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How would you rate your conviction?

  • There has never been a conspiracy in the History of the United States.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
12K views 193 replies 36 participants last post by  Urban Erudite 
#1 · (Edited)
(If TLDR; Skip to the bottom, answer the poll, and share you thoughts, thanks!)

I came to politics in a very formal manner, a left advocate of social change and systematic weeding out of corruption, but just as soon as I was becoming disenchanted and loathsome of the entire impotent process, I ran into a group of new friends that altered my understanding of what the world was and what geopolitical affairs meant for the people that had a mind to manipulate.

I've gone from surface level 'politics', i.e. the affairs of politicians and bureaucrats, to Meta-Politics, the politics of how surface level politics are born, and where they actually issue command from. There are usually prime movers that are more or less invisible to the public media, though finding out what they hold in common is a fairly simple task that requires research into, among other things:

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1)The Military Industrial Complex
2)The Monetary schema of the U.S. and Europe
3)The Corporate Media Empire of the West

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All of which stand as pillars to the continued hegemony of western civilization's domination over economic and political affairs.

You see, once you understand that a human life only lasts so long, and that in the cycle of generations you have to actively propagandize and acclimate new people to war or hierarchy, you begin to form a larger, holographic image of what is happening inside the realm of politics above the peripheral surface level of all these talking heads.

You get an image that represents the combined efforts of powerful and mindful individuals to maintain control over populations of people that, without constant supervision and indoctrination, would no longer identify by State or empty platitudes of "Proud to be an American, Where at least I know I'm Free".

Generations of humans have to be constantly reminded who they hate, what they're going to war for, and why they are all common in cause with expensive, extensive media campaigns and influence, otherwise the illusions would likely dissolve and the wheel would be broken.

I, personally, Don't think Conspiracies are just Probable to maintain such feats, I think they are Absolutely Necessary.



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So my question follows: Are you NOT a believer in the concept of conspiracies? If not, Why so? If so, which ones and what is your rationale?

I leave you with the sage words of former C.I.A. senior operations agent Duane "Dewey" Clarridge in his rebuttal to accusations following the exposing of the Iran-Contra Drug smuggling scandal during his time as senior officer.


 

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#2 ·
I, personally, Don't think Conspiracies are just Probable to maintain such feats, I think they are Absolutely Necessary.

The real issue here is why you capitalized so many unnecessary words. Certainly it wasn't an accident. I smell deeper motives. Trying to control us? Send subliminal messages? Ahh! It's a conspiracy!
 
#3 ·
My friend was telling me about this conspiracy that's really crazy something about fema and having boxes the size of dead bodies and russia wanting to take us over and a universal currency and taking our guns away and stocking up on tanks and then something about the bible and "babylon" and the pope and obama and the antichrist and i was confused and scared. </3 No, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.
 
#4 ·
I mean, conspiracies happen from time to time obviously. Conspiracies generally come out sooner or later though. You know how many people would have to be successfully bribed to keep a fake moon landing secret? Every single last person involved right down to the janitor who cleaned up the set. The more people a conspiracy involves, the more likely it is to collapse under its own weight, which is one of many reasons that most of the popular conspiracy theories are bull. For an accurate depiction of what a government conspiracy usually looks like, look at the Watergate scandal.

Anyway, INFJ board is <-- thattaway
 
#9 ·
Granted, there are things going on that people don't know about, but I don't believe in the competence of most people to keep up any significant ruse over a period of time.

*Although, the spell-checker on this site is putting a squiggly line under "ruse" which makes me think there is a vast conspiracy to convince people to use more simplistic and commonplace words. This will contribute to the dumbing down of humanity to the point that it won't take a complicated conspiracy to control the masses. Any moron will be able to do it.
 
#12 ·
I think people, perhaps INTPs in particular because of that weak Fe, tend to project their understanding of the world onto other people. I think everyone is vastly overcalculating the intelligence of the average human being. Or they simply lack the creativity to see how it would function.

Remember, just because you can't concieve of how it is I stole your sandwhich, is not necessarily an omission that I could not have possibly stolen your sandwhich. 'Tis a classical fallacy. Debunkers and debunkees alike use it.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity
 
#10 ·
From an alternate perspective, marketing wants as needs is probably the most commonplace conspiracy. Or more specifically, creating bedrock societal truths where none exist. For instance, making bacon and eggs the quintessential breakfast food. Or even creating the myth that some foods are more or less acceptable to eat at breakfast.

Taken from "Propaganda" by ED Bernays:

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
 
#11 ·
From an alternate perspective, marketing wants as needs is probably the most commonplace conspiracy. Or more specifically, creating bedrock societal truths where none exist. For instance, making bacon and eggs the quintessential breakfast food. Or even creating the myth that some foods are more or less acceptable to eat at breakfast.

