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This is a discussion on type interaction videos within the Myers Briggs Forum forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Originally Posted by Celebok Those sound like good clues to consider, but to me it sounds like a bit of ...

  1. #1001
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebok View Post
    Those sound like good clues to consider, but to me it sounds like a bit of a leap to take a lack of interest in something as a firm indicator of something else. For all we know, @fihe's mind might've been distracted while you were discussing the Ni perspective. Maybe you mentioned a specific topic that didn't interest her and it had nothing to do with the Ni perspective of that topic. I think it would be worth it to figure out WHY she wasn't interested in that part of the conversation, before going down the rabbit trail of assuming it indicates high Si. (As an example, it would be like taking me into a women's shoe store and pointing out all the details of the various shoes in front of us, and then assuming that my lack of interest means I don't prefer to look at real-world details, and therefore is an indicator of Ne.)
    Using the words disinterest was the best I could come up with on the fly. It goes far deeper than that.
    It was the whole vibe between us that changed when I brought up Ni usage.
    And my gut gave me the sinking feeling I always get when your information has been "cognitively rejected".
    So it is more a gut feeling thing. The body language I picked up on a rewatch and remembering how I felt at that time.
    The topic was about something that she didn't perceive as real. I can't say for sure, but I get the impression that Si/Te
    heavy people lack an affinity for things that isn't real, like anime.

    Anyway after that I moved the topic towards topics I knew high Si users revel in (safety etc) and guess what,
    her interest spiked significantly. And she kept going on about possibilities from a safety perspective.
    That is very Ne. INFP is a possibility for sure, but I did get the feeling that she was more playful and explorative with her Fi
    than an Fi dom would be. We are more firm and set in our Fi ways. My INFP friend is way more opinionated about Fi topics
    than I got the impression from her.
    @fihe
    No you wasn't rude. I was able to pick up on your internal state and discern that you was unable to relate to the information.
    Rudeness implies that you consciously chooses to display disrespect.
    In your case you had a process outside your awareness make you behave in a certain way.
    I only picked up on it since I'm very much in tune with the state of what the other person is about in the moment.
    It is an ISFP/9 blessing and curse.

    Still, your theory doesn't actually contradict any of the cognitive functions we've been seeing in @fihe. The leading contender is INFP, which has the same functions as ISTJ, in a different order. It's just a matter of whether the Si+Te pair is more dominant than the Fi+Ne pair. I personally still see more Fi+Ne than Si+Te.
    I'm sticking with ISTJ as your Ti logic reasoning seems as irrelevant to me as Ni seemed to fihe in our chat.
    Just as my Fi reasoning probably irks Ti doms the wrong way too. :p

  2. #1002
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by StellarTwirl View Post
    Wow, this is interesting! (This might be why I'm always so interested in what Ni-doms have to say.) I wonder if dom/aux Ni feels the same way about Si.
    In my experience they do and can be very verbal about it.
    Just try to force them to endure a tea-party centred about the topic of the splendidness of the china used to serve the tea. XD
    I can endure it if I must as I can just Se my way trough it. Dom Ni don't have that option.
    Forced Se for an hour is a guaranteed path to exhaustion.

    Think about how you would feel about forced Se for an hour.
    Ne/Se is equivalent to Si/Ni.
    Everytime I go Se on my ENTP friend he has this dazed and confused look on his face.

  3. #1003

    Quote Originally Posted by hornet View Post
    Using the words disinterest was the best I could come up with on the fly. It goes far deeper than that.
    It was the whole vibe between us that changed when I brought up Ni usage.
    And my gut gave me the sinking feeling I always get when your information has been "cognitively rejected".
    So it is more a gut feeling thing. The body language I picked up on a rewatch and remembering how I felt at that time.
    The topic was about something that she didn't perceive as real. I can't say for sure, but I get the impression that Si/Te
    heavy people lack an affinity for things that isn't real, like anime.
    I really don't think an interest in anime or not has anything to do with Si...

    Anyway after that I moved the topic towards topics I knew high Si users revel in (safety etc) and guess what,
    her interest spiked significantly. And she kept going on about possibilities from a safety perspective.

