually repressed society, even worse in the third world than it is here, and the consequences of that are pronounced and sharp levels of sexual dysfunction and cognitive dissonance.

    Now, do I think there is anything "Morally" wrong with someone wanting to turn themselves inside out to fit an image? No. That's just silly, it has nothing to do with morality, but it has everything to do with impressionable children and the right kind of repressive atmosphere to create these kinds of phenomenon.

    I speak from experience when i say growing up in a christian household will get you a ticket to the freak show faster than most upbringings, but where some people see a laudable life decision , I see the mal-adaptive shadow being cast by their individual stressful life experiences.

    I mean, you identify as a man? Really? To the point that you're willing to get a surgeon in on it to seal the deal? Homogeneity doesn't bother me in the slightest, nor does even someone being transgender bother me that much for that matter, but where is it all coming from? We must just be shielding the collective population so far from any hint of open human sexuality that it has become a schizophrenic and wholly antisocial phenomenon now.

    EDIT:

    And Another thing, if somebody "Doesn't identify By gender" Then why are they identifying by the sexual organs of a gender? Do they make sport out of cognitive dissonance?

    Do they not think it's odd to say that on one hand they don't believe in the idea of men or women, while simultaneously taking hormones or undergoing surgery to adjust their biology to the precepts of one or the other?

    I mean men that identify as women take estrogen supplements, vice versa women that identify as men have testosterone hormone therapy. Am I missing something?
    Last edited by Urban Erudite; 09-10-2015 at 02:21 AM.
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  7. #7
    INTP

    Quote Originally Posted by mninp View Post
    You can't pick and chose based on circumstance, it's either a problem in the brain or it's not. Narcissists, sociopaths and pedophiles are born the way they are (at least I believe so)
    I disagree. A lot of it may be due to upbringing.

    That's where the problem lies.

    Some people will definitely feel innately like they are who they are. Others are just a symptom of social conditioning.

    For example, I do wonder why certain countries have more amounts of transgenders than others. Thailand springs to mind. Do they just have more people (actually, mostly males - I'm talking ladyboys here) within their borders who truly identify as the opposite gender? Or are there social factors involved too.

    I think the true examples are caused by a 'problem' in the brain - they're born a certain way which is different from the standard. However I'm willing to argue that a fair few of them have been conditioned to act in a certain way simply because of the life they were brought up into.

    So that's what I think of transgender people. There are a lot who clearly have battled with a serious personal psychological mission, and it's real to them, their brains are wired differently, and that's fine. But still I think there exists a small proportion who idealise certain things and go into it for the wrong reasons. This is largely connected to self-image and narcissism, which is entirely a social construct - consider there were no cases of anorexia on the island of Fiji until television and modern media was introduced. Certain mental conditions are induced by their surroundings.

    EDIT: This comes across as a denial of the existence of true transgenders, homosexuals, etc. I didn't mean that at all. I'm absolutely certain there will be people who have utterly felt that way for as long as they can remember (my youngest brother has definitely always been homosexual and we all knew it since he was about 6 years old..! And he isn't one of those annoying camp guys either.). I simply wanted to highlight that I don't think every case is truly just down to the individual being born with it. Some people are simply weak-minded and latch onto kooky image ideals to bulk out their personality.

  8. #8

    @Urban Erudite
    Confusion/uncertainty with sexuality wouldn't result in a transition of one's body though. A person would simply adopt a different sexual orientation/expression.
    So it seems strange that sexual repression is associated with transgender rather than say people who are in denial of their sexual orientation because they're socially condemned.
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  9. #9

    You might find this interesting.
    RoSoDude and ninjahitsawall thanked this post.

  10. #10
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by Wellsy View Post
    @Urban Erudite
    Confusion/uncertainty with sexuality wouldn't result in a transition of one's body though.
    A person would simply adopt a different sexual orientation/expression.
    Then I suppose we should get to work understanding how exactly people are driven to alter their bodies and not their sexual orientations and expressions, now shouldn't we?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wellsy View Post
    So it seems strange that sexual repression is associated with transgender rather than say people who are in denial of their sexual orientation because they're socially condemned.
    I disagree. And they are not mutually exclusive, especially when the "Expression" of one 'transgender' sexuality entails the Denial of their own anatomy. So you tell me what's the rundown on this schizoid relationship. One is a denial of mind, the other is a denial of body, but they are interlaced in ways that are intimately related to one another psycho-sexually.

    I don't think it's strange at all, but then I'm not an every man. If you fracture or associate the single most powerful biological imperative a human being has with a negative experience or cathex, it can lead them to do some very maladaptive things. Ask anyone that has been the victim of sexual abuse or came from an extremely sexually repressed family life, often times it steers their sexual behavior in malignant and self harmful ways that require extensive therapy to assess and overcome.

    A little off topic, but Stanislov Grof took on many hysterical and self harming cases where the persons involved in the study opened up about previous sexual abuse that lead them to interact with people in such a way that would reproduce the traumatic event in question, often at the expense of both mental and physical health of the patient. Some of them would put themselves in mortal danger just because they couldn't identify their own sexuality outside of hostile, recapitulating relationships that left them battered and mentally drained.

    So yeah, repression goes a loooong way, and I don't underplay it because I was born of it, and witness its effects on the people around me every day of my life.

    I'm not saying transgender persons need to be victimized or unduly demonized, because that's needless.

    But what I am saying is that if you think that your gender is a "Social Construct", then you've got to be literally out of your mind to believe that, and transparently out of touch with your own anatomy.

    Because the people taking hormones know damn well that gender exists, and they affirm it every time they adjust their biology by...Consuming GENDER altering hormones!

    I mean these attitudes are so silly that it's probably going to run us up a wall in the next decade talking about...Trans-Race Issues. I Shit you not. It's only fair isn't it? Why can't white people identify as black? And vice versa?

    (Hint: Because there's nothing inherently wrong with being born with brown skin, any more than there is something wrong about being born with male genitalia)

    Are you beginning to understand how convoluted and ridiculous this nonsense is going to get? Biology is the Hard-Line, it's how people think about themselves and their relationships with one another that is the problem, Not Human biology, Biology is just the setting.

    I mean I hate to say it but I almost consider the stance of passive reaffirming these phenomenon to be Worse than people that hate gays, because what you're essentially affirming to people, though you may not realize it is:

    "Yeah, you're totally right, your inclination that your gender is a problem, (a fact that was by no means any fault of your own), is correct, your natural born sexual organs are all wrong, and your biology is Wrong, and you should totally take extensive and expensive surgical and hormonal methods to correct your wrong nature".

    Original sin anyone?
    Last edited by Urban Erudite; 09-10-2015 at 03:56 AM.


     
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