Taken from "Propaganda" by ED Bernays:

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
I'm sorry, are you saying bacon and eggs are not a universal, first meal of the day requirement? Looks like somebody needs to remove their tinfoil hat.
 
#17 ·
thank god people here are quoting bernays.

I studied Bernays as part of my training in propoganda for the military. I worked as an adjuct in psyops and intel writing basically what amounts to marketing scripts and narratives for Americans, Iraqis & military seniors as well as an occasional representative. I can't talk about some of the stuff that I did, but let me put it this way

I am not a right-wing religious fundamentalist
I am not a marxist or aligned with any political party

but I 150% believe, based on my knowledge of how the military psyops community works and is organized as well as my own training and the fact that I was being groomed for a higher position in psyops and based on the knowledge of friends who moved into more nefarious positions of classified information, etc, that the government or some higher power is totally capable of massive subversion, to the point that they would make 9/11 a hit job. I know for a fact that AQ was a psyop creation from CIA as were some other insurgent groups. I can't speak about how I know but I know and even if I could say there is plenty of media evidence to show that this is true.

It's no lie that the petrodollar/banking system is devaluing the western world or that we are in proxy wars with Russia via Syria and the Czechoslovakia.

I'm not sure how any of the above falls into a conspiracy theory. I didn't make it high up into the psy op community but I went far enough to see how much we are and were lying to the American people/the world. I don't believe in the Apocalypse bs Babylon stuff that fundamentalists teach but I also recognize our senators and congressmen are probably working for something/one higher than the US govn't.

Personal theories: I think CIA has taken over the central government. It's a theory, but I have no other explanation for why some of the weird shit I saw go down has gone down. Since my work in intel the CIA community has made aggressive maneuvers to bring parts of the FBI/DEA and military NCIS and Intel communities on board with their mission, encouraging a kind of virtual one-sided transparency into other organizations. CIA is the only branch totally immune to NSA, which has surveillance of all other aspects of the DOJ. It's really weird. It's like CIA is its own sovereignty, immune to anyone or anything, including representatives and congress. They can make anyone disappear. Anyone. That community has the virtual power of immunity. They run the drug trade in Afghan and other parts of Europe and have some kind of play in C.America though I have no friends who work in that area, so just assuming based on what I know they are capable of.

Also, the CIA has some great programs that specialize in misinformation. I think alot of the "conspiracy theory" sites that sound like nut jobs are actually funded by them. We did similar stuff in Iraq and Afgah and it really works well. It's probably the best strategy I've seen to date.

Wish I could talk more about what I've done but I can't. Maybe in twenty years when everything's released. There are still things my trainers from the 'Nam era can't talk about.
 
#18 ·
Personal theories: I think CIA has taken over the central government. It's a theory, but I have no other explanation for why some of the weird shit I saw go down has gone down. Since my work in intel the CIA community has made aggressive maneuvers to bring parts of the FBI/DEA and military NCIS and Intel communities on board with their mission, encouraging a kind of virtual one-sided transparency into other organizations. CIA is the only branch totally immune to NSA, which has surveillance of all other aspects of the DOJ. It's really weird. It's like CIA is its own sovereignty, immune to anyone or anything, including representatives and congress. They can make anyone disappear. Anyone. That community has the virtual power of immunity. They run the drug trade in Afghan and other parts of Europe and have some kind of play in C.America though I have no friends who work in that area, so just assuming based on what I know they are capable of.
Oh yes indeed my friend, the CIA has gotten very big for its britches in the last few decades, so big in fact, that its arguably the strongest organization in foreign affairs right now, it's become a bit of a rogue element, and I don't think people anticipated just how powerful it would become. Though it's not that surprising given their modus operandi as subversion.

Also, the CIA has some great programs that specialize in misinformation. I think alot of the "conspiracy theory" sites that sound like nut jobs are actually funded by them. We did similar stuff in Iraq and Afgah and it really works well. It's probably the best strategy I've seen to date.

Wish I could talk more about what I've done but I can't. Maybe in twenty years when everything's released. There are still things my trainers from the 'Nam era can't talk about.
I'm not sure if it was my friend or I that came up with the idea that Alex Jones must be controlled opposition, but the way that man behaves with his contacts and with his information tells me that he is playing the role of a bug zapper, someone loud and noisy, with legit inside information, but it's being used to discredit and delay.

There's a lot of that stuff going on in the not so underground of American intelligence. There's many that (Rightfully) believe that there were agent provocateurs and informants gathering information on the behaviors of protestors in the Occupy Wall Street Movement as well as instigating violence among themselves.