    That is very Ne. INFP is a possibility for sure, but I did get the feeling that she was more playful and explorative with her Fi
    than an Fi dom would be. We are more firm and set in our Fi ways. My INFP friend is way more opinionated about Fi topics
    than I got the impression from her.
    I really don't think an interest in safety has anything to do with Si either. An interest in safety is enneagram-related. Sp doms and 6s are in general more interested in safety than other types and I definitely see the 3-6 axis in her and sp dom so. Go ahead and try me, try to discuss safety issues with me and you will see how disinterested I will be in favor for discussing theoretical subjects or anime (and I will theorize anime which is again part enneagram-related).

    It's like saying her focus on career must be an indicator of dominant or auxiliary Te when it's just her 3 image fix shining through. She seems to be 136 tritype based on what I've seen.

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  5. #1004
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I really don't think an interest in anime or not has anything to do with Si...

    I really don't think an interest in safety has anything to do with Si either. An interest in safety is enneagram-related. Sp doms and 6s are in general more interested in safety than other types and I definitely see the 3-6 axis in her and sp dom so. Go ahead and try me, try to discuss safety issues with me and you will see how disinterested I will be in favor for discussing theoretical subjects or anime (and I will theorize anime which is again part enneagram-related).

    It's like saying her focus on career must be an indicator of dominant or auxiliary Te when it's just her 3 image fix shining through. She seems to be 136 tritype based on what I've seen.
    You are misinterpreting my message.
    (I'm not trying to be nitpicky accurate either :p)

    I can't say for sure, but I get the impression that Si/Te
    heavy people lack an affinity for things that isn't real, like anime.
    Focus on the affinity for real.
    In my experience the Si and Te combined together in dom/aux makes for an individual who
    don't like to venture very far from what is perceived as real and concrete.

    As for the enneagram I won't say either way what is going on in that realm.
    I don't care for a Ti exploration of something I don't feel well grounded in.

    Si doms focus on safety since anything new reeks of Ne and safety is a concept that contains an element of stability.

    Go ahead and try me, try to discuss safety issues with me and you will see how disinterested I will be in favor for discussing theoretical subjects or anime (and I will theorize anime which is again part enneagram-related).
    How exactly does you revelling in your auxiliary Ne, prove your point about Si dom/aux users?

    I get the impression that you don't bother to read my post and think about the meaning I'm trying to convey.
    You just react to them and cause you can't stand the Fi message they carry.
    Much like my ISTP father who I have to go stone cold Te on every time I've made some Fi carrying statement to shut him up.

    Here is the truth.
    I don't give a damn if my statments don't balance like a math equation.
    I have a message between the lines and I don't expect anyone to take my words as gospel truth.
    Nor do I want my words to be held to the standard of gospel truth.

    Now these statements are teased out from reacting to your Ti statements who in fact repulse me.
    I've noticed lately that people on this forum try to erect this political correct atmosphere around the fact that
    certain perspectives tick us off more than others.

    In my view most conflicts stem from the fact that we aren’t aware of how much these perspectives affect us.
    We react negatively because we have rejected them so deeply.

    Every time I have a discussion with you LeaT I feel unbalanced since the frame you are coming from doesn't
    sit well with me. The information seems almost irrelevant. Only the knowledge of you being a Ti dom makes
    me reconsider and try to respond in a polite tone and with as little defensiveness as possible.

    Now what I've written here is very Fi. It contains no major fact checking, no checking of internal consistency....
    All it does is represent very accurately what I feel and mean!

    When you try to nitpick those statements for whatever standards you try to hold me to.
    All I feel is trampled by a general disregard.

    I can go Te and check the facts, open the relevant books and refresh my memory.
    However I still won't try to make my statments balance like an equation.
    I don't have the time, energy nor the inclination.
    It won't serve anyone else than you LeaT if I do it.
    No one will be better educated if I make everything nitpicky correct.

    In fact all I care about is that someone is able to infer what I mean from the abstract meaning contained in my statements.
    I'm pointing to concepts, you have to deal with those concepts yourself not expect me to point out every connection for you.
    But that is very Ni of me. I'm expecting everyone to take the information as I'm used to it.
    Here is a concept, try to see if that point of view will enlighten you more.

    Then the Ti user comes, your points of view isn't internally consistent.
    Well no, they aren’t and I like it that way.

    Hope someone was able to gleam something useful from my rant as I've been severely stressed lately and can't deal with
    the perspective of Ti in any other way than long rants.

    BTW:
    In case anyone got the wrong message I respect @LeaT highly.
    But that doesn't matter at all when it comes to how I react to Ti under stress.
    Those reactions isn't personal and shouldn't be interpreted as such.
    Just as @fihe shouldn't feel like she was rude for her reactions to Ni.

