FAMOUS MISTYPE: Leonardo Da Vinci: ISTP - Page 2

FAMOUS MISTYPE: Leonardo Da Vinci: ISTP

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This is a discussion on FAMOUS MISTYPE: Leonardo Da Vinci: ISTP within the Myers Briggs Forum forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Originally Posted by Liove The entire study you cited is based on statistics, so of course it's statistically significant. Way ...

  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Liove View Post
    The entire study you cited is based on statistics, so of course it's statistically significant.
    Way to show you have no freaking clue what you're talking about.

    Here, have a read (link).
    Now that you've done the work of eliminating the ENTP typing from the list of popular possbilities we can focus more on the ISTP vs. INTP. Again, thank you.
    I didn't eliminate anything. I just inferred that your point about your big list of stuff being ISTP is garbage, because ISTP isn't even the first thing that any of these things would suggest, when you consider actual evidence. I can say it more bluntly: your way of attributing things to "Ti-Se" and then matching him to ISTP because of said list, is garbage. Especially when it can probably be shown that everyone of those things is more INTP than ISTP. Try digging up statistics and see what you fine. This one's on you buddy. Not just "it's visual so Se!!!" I guess this is what you may be able to call Introverted Thinking, but it's really just Bad Thinking.
    I don't see why your subjective metric in determining his type should be used as a counter argument in any way. Just because you don't use the same metric I used to determine Da Vinci's type doesn't mean my typing of him is wrong. So again, it's a wall of mootness.
    Try reading about the guy. At the very least he is clearly N and clearly P. Yes I am using subjective thinking to evaluate him but it's subjective thinking about his goddamn personality, not just some tenuous function and Keirsey connections to topics which aren't S > N.
    ISTP and INTP are both Ts, so of course it's relevant if you're stating that 'the vast majority of scientists are thinkers' as a counterpoint to Da Vinci being an ISTP and having a strong aptitude for science.
    Way to miss the point completely.
    I already have.
    You are so stuck in a subjective thinking rut that you think the garbage you barfed up qualifies as evidence.
    I agree. Da Vinci being typed as INTP is wrong.
    Oh cute, is this your idea of humor? Ha ha ha.
    Which bias would you prefer people to lean toward?
    The MBTI bias.
    How unfortunate that you're a proponent of conventional methods to reinstate ideas and conclusions you've become familiar with.
    What part of "sacrificing accuracy" don't you understand? I think the conventional methods lead to inaccurate results. I think many of these conventionally-S-typed artists should be typed as N.
    I don't see why your subjective metric in determining his type should be used as a counter argument in any way. Just because you don't use the same metric I used to determine Da Vinci's type doesn't mean my typing of him is wrong.
    I use MBTI, buddy. Of course how I actually do it is "subjective" but at least I do it with some self-awareness and actually look at MBTI personality traits rather than false equivalences to MBTI.
    I don't know why you're arguing against ISFP being considered as the archetypal artist, it has nothing to do with Da Vinci being ISTP. The link you provided is talking about the value of introversion among designers, which also has nothing to do with Da Vinci being ISTP.
    The picture shows that it's N types that appreciate art. People who appreciate art also tend to make art. Surely, this can't be hard for you to grasp.

    And design is a very SJ subset/applied variation of art. You can dispute this and call it subjective, which it is, but if design is predominantly N, you couldn't possibly believe that the larger set of art would be, could you?

    And let me remind you: I'm not trying to "prove" that he's N based on this stuff. I'm just trying to correct the garbage you are spewing out with actual objective data. Use your supposed "Te" for once.
    I'm very sorry, but you haven't really shown any convincing evidence that my typing of Da Vinci as ISTP is wrong. Have you considered that your admitted subjectivity is causing cognitive dissonance, because I sincerely don't understand the pain, anguish, and horror of losing one of the sacred cows of INTPs. All I'm doing is putting Da Vinci in his rightful place in MBTI, which is ISTP.
    Hahaha, is this some kind of joke? Try having some self-awareness instead of projecting what you're doing onto me.
    If it's of any consolation, I think your Ne is immensely entertaining.
    Why thank you.
    I never said I believe "NTs can't be interested in arts" nor "NFs can't be interested in science."
    Instead you just attributed a bunch of random areas that Da Vinci was involved with to SP or "Ti-Se". Maybe you didn't do exactly that but goddamn if it is any better.
    I wasn't typing him based on his interests per se either.

    I look for the cognitive functions that underlie his interests, then look for the most common functions that show up.
    In addition to that, I apply the same cognitive function metric in his personal philosophies.
    In addition to that, I apply the same cognitive function metric in all his works that manifested in the real world.
    In Da Vinci's case it's overwhelmingly Ti-Se, which is ISTP through and through.
    Yep, stuck in your subjective thinking rut where everything is "Ti-Se" because you say so.