This has become a big budget item lately, the stakes are higher now than ever, so I suppose it only makes sense that they seed the playing field with their agents.

 
#23 ·
@Urban Erudite, I tried watching that video clip, I really did. But all I could do was give creeped-out laugh whenever the narrator spoke...which was too often for me to actually hear what he was saying.

It's pretty well know CIA had programs for remote viewing which occasionally they revisit. The program was cancelled because although they had 65%-75% success with their RV's that margin is just too slim to operate on. I've tried RV several times and I'd say with practice you can get eerily close to accurate. I wouldn't put my beans in one basket if some guy told me to bet on what he'd saw RVing but still, the weirdness is too real to ignore. After reading their reports about RV (some of which you can find easily on Google) not even the attempt to slay a goat with stares would surprise me.

I forgot to mention about SERE school & deprivation torture. I'm not sure where the mind goes when it can't handle stuff and I can't explain it but if you've ever been stripped naked, hosed off in icy cold water and then left alone in a pool of body-temp level water in the dark tell me what you see. I'm not sure where my brain decided to go when I was in the tank but I'm pretty sure I left my body and saw something like aliens. No joke. They say it's called seeing your "Boogie." Not everyone gets it but it's common enough that the trainers had a name for it. I was only left in there for a half hour, maybe less. It felt like an eternity and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. I'm not sure what the point of that exercise was. Iraqis don't have enough water to create a lukewarm depro tank, let alone the resources to carry one around for theoretically captured enemies. Afterwards I asked about it but like everything in the military, it was ridden off as a joke. I honestly have no idea what happened in there to this day. I'd like to think I keep my rational hat on, but I really have no way of explaining what happened or why we needed to meet our "Boogie."
 
#24 ·
@Urban Erudite , I tried watching that video clip, I really did. But all I could do was give creeped-out laugh whenever the narrator spoke...which was too often for me to actually hear what he was saying.

It's pretty well know CIA had programs for remote viewing which occasionally they revisit. The program was cancelled because although they had 65%-75% success with their RV's that margin is just too slim to operate on. I've tried RV several times and I'd say with practice you can get eerily close to accurate. I wouldn't put my beans in one basket if some guy told me to bet on what he'd saw RVing but still, the weirdness is too real to ignore. After reading their reports about RV (some of which you can find easily on Google) not even the attempt to slay a goat with stares would surprise me.
The problem with that is that there are goats that are 'myotonic' meaning that they have a tendency to faint, stiffen up their muscles, or otherwise appear unconscious/dead when sufficiently startled/excited. The test was conducted on goats because they knew the goats would sooner or later fall over. The test conductors were aware of this, it was an exercise in confirmation bias. They wanted to believe the men staring at the goats could actually make them faint with their minds, because all they had to do was wait.



I forgot to mention about SERE school & deprivation torture. I'm not sure where the mind goes when it can't handle stuff and I can't explain it but if you've ever been stripped naked, hosed off in icy cold water and then left alone in a pool of body-temp level water in the dark tell me what you see. I'm not sure where my brain decided to go when I was in the tank but I'm pretty sure I left my body and saw something like aliens. No joke. They say it's called seeing your "Boogie." Not everyone gets it but it's common enough that the trainers had a name for it.
There is truth to archetypes. Angels, demons, aliens, they all have a common human symbological ancestry. These are just the names we give to persistent human archetypal imagery, so maybe whatever people are experiencing is some kind of perceptual habit prone to all human life. Because its certainly not uncommon.

Sensory deprivation tanks I hear produce somewhat similar phenomenon, I think it's just the brain's feedback loop echoing louder and louder because sensation outside of itself is muted. It "expects" to have sensory input, but it gets nothing, so it behaves as if its receiving signals even in the absence of them.
 
#26 · (Edited)
It would almost be comforting to ascribe the state of the world (btws mine is not as negative as some) to some uber, malign hand directing the course of human history. I just don't buy it. I figure the world is where it's at for two broad reasons 1) humans are shortsighted and 2) we are designed to forward what's best for us right now, not 'what's best for everyone in 7 to 10 decades.' Banks and governments do have dubious morals, the media does manipulate us, businesses do like to expand their influence. But they're not all part of the same thing, they're powerful people/groups forwarding their own (relatively) immediate agenda. Over time they sorta drunkenly stumbled into each other's arms and become a weird, disjointed chimera, each bit still doing its own thing but contributing to a massive yet not sentient whole.