  6. #1005

    @hornet , it has nothing to do with your Fi but it has to do with how you convey your points. That you think I just attack you because of your Fi-reasoning however reeks very much of projection on your part. You are writing your posts on an online forum public for everyone to see; if you can't deal with people disagreeing with your points and deflecting that it's people simply reacting to your Fi then you're just being dishonest and refuse to take responsbility of what you say and write. So let's say I would do the same and say that you can't understand me because Ti is so much logical than any function, wouldn't you think I come off as a know-it-all prick? That's essentially what you're doing here by playing up the whole "I'm right but you can't possibly understand me because I'm Fi dom". That's just a refusal on your part to communicate. Not everything is about Fi.

    Focus on the affinity for real.
    In my experience the Si and Te combined together in dom/aux makes for an individual who
    don't like to venture very far from what is perceived as real and concrete.
    But that's your subjective understanding of what real and concrete is. You're an Se auxiliary user, by that token shouldn't you equally be disinterested in fiction because fiction isn't real? Ni is your tertiary function but the tertiary is weak. There is a big difference between auxiliary and tertiary alone. The tertiary is considered a part of the unconscious, just less unconscious as the inferior.

    No, the question is how we understand fiction itself. @itsme45 is for example an ESTP with inferior Ni and she likes fiction and even likes to come up with stories but she is careful to not find any hidden meaning in fiction which would be an N-thing to do. In class I'm fairly sure you had to do literature analysis at some point when studying a language where you have to figure out the metaphorical meaning of the narrative and so on, and that's how an N would approach fiction.

    Of course, I haven't actually seen the video between you and fihe and while I understand what you are trying to say, I don't think an interest in fiction or not per se can be indicative of S/N. It's rather how we approach fiction that's indicative - does she write it off because she has no interest in the symbolic and hidden meanings?

    Si doms focus on safety since anything new reeks of Ne and safety is a concept that contains an element of stability.
    See, now that's a reasoning I can buy and yes I agree that Si-dominants can potentially be more risk-averse in this sense although I think there's an unfortunate overlap here with enneagram descriptions.

  7. #1006
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @hornet, it has nothing to do with your Fi but it has to do with how you convey your points. That you think I just attack you because of your Fi-reasoning however reeks very much of projection on your part. You are writing your posts on an online forum public for everyone to see; if you can't deal with people disagreeing with your points and deflecting that it's people simply reacting to your Fi then you're just being dishonest and refuse to take responsbility of what you say and write. So let's say I would do the same and say that you can't understand me because Ti is so much logical than any function, wouldn't you think I come off as a know-it-all prick? That's essentially what you're doing here by playing up the whole "I'm right but you can't possibly understand me because I'm Fi dom". That's just a refusal on your part to communicate. Not everything is about Fi.
    Haha I find it funny that the more honest and direct I become the more dishonest and evasive you perceive me.
    Proving my point perfectly.
    Dishonesty implyes saying something you don't belive to be true.
    I believe in every one of my statements in the last post, so dishonest? I don't think so.
    As for know-it-all-prick? I won't even comment that one.

    Now I remembered why we disagree, I subscribe to the Beebe model...
    You don't. It is that simple.
    So I deleted long angry retort.

    Instead I ask why is the Beebe model wrong on peoples reaction to different functions in your view?

    But that's your subjective understanding of what real and concrete is. You're an Se auxiliary user, by that token shouldn't you equally be disinterested in fiction because fiction isn't real? Ni is your tertiary function but the tertiary is weak. There is a big difference between auxiliary and tertiary alone. The tertiary is considered a part of the unconscious, just less unconscious as the inferior.
    The tertiary is the playful function, so I play with fiction and such. There is also a big difference between tertiary and inferior,
    just as Ni and Ne are very different. Many ISFPs dig sci-fi anime and such as long as the feeling content are believable.
    Hence I like Star Wars over Star Trek as the interactions in Star Trek comes of quite fake to me.

    Not that Star Wars is totally non fake, but it is a step in the right direction not having every convo politically correctly scripted.