  2. #12
    ISTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    No, it's more like since him being a senser is the main thing in question, the null hypothesis of "he's as INTP as he is ISTP" is the thing that should be refuted (all other things except N-S being held steady). I would guess INTP as his type but that's irrelevant.
    No its not, if you make a claim you need to back it up. That's how it works. After viewing his work in person, I think was an F type. If you want to claim he's INTP its fine but if you are gonna ask for proof from people who have a different theory don't be a hypocrite and act like you don't need to do the same.

    I think I made it clear that it's my subjective opinion, which is based on anecdotal stuff and logic which is obviously not "proof" in any sense.
    Its funny how you try to make other people back up their opinions though while you refuse to back up yours when asked.
    I'd guess creators are more biased to the P side of things, but there's also a pretty big overlap between those who appreciate art and those who make it.
    Good for you.
    Last edited by soop; 12-24-2017 at 10:12 PM.

  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by soop View Post
    No its not, if you make a claim you need to back it up. That's how it works. After viewing his work in person, I think was an F type. If you want to claim he's INTP its fine but if you are gonna ask for proof from people who have a different theory don't be a hypocrite and act like you don't need to do the same.
    I don't care if he's an F type. I am addressing the claim that he's an S type and the inane arguments that our delightful OP put forward. If he's more INTP than ISTP he's also more INFP than ISFP, or whatever you are saying his type his (ignoring S vs N). I'm looking at it "all other things equal" to focus on N vs S, rather than anything else. If you'd like to argue for him being an F, be my guest but that's not what I was addressing.
    Its funny how you try to make other people back up their opinions though while you refuse to back up yours when asked.
    I mean I could make a positive argument for N (it'd be very easy to) but I would rather just point out that the OP's arguments are bad. He made the thread, so why can't I focus my mental energy on critiquing it?

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  5. #14
    ISTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    I don't care if he's an F type. I am addressing the claim that he's an S type and the inane arguments that our delightful OP put forward.
    Thats nice, but if you are responding to someone's claim with a cliam of your own you still have to provide proof. Especially if you ask for it.
    I mean I could make a positive argument for N (it'd be very easy to) but I would rather just point out that the OP's arguments are bad. He made the thread, so why can't I focus my mental energy on critiquing it?
    I agree that he's not an ISTP but the fact is that if you ask for proof and are not willing to provide it, that's hypocritical if you are okay with being hypocritical thats fine, but thats what's going on. You could have just critiqued them by pointing out the flaws but once you made a claim and decided not to provide proof thats not something you should be criticizing them for.

  6. #15
    INTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    I didn't eliminate anything. I just inferred that your point about your big list of stuff being ISTP is garbage, because ISTP isn't even the first thing that any of these things would suggest, when you consider actual evidence.
    Of course you eliminated something. Well, I guess you can call it 'significantly reduced the likelihood of' the ENTP typing. The most likely type for the casual inventor are INTP and ISTP, and this is based on evidence you provided. You did a lot of work for me, so again thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    I can say it more bluntly: your way of attributing things to "Ti-Se" and then matching him to ISTP because of said list, is garbage. Especially when it can probably be shown that everyone of those things is more INTP than ISTP(1). Try digging up statistics and see what you fine. This one's on you buddy (2).
    You're telling me the burden of proof (bolded-2) is on me to prove a claim (bolded-1) you made?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    Try reading about the guy. At the very least he is clearly N and clearly P. Yes I am using subjective thinking to evaluate him but it's subjective thinking about his goddamn personality, not just some tenuous function and Keirsey connections to topics which aren't S > N.
    If you're using subjective thinking about his personality then the ultimate resulting type is only valid to you and nobody else. If you want to type him accurately then I suggest you use objective thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    The MBTI bias.
    Wikipedia

    Leonardo's approach to science was observational:
    he tried to understand a phenomenon by describing and depicting it in utmost detail
    and did not emphasise experiments or theoretical explanation.

    Merriam Webster: "Observe"
    a : to watch carefully especially with attention to details or behavior for the purpose of arriving at a judgment
    observed the behavior of the children
    b : to make a scientific observation on or of
    observed the mating habits of the grouse

    Wikipedia: Theoretical Definition

    A theoretical definition is an abstract concept that defines a term in an academic discipline.
    they cannot be simply reduced to describing a set of observations.

    Wikipedia: MBTI: INTP

    • N – Intuition preferred to sensing:
    • INTPs tend to be more abstract than concrete.
    • They focus their attention on the big picture rather than the details
    • and on future possibilities rather than immediate realities.