Which isn't to say there aren't ANY conspiracies. There are [stares at CIA] just not really big ones. I think conspiracy theorists, like the big ones with the lizard people and illuminati and shadowy puppet masters are just regular people that have found that kind of certainty we all crave in a somewhat atypical way. Making order/sense and meaning out of something that inherently lacks such.
 
#52 ·
Which isn't to say there aren't ANY conspiracies. There are [stares at CIA] just not really big ones. I think conspiracy theorists, like the big ones with the lizard people and illuminati and shadowy puppet masters are just regular people that have found that kind of certainty we all crave in a somewhat atypical way. Making order/sense and meaning out of something that inherently lacks such.
My buddy has an interesting theory about david icke, and many of these new age archaeologists as well. If you pay attention to what it is that David Icke is saying, it's not insane at all, well it's insane, but every once and a while he says something...off. Something that doesn't feel like it belongs in the category of new age anything, it's a political prescription with real world consequences.

I don't think people like david icke are stupid, I think they understand their audience, and they're grooming people towards certain behaviors and attitudes.
 
#27 ·
The term 'conspiracy theory' itself is propaganda tool cooked up by the CIA in order to discredit any dissent when it comes to maintaining control. Now they can taint legitimate concerns by lumping them in with the weirdness...'Think we don't have your best interest at heart, citizen? Next you'll be telling us the moon landing was faked.'
 
#28 ·
To think, for instance, that the CIA doesn't do top secret, illegal and immoral shit, especially given all we now know from leaked documents and what can be logically deduced from their set-up and structure within the government, their powers, and their purpose, is beyond naive. However, to think that the moon landing was staged is laughably stupid and makes no sense whatsoever. It's astoundingly facile to argue about things you don't understand like the missing stars in photos and miss all the things staring you in the face that refute it all, like the fact that a conspiracy of that magnitude involving thousands of engineers and scientists couldn't keep that secret at all, and especially keep it 50 years later; that's just not how humans behave.
 
#29 · (Edited)
that's just not how humans behave.
@Fredward Alan Moore sums it all up in this clip, which I largely agree with.



Edit: It's less that there are or aren't conspiracy theories and more that we as Millennials were raised by largely idealistic Boomers who refused to believe that their country was normal like other countries. The refusal by the majority of Americans to see the USA for what it really is (a nation state interested in extending its own sovereignty, influence and agenda as other nation states before it) was not only naive, it was perhaps or perhaps not part of the propaganda that spilled over from WWII. They just never stopped eating it up. America could do no wrong- they all got "high" on being the saviors of Europe.

If we had never been the repeat heroes of the WW's would be really be so idealistic about our country? The hubris people have about America is utterly astonishing. No CIA/Illuminati/Shadow Puppet/Lizard could program the human heart to that degree. The masses are more than capable of succumbing to the one hidden government which rules them 27/7: their ego.

In that sense I think some "conspiracy theories" are just facts that American's literally can't deal with because it's ego-crushing. The idea that ppl in power are hardballing it and playing cutthroat as have those who've gone before reels the average, simple WASP mind that wants all the benefits of power but the sanctity of spirituality. The two don't mesh and when the hypocrisy is exposed it's becomes more than human foible, it becomes a "conspiracy."
 
#32 · (Edited)
The majority of sinister political motivations are simple (greed, power, influence) and easily detected, and what massive geopolitical blunders we've made have been public as well as transparent (at least to the analytical thinker) and range from manifestations of the above mentioned motivators, to general incompetence and shortsightedness within the ranks of government, to systemic denial of accountability, and various ethical failings - with information of this damning nature already readily available (or easily and rationally hypothesized), why delude yourself with fanciful and highly improbable explanations? Using a conspiracy theory to describe reality is like using a cinder block to drive nails - sure it works, but the cinder block is an awkward tool that breaks very easily, and a simple, perfectly rational hammer is better suited for the job.

I loathe arguing with conspiracy theorists - while their intentions of helping society are good, they are blind to the relatively simple root causes of their complaints, they are wasting their (potentially) valuable energy fighting phantoms (when real political enemies are plenty), they often come to believe that violence is a viable solution (while preaching love), they are self righteous and willfully ignorant, and they only serve to drag others down with them.

Here's a comic you've probably already seen (but which I love):

Who knew ponies were libertarians? I guess it makes sense.
 
#36 ·
I understand what you are saying and think we are of a similar frame of mind. What do you think of WTC7?

And if you take into consideration how long it takes to set up a controlled demolition (days, not hours), what can you conclude about WTC7?

Can a demolition even be set up in the chaos of the day that was 9/11? If not than was it set up prior to 9/11?