    No, the question is how we understand fiction itself. @itsme45 is for example an ESTP with inferior Ni and she likes fiction and even likes to come up with stories but she is careful to not find any hidden meaning in fiction which would be an N-thing to do. In class I'm fairly sure you had to do literature analysis at some point when studying a language where you have to figure out the metaphorical meaning of the narrative and so on, and that's how an N would approach fiction.
    Yeah but that is Ni... Not Ne BIG difference....

    Of course, I haven't actually seen the video between you and fihe and while I understand what you are trying to say, I don't think an interest in fiction or not per se can be indicative of S/N. It's rather how we approach fiction that's indicative - does she write it off because she has no interest in the symbolic and hidden meanings?
    Yeah that was my impression exactly. I was talking about how INTJs was usually the villain in many shows.
    And the inferences needed to come to those conclusions gave her the quaint look of I don't even want to consider
    that any aspect of anything can have any meaning whatsoever beyond that is plainly there.
    In other words the convo got real tense/stale/uptight as soon as a Ni inference was expected.
    And I got to that lovely part that makes all Ni users love SJs so much where I had to drop the topic and find another
    more down to earth since she was plainly not interested in having a convo about more wishy washy stuff.
    Having just had a convo with an INTJ the contrast was very intense for me. And it was nothing like the mistrust
    the ESFP with Ni in inferior either. There we could meet halfway and agree that I put more stock in guesses than he did.

    This was more a that isn't real so why are we even discussing it.... All said in body language and general awkwardness.
    Now I'm an Fi user and notice the level of awkwardness a convo have and quickly move away from it.
    So from her perspective she seems to have no recollection of there being an issue, cause I solved it instantly by moving the topic to a more down to earth topic. I mean the INTJ convo was taking place in a whole other realm, likewise with the INFJ convos.

    Now I have no problem with going down to earth, being an S and all. I was just taken by surprise by encountering
    Si when I was expecting Ni. Anyone who watches that vid closely should see that I'm taken totally of guard in my expectations
    and I'm having to totally rethink where I'm going with the convo as what I'm saying does not get any response on any
    level. Cause the information is irrelevant to her.

    At least if you go by the Bebee model, and I know you reject it and that is unfortunate cause it really works in the real world.
    Explaining why people don't like what other people are saying perfectly.

    See, now that's a reasoning I can buy and yes I agree that Si-dominants can potentially be more risk-averse in this sense although I think there's an unfortunate overlap here with enneagram descriptions.
    Glad we can agree on something.
    I would like to untangle the enneagram from my JCF understanding some day in the future.
    But if I'm to keep my sanity I think I need to do it with an INTJ. ;)

  8. #1007

    @hornet, what you really need to understand is that disagreement isn't necessary because of functions alone. If that's true then I would never disagree with an INTP either because we use the same functions but that's not true. There's much more to people than the system you ascribe to suggests; that's my entire point. Ironically you seem to not take in enough information with your perceiving functions to make you realize this. Reality is not only how you think of it in your head, it's multi-faceted.

    For example, one of the reasons why I cannot agree with the Beebe model is because it cannot describe my high Fi use which is very much recognized by all those that actually know me well. It furthermore does not seem to truly describe Ne and Si as parent and child functions. My Si is in general quite under-developed and I don't really notice much of my Si-use or even look consciously look for an Si-perspective from a recreative point of view with the only exception perhaps being my fiction-writing, but that is not because I wish to engage Si actively. Rather my fiction often seems to stem from already being in an Si-mood and just like Jung suggested, Si must often be expressed creatively due to the complexity of Si-impressions. This doesn't mean that it fulfills the child archetype though.

    I do not feel the Beebe model can truly describe my reality and why should I subscribe to a model that doesn't? I also have troubles with how the Beebe model assumes that every person thinks or cognitively behaves the same. I don't think people are that stereotype and that people are much too complex for such a thing. This is why I have explored both enneagram and the MBTI and I am now exploring socionics more. These three models all have a different approach in trying to explain the reality of human cognition and behavior and learning more about each model gives a much more deeper idea of how human cognition works like. In the socionics model the 8th function is Te, not Fi for a Ti dominant. Which model is right and wrong here? So if the Beebe model works for you, then good, but don't assume it will work for everyone else. The Beebe model can't explain people such as Flatlander who seems to be dominantly Ni and Ti, but if that's true, then where's the Se and Te? I just don't put so much stock into theory if it cannot capture every aspect of reality. Then it clearly lacks fluidity and complexity.

    Hence I like Star Wars over Star Trek as the interactions in Star Trek comes of quite fake to me.

