Mafia Theory - Difference between normal, experimental and bastard games.

As far as I can see, there is no differentiating factor for what constitutes as an experimental game. As far as that goes, it is even more ambiguous what constitutes as a bastard game on this site.

I propose rules be set in place for what is considered a normal game, and experimental game and a bastard games as well as providing an observable tangible checklist for what constitutes as these three categories. Furthermore, there should be no overlap between them and that it should be clear what game category said game falls under. Think of this in the way as there are symptoms of said games and if a certain amount of (or in some cases any) criteria that falls under a particular setup to distinguish games as such category. I can see this working in the way of:
Normal > Experimental > Bastard. So in this way if there are any places where a game falls under experimental, the game is experimental and if there are any places where a game falls under bastard, the game is bastard.

Players should know exactly what they are getting into. Along with these categories, I believe there should be an additional category that tells if the game is Role Madness or not. Any one of the three categories can be role madness. I think there should be very clear rules for what is considered a normal game. It is also my personal belief that most games run should be normal and fewer that are experimental and fewer still that are bastard games.

The reasons we need clear categories for games is for a few reasons which I will say some of them (there may be more reasons that this).

1) Players need to know what the fundamental principles that govern that game are. This should be obvious. Without knowing what the foundation of the game is, players have no choice in selecting or avoiding games they don't feel comfortable playing in.

2) Transparency. Making rules clear about what constitutes one game vs another is very important. The reason this is important is so hosts can use the categories as a template to use as structure for how they want to design their games. When hosts know what kind of game they want to make it will ideally make for a more coherent strategy for designing their game.

3) Eliminating confusion for both host and players. If every one knows what to expect going forward it will eliminate confusion on how to categorize a hosts game and players will know what is to be expected from the host. This will also eliminate frustration from those who feel said game should be played.

4) Giving the player a clear cut optimal strategy to implement and knowing what to look out for and what to not have to worry about. If a game is bastard, ideally the player would know certain things about the game that will allow them to account for variables that would not be seen in say, a normal game.

5) Honesty. Host should be honest in how they represent their game. Even if the host lies about certain things regarding the setup, it should be known that this is a possibility so players can know that they may not be able to believe everything the mod tells them.

Some things to consider in how categories are determined:

1) If the host lies about parts of the setup
2) If there are mechanics or hidden mechanics implemented in the game
3) If there are unique roles in the game that are made up by the host
A) A list of what role are considered normal should be made known
B) A list of functions a role can have and still be normal should be known.
4) If the game has roles that can switch a player's win condition
5) If the game has partial or no reveal with a player's death
6) If there are abnormalities in voting
7) If there are probability chances for an ability to work or not work
8) If there are post restrictions

I don't believe that the way the queue works has to be changed for this to be implemented. I do, however think that games should be labeled into categories on top of the ones that we currently have for the reasons I have mentioned.

This is meant to be a springboard for discussion (for the mods primarily) on what constitutes as these categories or if a system needs to be put in place to further categorize games to bring clarity to those who host and play games here.
@Lizabeth , @Clovdyx , @hal0hal0

I'm not necessarily against this, but we already have so much focus on enforcing things with rules lately :(

I just watch out for people who I fully expect to be bastard mods when I sign up for a game, tbh (and then go in with such expectations).

tldr

(this is obviously done in response to tzaras game)

The problems with Tzaras game is two things as far as I can tell:

1. It was a bastard game and was not advertised as one/the host lied about the setup that was shown in the OP.
2. The ACTUAL setup arguably wasn't mafia.

1: Simple solution: If you want to host a bastard game, make sure it is very clearly advertised as one so that people know what they are getting into, and if it ISN'T advertised as a bastard game, don't lie to the players about the setup when they sign up, just make it fully closed if you intend to spring such things.

2: Host a setup with an informed minority, the mafia, and an uninformed majority, town. Now, this can be changed a bit with serial killers replacing mafia, and multiple wolf teams/cults and all that, but the core principle is easy to understand. Its very easy to see that a game with 13 vt, three mafia and 1 sk still holds to the mafia basics, whilst 13 survivors doesn't. A rule of thumb is town should be a majority of all players (>50%).

Omg this was made >_>

@QuickTwist , thanks for the feedback. I think your comments fit in with some of the larger discussions that were started in this thread https://personalitycafe.com/mafia/848...thread-10.html ( @Clovdyx and I haven't forgotten about the discussion, by the way, we've just been busy. .

As far as mod/game rules or guidelines go, guidelines for modding are coming. Right now we're trying to focus on promoting fair and enjoyable games through mod development/guidance. We're not planning on implementing a big list of list of new rules right now, but rather "strong suggestions" and creating more tools and opportunities for coaching/review. And I do hope that the mod mentoring system that is in place (and the upcoming tweaks) will help address some of these issues in the long run (in terms promoting clarity for players regarding what they're signing up for when they sign up for a game). As Alles pointed out, people will learn which game mods they feel comfortable with or not. The only problem is really for new players who might not have that history, so I would like to encourage better clarity with things like that over all.

A lot of what you (and TSIT) have said reflects some things that Clov and I have already been considering for inclusion in the new guidelines. I've been considering for a while that the template for submitting games should include an indicator of whether the game is mafia-style or non-maifa style so that players have clearer expectations with closed setups.

Anyway, short version is, we're getting to it. Just might take some time due to some real life business.

Originally Posted by Lizabeth

@QuickTwist, thanks for the feedback. I think your comments fit in with some of the larger discussions that were started in this thread https://personalitycafe.com/mafia/848...thread-10.html ( @Clovdyx and I haven't forgotten about the discussion, by the way, we've just been busy. .

As far as mod/game rules or guidelines go, guidelines for modding are coming. Right now we're trying to focus on promoting fair and enjoyable games through mod development/guidance. We're not planning on implementing a big list of list of new rules right now, but rather "strong suggestions" and creating more tools and opportunities for coaching/review. And I do hope that the mod mentoring system that is in place (and the upcoming tweaks) will help address some of these issues in the long run (in terms promoting clarity for players regarding what they're signing up for when they sign up for a game). As Alles pointed out, people will learn which game mods they feel comfortable with or not. The only problem is really for new players who might not have that history, so I would like to encourage better clarity with things like that over all.

A lot of what you (and TSIT) have said reflects some things that Clov and I have already been considering for inclusion in the new guidelines. I've been considering for a while that the template for submitting games should include an indicator of whether the game is mafia-style or non-maifa style so that players have clearer expectations with closed setups.

Anyway, short version is, we're getting to it. Just might take some time due to some real life business.

OK, thanks Liz. Like I say, clarity is the main concern here. Without anything to tell us what to expect in a game it is just a recipe for disaster.

If it is a bastard game it should be mentioned beforehand, hiding it will only make things worse in the end. We have already seen it happen when Socioapathetic had hosted a bastard game and failed to mention it, Scum lost very badly and the first mod of the newly made mafia forum at that time here quit because of it.

Originally Posted by lost monkey

If it is a bastard game it should be mentioned beforehand, hiding it will only make things worse in the end. We have already seen it happen when Socioapathetic had hosted a bastard game and failed to mention it, Scum lost very badly and the first mod of the newly made mafia forum at that time here quit because of it.

Which game was that?

Originally Posted by Owner Of A Lonely Heart

Which game was that?

This one

https://personalitycafe.com/mafia/134...-town-win.html