 
#33 ·
Conspiracy imo is a quite broad term for quite some extremes and less extremes.
There are people that believe in: Aliens that rule us, lizardpeople, chemtrails, and other 'totally spies' stuff.
I don't think they are the same as people that believe in some mechanics in this world being corrupt.
For sure there will be some people who plot to get whatever they want and some even become succesful with it.
Manipulation also happens almost everywhere, on big or small scale.

However, to call it one conspiracy of whatever group to play with the world and the people, I don't know.
Honestly, I've worked in alot of companies and most things that 'went wrong' , went wrong because people are stupid, reckless, greedy or careless.
I consider it the same on all levels, although the less responsibility, the less likely it will influence much and therefore look less bad or even 'different'.
Therefore, I think alot of stuff which is believed to be 'an evil conspiracy' is nothing else than someone exploiting a loophole somewhere, created by another, not per sé on purpose.

The only thing which sometimes passes my mind, for example with politics, is the 'don't they see that it will... <fill in whatever stupid/bad/lame thing>'.
It makes one wonder if there is more behind it, simply because it can't be just that stupid, one would say, but, sad to acknowledge from all my experience, most of the time they are.

In the end, some conspiracies will prove to be 'true', most will not.
The simple part where most conspiracy theories lose me, is assuming an assumption, to address a likely happened assumption, to prove that there may have been a definate assumption, that there has been made an assumption.
 
#34 ·
It isn't as simple as believing or not believing in conspiracy theories.

Some have proven to be true, and some are just ridiculous.

True Government Conspiracies - Business Insider

9 Huge Government Conspiracies That Actually Happened

We all know the conspiracy theories — the government's plan for 9/11, the second gunman who shot JFK, the evolution of the elite from a race of blood-drinking, shape-shifting lizards.

But the people who spread these ideas usually can't prove them.

As the years pass, however, secrets surface. Government documents become declassified. We now have evidence of certain elaborate government schemes right here in the U.S. of A.

1. The U.S. Department of the Treasury poisoned alcohol during Prohibition — and people died.

The 18th Amendment, which took effect in January 1920, banned the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol — but not consumption. Despite the government's efforts, alcoholism actually skyrocketed during the era.

To keep up with America's thirst, bootleggers not only created their own alcohol but also stole industrial versions, rendered undrinkable by the inclusion of certain chemicals (namely methyl alcohol). Liquor syndicates then employed chemists to "re-nature" the alcohol once again, making it safe for consumption, according to Deborah Blum, author of "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York."

By mid-1927, however, the U.S. government added much deadlier chemicals — kerosene, chloroform, and acetone among those most well known — which made alcohol more difficult to render consumable again. Adding 10% more methyl alcohol caused the worst efforts.

Although New York City's chief medical examiner, Charles Norris, tried to publicize the dangers, in 1926, poisonous alcohol killed 400 in the city. The next year, 700 died.

2. The U.S. Public Health Service lied about treating black men with syphilis for more than 40 years.

In 1932, the Public Health Service collaborated with the Tuskegee Institute to record the history of syphilis in the black male community, hoping to justify a treatment program.

Called the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the ***** Male, the study initially included 600 black men — 399 with the disease and 201 without. While the men were told they would receive treatment, however, the researchers never provided adequate treatment for the disease. Even when penicillin became the preferred and available treatment for syphilis, researchers kept their subjects in the dark.

Although originally planned to last only six months, the experiment continued for 40 years. Finally, in 1972, an Associated Press article prompted public outrage and a subsequent investigation. A government advisory panel deemed the study "ethically irresponsible" and research ended almost immediately.

As a result, the government settled a class-action lawsuit out of court in 1974 for $10 million and lifetime health benefits for all participants, the last of whom died in 2004.

3. More than 100 million Americans received a polio vaccine contaminated with a potentially cancer-causing virus.

From 1954 to 1961, simian virus 40 (SV40) somehow showed up in polio vaccines, according to the American Journal of Cancer. Researchers estimate 98 million people in the U.S. and even more worldwide received contaminated inoculations.

Jonas Salk, known creator of the inactivated polio vaccine, used cells from rhesus monkeys infected with SV40, according to president of the National Vaccine Information Center Barbara Fisher, who testified before the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness in the U.S. House of Representatives on this matter in 2003, after researching the situation for 10 years.

The federal government changed oral vaccine stipulations in 1961 — which didn't include Salk's inactivated polio vaccine — specifically citing SV40. But medical professionals continued to administer tainted vaccines until 1963, according to Michael E. Horwin writing for the Albany Law Journal of Science and Technology in 2003. And even after 1961, the American Journal of Cancer found contaminated oral vaccines.