    Wikipedia: MBTI: ISTP

    • S – Sensing preferred to intuition:
    • ISTPs tend to be more concrete than abstract
    • they focus their attention on the details rather than the big picture
    • and on immediate realities rather than future possibilities


    Cambridge Dictionary: "Concrete"
    based on sure facts or existing things rather than guesses or theories

    Leonardo Da Vinci:

    "Common Sense is that which judges the things given to it by other senses."

    The MBTI instrument:

    This underlying personality pattern results from the dynamic interaction of their four preferences, in conjunction with environmental influences and their own individual tendencies. People are likely to develop behaviors, skills, and attitudes based on their particular type.

    Wiki:

    Leonardo would have been exposed to both theoretical training and a vast range of technical skills, including drafting, chemistry, metallurgy, metal working, plaster casting, leather working, mechanics and carpentry as well as the artistic skills of drawing, painting, sculpting and modelling.


    MBTI: ISTP

    They can also be closet daredevils who gravitate toward fast-moving or risky hobbies (such as bungee jumping, hang gliding, racing, motorcycling, and skydiving)

    Leonardo Da Vinci:

    “Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.”

    "I have always felt it is my destiny to build a machine that would allow man to fly."

    ======================================

    I'm deathly curious as to how you intend to Ti-Ne your way out of this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    I actually am a proponent of another possibility: the one where the "conventional" typings nowadays type a lot of artists as ISFP and similar senser types for a number of reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    I think the conventional methods lead to inaccurate results.
    You just argued against yourself there, champ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    The picture shows that it's N types that appreciate art. People who appreciate art also tend to make art.
    That doesn't reduce the likelihood of Da Vinci being an ISTP at all. Talk about tenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    Instead you just attributed a bunch of random areas that Da Vinci was involved with to SP or "Ti-Se".
    His treatises.
    His philosophies.
    His manifested works.
    His personal interests.

    These are not 'random areas'. Do you honestly believe these have nothing to do with his MBTI?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    • In my very subjective opinion, people are biasing themselves in a misguided effort to be fair to sensers.
    • I think I made it clear that it's my subjective opinion [...]
    • Yes I am using subjective thinking to evaluate him but it's subjective thinking about his goddamn personality
    • Of course how I actually do it is "subjective"
    • You can dispute this and call it subjective, which it is,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    Yep, stuck in your subjective thinking rut
    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    Try having some self-awareness instead of projecting what you're doing onto me.
    Subjective thinking rut = Ti-Si loop (sound familiar)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean Helm View Post
    Not just "it's visual so Se!!!" I guess this is what you may be able to call Introverted Thinking, but it's really just Bad Thinking.
    I did a word search on my initial post, and not once did I use the word 'visual', nor did I ever say "it's visual so Se!!!". You are the one who said this and it's called a Strawman, the most basic rudimentary error in logical reasoning. INTPs are supposed to be a match if not better than the INTJ when it comes to logical reasoning, so needless to say I'm beyond disappointed. I expected more.

    Auxiliary: Extraverted Sensing

    Se focuses on the experiences and sensations of the immediate, physical world.
    With an acute awareness of the present surroundings, it brings relevant facts and details to the forefront
    This function drives ISTPs to embrace opportunities to plunge headfirst into experiences.

    Leonardo Da Vinci:

    “All sciences are vain and full of errors that are not born of Experience, the mother of all Knowledge.”

    "Although nature commences with reason and ends in experience it is necessary for us to do the opposite, that is to commence with experience and from this to proceed to investigate the reason."

    "Experience never errs; it is only your judgments that err by promising themselves effects such as are not caused by your experiments."
    Aluminum Frost thanked this post.

  7. #16

    All or most of these seem Ti-Ne to me. INTPs are not necessarily interested in presenting theories to externally show the world, they are interested in understanding them, for them. Which is why I'm not surprised at all by his approach. Funny thing is, my boyfriend is INTP, he would observe light when he was 4 years old to try and understand how it works, he was fixated on it for hours and people around him thought something was wrong with him xD. INTPs are not necessarily interested in conducting experiments, that's usually Te.

    Se types are not the most likely artists because they'd have to live in their heads to create, whereas Se acts on the NOW, the immediate sensory inputs. I think we've all met Se types, either dom or aux and they hardly ever have such interests. I think the most common artistic type is Ne, I remember reading stats about art college students and Ne types were over-represented, especially xNFP.

    In the case of DaVinci, a lot of his inventions are so completely out of reality (for the time) I don't see how it can possibly be Se. They were like fairy tales. He was peering into the future and what could be.

  8. #17
    INFP


    From what I've read here - how is he not an ISxJ??

  9. #18

    I think it's also possible he was an INTJ, which could explain better his needs to do, create, see possibilities and his detailed artistry.
    A lot of these quotes presented are N visualization instead of Se.
    And I think a Se aux wouldn't be surprised of his need to 'act' it would be second nature for him. Being surprised seems like a S being in a weaker position, possibly INTJ.


     
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