    Not that Star Wars is totally non fake, but it is a step in the right direction not having every convo politically correctly scripted.
    I really fail to see how you identifying authentic social expressions in science fiction shows has anything to do with Ni?

    Yeah but that is Ni... Not Ne BIG difference....
    I think Ni is as likely to look for the symbolic and archetypal in fiction like Ne is. That's pretty much how Ni is described as a function; a desire to look for the symbolic and archetypal. The difference is how they tie ideas together.
    At least if you go by the Bebee model, and I know you reject it and that is unfortunate cause it really works in the real world.
    And that's the problem exactly - I haven't noticed it. I feel enneagram describes our behavior better. I'm currently struggling with finding my sociotype because I cannot fit that model entirely either for example. Of course, I also wonder how much of the Forer effect is at play here; that we experience a phenomenon and think that it must be because of X because the model says so and then we already ignore that it could be because of a whole load of other causes or explanations but instead we choose to reinforce the model's point of view instead of unveiling the actual truth of things. And that's just my enneagram speaking.

    I would like to untangle the enneagram from my JCF understanding some day in the future.
    But if I'm to keep my sanity I think I need to do it with an INTJ. ;)
    I think you put too much stock into type and less stock in individuals ;)

    EDIT
    I actually think our differences has to do with enneagram perspectives rather than functions. 9s tend to want to see the place as something ideal and idyllic but 5s want to see the place as how things actually are. Obviously those views will clash because 5s think 9s over-idolize and romanticize the world and 9s will find the way 5s want to deconstruct their idyllic 9-world threatening. I also wouldn't overlook a potential wing 1 for you rather than 8 wing. There's definitely more super-ego influence in how you reason (how things should be in a universal sense) than gut-influence. I would also strongly look into your headfix being 6w5 over 5w4.

  9. #1008
    Unknown

    For example, one of the reasons why I cannot agree with the Beebe model is because it cannot describe my high Fi use which is very much recognized by all those that actually know me well. It furthermore does not seem to truly describe Ne and Si as parent and child functions. My Si is in general quite under-developed and I don't really notice much of my Si-use or even look consciously look for an Si-perspective from a recreative point of view with the only exception perhaps being my fiction-writing, but that is not because I wish to engage Si actively. Rather my fiction often seems to stem from already being in an Si-mood and just like Jung suggested, Si must often be expressed creatively due to the complexity of Si-impressions. This doesn't mean that it fulfills the child archetype though.

    I do not feel the Beebe model can truly describe my reality and why should I subscribe to a model that doesn't? I also have troubles with how the Beebe model assumes that every person thinks or cognitively behaves the same. I don't think people are that stereotype and that people are much too complex for such a thing. This is why I have explored both enneagram and the MBTI and I am now exploring socionics more. These three models all have a different approach in trying to explain the reality of human cognition and behavior and learning more about each model gives a much more deeper idea of how human cognition works like. In the socionics model the 8th function is Te, not Fi for a Ti dominant. Which model is right and wrong here? So if the Beebe model works for you, then good, but don't assume it will work for everyone else. The Beebe model can't explain people such as Flatlander who seems to be dominantly Ni and Ti, but if that's true, then where's the Se and Te? I just don't put so much stock into theory if it cannot capture every aspect of reality. Then it clearly lacks fluidity and complexity.
    @LeaT
    Ah well...
    That is all I really wanted. :)
    Lets agree to totally disagree on the fabric of reality.
    Cause that is how deep the disagreement goes... XD
    However I wish you well in your search for a meaningful perspective. ;)

    Basically the Bebee model predicts quite well for me who has such alternate realities.
    So I can be forewarned the inevitable clash. :-/
    Entropic thanked this post.

  10. #1009

    Still looking for someone to do a video with me by the way.
    esq thanked this post.

  11. #1010
    ISTJ - The Duty Fulfillers

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I was also considering if she's a P dom but I don't think she's an ISTJ. Then she would have tertiary feeling but her Fi is too strong to be tertiary in my opinion. Once you notice her Fi it's pretty much all over the place. ENFP could work.
    me, an extrovert? ROFLCOPTER

    it's been interesting seeing you and @hornet discuss. I'd do a video with you but I'm afraid I'll confuse you since I'm of an unknown type.

    btw, this thread now has 1984 thanks! like the legendary book that I've never read :O


     
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