Although researchers know SV40 causes cancer in animals, opinions vary on a direct link between the virus and cancer in humans. Independent studies, however, have identified SV40 in brain and lung tumors of children and adults.

The Centers for Disease Control did post a fact sheet acknowledging the presence of SV40 in polio vaccines but has since removed it, according to Medical Daily.

4. Parts of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which led to U.S. intervention in Vietnam, never happened.

After evading a torpedo attack, the USS Maddox reportedly engaged three North Vietnamese boats in the Gulf of Tonkin on both Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, according to the Pentagon Papers. Although without U.S. casualties, the events prompted Congress to pass a resolution allowing President Lyndon John to intervene in the Southeast.

Talk of Tonkin's status as a "false flag" for U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War has permeated public discourse almost since the time of the attacks, especially after the government admitted that the second incident may have involved false radar images.

But after resisting comment for decades, the National Security Agency finally declassified documents in 2005, admitting the incident on Aug. 4 never happened at all.

Those involved didn't necessarily intend to cover-up the incident to propagate a war. But the evidence does suggest "an active effort to make SIGINT fit the claim of what happened during the evening of 4 August in the Gulf of Tonkin,"according to NSA historian Robert J. Hanyok.

5. Military leaders reportedly planned terrorist attacks in the U.S. to drum up support for a war against Cuba.

In 1962, the joint chiefs-of-staff approved Operation Northwoods, a covert plan to create support for a war in Cuba that would oust communist leader Fidel Castro.

Declassified government documents show considerations included: host funerals for "mock-victims," "start rumors (many)," and "blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba." They even suggested somehow pinning John Glenn's potential death, should his rocket explode, on communists in Cuba.

The advisors presented the plan to President Kennedy's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, according to investigative journalist James Bamford's book, "Body of Secrets." We don't know whether McNamara immediately refused, but a few days later, Kennedy told Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, the plan's poo-bah, that the U.S. would never use overt force to take Cuba.

A few months later, Lemnitzer lost his position.

"There really was a worry at the time about the military going off crazy and they did, but they never succeeded, but it wasn't for lack of trying," Bamford told ABC News.

6. The government tested the effects of LSD on unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens.

Under the code name "MKUltra," the U.S. government ran a human-research operation within the CIA's Scientific Research Division. Researchers tested the effects of hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, torture, and most memorably, LSD, on U.S. and Canadian citizens. Most had no idea.

To conduct these experiments, the CIA paid prisons, hospitals, and other institutions to keep quiet. The department even enticed heroin addicts to participate by offering them heroin, according to documents from a joint hearing to subcommittees of Congress, where President Kennedy spoke.

That day, he regaled Congress with "chilling testimony." Over 30 universities became involved in various studies. Notably, many lacked oversight by medical or scientific professionals. At least one participant, Frank Olsen, died, reportedly from suicide after unknowingly ingesting LSD.

In January 1973, then CIA Director Richard Helms ordered the destruction of all documents pertaining to MKUltra. When Congress looked into the matter, no one, not even Helms, could "remember" details. Through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, more documents were located, but the full timeline remains incomplete.

The events inspired investigative journalist Jon Ronson's best-selling book, "The Men Who Stare At Goats," now a movie of the same title starring George Clooney.

7. In 1974, the CIA secretly resurfaced a sunken Soviet submarine with three nuclear-armed ballistic missiles.

The CIA's secret "Project Azorian" aimed to raise a sunken Soviet submarine from the floor of the Pacific Ocean to retrieve three nuclear-armed ballistic missiles, each carrying a one megaton nuclear warhead.

With President Nixon's approval, CIA director Richard Helms placed all the plans in a secret file called "Jennifer," thus keeping the information from everyone but a select number of government officials.

After a FOIA, the NSA finally published an article from the CIA's in-house journal, Studies in Intelligence, revealing that the department succeeded in resurfacing portions of the sub, named K-129.

The CIA redacted text in these documents that prevent determining the operation's exact level of success, but the crew of the Glomar Explorer, the recovery ship, did haul contents to Hawaii for unloading.

8. The U.S. government sold weapons to Iran, violating an embargo, and used the money to support Nicaraguan militants.

In 1985, senior officials in the Reagan administration facilitated the sale of arms to Iran, then under embargo. The government, with the National Security Council's Oliver North acting as a key player, later used the profits to fund the Contras, anti-communist rebels, in Nicaragua.

The whole situation began with seven American hostages taken by a hostile group in Lebanon with ties to Iran. Through an elaborate exchange involving Israel, the U.S. planned to sell weapons to Iran in exchange for the hostages' freedom. The situation quickly derailed, although the Lebanese did release all but two hostages.

After a leak from an Iranian, the situation finally came to light in 1986. After repeatedly denying any involvement, the Reagan administration underwent 41 days of congressional hearings, according to Brown University's research project on the scandal. They subpoenaed government documents as early as 1981 and forced declassification of others.

Reagan's involvement in and even knowledge of the situation remains unclear. The hearings never labeled the sale of weapons to Iran a criminal offense, but some officials faced charges for supporting the Contras. The administration, however, refused to declassify certain documents, forcing Congress to drop them.

9. A public relations firm organized congressional testimony that propelled U.S. involvement in the Persian Gulf War.

In 1990, a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl identified only as "Nayirah" testified before Congress that she witnessed Iraqi soldiers pulling infants from their incubators at a hospital and tossing them to the ground to die.

A later investigation revealed that PR giant Hill & Knowlton arranged her testimony for a client, Kuwaiti-sponsored Citizens for a Free Kuwait, and furthermore that Nayirah was the daughter of Kuwait's Ambassador to the U.S., according to The New York Times.

Tom Lantos, a representative from California who co-founded the committee that heard Nayirah, coordinated the whole thing. Perhaps not coincidentally, his committee rented space in the PR firm's headquarters at a reduced rate. Citizens for a Free Kuwait would go on to donate money to foundations with ties to said committee sometime after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

At first, Amnesty International affirmed the girl's testimony. But after reinvestigation, the group and other human rights organizations switched positions. They didn't necessarily question the accuracy, just her withheld bias.

Nayirah's testimony helped build support for the Persian Gulf War, though Congress would have likely pursued involvement without her words.
 
#48 ·
I should probably add that I don't believe in human societies at all. Humans are neurobiologically poorly suited for groups above roughly 50 individuals, the size of the tribes we evolved in. All sorts of shitty neural wiring kicks in when we form larger conglomerations than that (not that there isn't any in small groups). Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Only certain kinds of minds hunger for and attain power. Etc...

It's just that when shitty things happen, they can generally be explained in pretty straightforward terms by, say, Pinker's five demons.
 
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#54 ·
As a huge proponent of space exploration, "the moon landing was faked!" is probably the most irritating to me. Something like David Icke's lizard people has a very niche audience. Most people just laugh it off, so it's not in danger of catching on. The idea that the landings were faked sounds just sane enough to win a wider audience over (to more conservative sorts, a hoaxed moon landing actually probably sounds more down to earth than "we flew through space, landed on the moon and came back"). There would be serious, negative consequences to this one becoming more widely believed.

I also have a hate boner towards the anti vaccination crowd. Basically the anti-science sorts in general. Left unchecked, they damn well could drag us all to some facsimile of the 16th century, which is not a world I would want to live in.
 
#55 ·
It would be dumb to say that conspiracies don't happen. But I don't believe in the conspiracy theories that float around. Conspiracy theories are essentially tools for the very dumb to pretend to be smart, logical and more rational than everyone else. They're no better than creationists IMO. And most of the ones that I met actually were creationists. So yeah, conspiracy theories attract dumb people mostly.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Notice in the OP i want people to be specific. To say "I don't believe in conspiracy theories" is just a catch all to illustrate that a lot of people have a reactive, unthinking, pre-formative opinion on these affairs without even thinking about what it is they disagree with.

It's bred into the culture and it's as american as apple pie to be one of these "Skeptics", without identifying what or how they found their sense of disbelief in unspecific vagueries. There are plenty of well documented events that make the dismissal childish.
 
#57 ·
I think that the quality of conspiracy theory is really what we should be discussing/filtering through. So far what I'm reading here is a bunch of INTP's using rhetoric to take polarizing sides. I think we all here value skepticism and rationality (I can excuse myself from the group as an INFP ;)) but seriously, I don't here anyone here defending far out ideas like "Faked Moon Landings" or "Royal English Reptoids." I don't entertain those kind of "theories." 'Theory' is to gracious of a word: boogey tale is the category to which those kind of scare tactics fall under.

But to reserve skepticism about government or bodies-of-power and put on hold the gruel-fed of patriotic ideals our loving but naive Boomer parents fed us in grade-school...I think that's the start of clear seeing thought. I'm not saying that one should conclude the world is controlled by some All-Seeing-Eye-Of-Sauron or even some "shadow government" but to admit that we live in a world where nation states are posturing and using things like deception, propaganda, subversion, torture and an assortment of criminal behaviors to gain power and constituency? Dude, that's not conspiracy, that's human nature and anyone whose holding onto some vestige that Americans or Europeans are any better than the Russians, Chinese or other arch-powers we were taught to be afraid of as little kiddies...well sorry, but that's not just idealistic, it's irrational.

I hate getting pegged with the far out idiots who think that the Illuminati is behind everything, from their parking tickets to their kids "Satan inspired music." I don't believe in all that Apocalyptic Christian 4Channer shit but I'm also not stooopid enough to buy that our government isn't motivated to act like an Imperialistic arse and then turn around and pretend to be Captain Hero America. I don't buy it and if that makes me nut then I don't want to be normal and give up my brain.

(and apologies for invading INTP territory. They don't have these kind of threads on the INFP forum :(((( )
 
#65 · (Edited)
This I more or less agree with. I also thought your posts on the second page of this thread were very enlightening. The governments of the world (any of them) do less than reputable things all the time. If certain individuals can be silenced in Russia, they can be silenced in The United States or The UK just as easily. At the very least, governments (all of them) do plenty of lying. My main problem with a lot of even otherwise minor conspiracy theories is that cover ups are very difficult to pull off effectively. The more people involved and the longer a conspiracy goes on, the more likely it is that it's just going to unravel. But things definitely happen.

The CIA has periodically over the years performed tests on citizens (MK Ultra during the Cold War). I know someone who used to work for the CIA during the Cold War. It was a very basic job just organizing files or something, but he did take peeks and there were very interesting things in those files. Tactics to humiliate communist leaders (one involved making it seem like they had farted at a diplomatic function). The possibility that certain government agencies could be performing very questionable and more sinister sounding actions is entirely possible. We know the NSA spies on United States citizens (and even foreign nationals) at the very least.

When I hear "Conspiracy theorist" though, my mind tends to go more in the direction of lizard people NWO stuff. I think that's the case with most people. So when people denounce conspiracy theories or theorists, they don't necessarily mean "never question the government", they usually mean "Alex Jones is an idiot".
 
#58 ·
Mine is not typically one of believing in conspiracies. It is one that tries to disprove what is commonly accepted as truth when there is reason to beleive what we are being presented is false.

There is an alternative view of the geo-political world looking through history and now is a time to present this to those who are on this thread. Different from the way you have been let to believe, have you ever considered the following ...

 
#59 ·
I love this video and have watched it many times, but it might be too much for some people here, because, doncha know? it's nuts to believe anything authorities didn't tell you.
 
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#61 ·
I have to say that I had always written off conspiracy theories until 9/11. Even through the shock and horror of watching the towers come down there was a detached part of my brain that said, 'how does a building that's been hit on one side with a plane come down in a perfectly uniform way that leaves most of the buildings around it relatively unharmed?' I would have expected parts of of the building to fail at different times while exposed to different amounts of heat/jet fuel etc resulting in a messy crash. And then it happens AGAIN to the second tower?

I started paying attention. You just need to do a little digging to realize that I wasn't the only person who thought that, and that thousands of architects and engineers are willing to publicly sign their names to testify that they also don't believe a building comes down that way. When you start digging there's mountains of evidence. Some of it is of dubious quality, but others are pretty striking. Firefighters report hearing series of explosions when the towers came down. There's this CNN news report that aired once, where a news reporter states that it appears that .

I could keep going, but when you take all of that together, and then you consider how 9/11 was used as propaganda to fuel a war with Iraq and how it was used to keep people in fear (remember the ridiculous terror alert levels that would jump to red whenever a unfavorable political story surfaced?) I just don't understand how a rational person doesn't at least doubt the official story.
 
#92 · (Edited)
No matter your disposition, the events leading up to, and following 9/11 stretch human credulity to its absolute breaking point. George bush was reading "My Pet Goat" upside down...To children at a school event during the transpiring first plane crash into the Trade towers.

You couldn't have written a better goodie two shoes story if he was teaching brail to deaf, dumb, blind, baby nuns and busy curing cancer all in one stroke when he heard the news.

The widely syndicated news that Osama Bin Laden was the perpetrator of the attack was almost immediately deciphered live during the events within less than an hour of the first plash crash, all despite having almost no time to investigate intelligence into the aforementioned incident.

The commission was quickly finalized, the evidence was cordoned off and destroyed, and in an open and shut manner eerily similar to the Oklahoma city bombing, the whole thing was swept away in the wreckage of time.

The Patriot ACT was written up and approved so hastily you'd think a bond villian had hijacked congress. And the convenient, oil rich military satellite possibilities of a campaign in iraq and afghanistan had war contractors and oil companies practically salivating at the chance to dig their teeth into another conflict.

I can't see how anyone with an inch of incredulity can see it as anything more than a pale subterfuge. Whatever actually happened, we may never know, but the official report is almost certainly not accurate.
 
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