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This is a discussion on The NF God within the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers forums, part of the Keirsey Temperament Forums category; Originally Posted by Llyralen BUT in my opinion he should have kept quiet more often. Eggs actly. If you watch ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    BUT in my opinion he should have kept quiet more often.
    Eggs actly. If you watch his older stuff, from when he was doing ... what did he call it ... "trews", he spoke a lot and said little. I stopped watching after a couple of videos as he kept talking and talking when it was obvious that his guests were infinitely better informed and had more interesting things to say, but he kept hogging all the screen time. Much noise, little substance. He took some time off at one point and seems to have his shit slightly better together these days. Still not very good at listening.

    There were many concepts I didn't get to hear from Cox and Cox is the one who has done this research and also thought about how to present the science, which is not always the easiest thing to do, but he is amazing.
    Cox is a very good science communicator. If you haven't, you should absolutely check out his various BBC series, especially Wonders of the Universe. Wonders of Life was also decent, as was The Infinite Monkey Cage podcast/radio show. He has done a few other things since, I haven't seen all of them.
    Llyralen thanked this post.

  2. #22

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin the Dendroid View Post
    Eggs actly. If you watch his older stuff, from when he was doing ... what did he call it ... "trews", he spoke a lot and said little. I stopped watching after a couple of videos as he kept talking and talking when it was obvious that his guests were infinitely better informed and had more interesting things to say, but he kept hogging all the screen time. Much noise, little substance. He took some time off at one point and seems to have his shit slightly better together these days. Still not very good at listening.



    Cox is a very good science communicator. If you haven't, you should absolutely check out his various BBC series, especially Wonders of the Universe. Wonders of Life was also decent, as was The Infinite Monkey Cage podcast/radio show. He has done a few other things since, I haven't seen all of them.
    I will watch those, actually. I started one of them earlier with my daughter.
    I had been introduced before from:



    I love WILTY, I've watched every episode to tatters. Just 6 more months until the next season!

  3. #23
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    My thought:
    A friend of mine can think erroneously that I'm like her on something, right? When I'm not. It doesn't change me...she just has to learn better and she might freak out when she realizes the truth, but I was myself the whole time, lets say.
    Would that be different with God?
    but you exist objectively and god only in the minds and words of people

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  5. #24

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
    but you exist objectively and god only in the minds and words of people
    I think God's objective existence or non-existence can't be proven either way. That's where faith comes in.
    I'm not sure that I really see it in exactly these terms or this clear-cut as this analogy about my friend would lead you to expect, but I suppose I made this question to this poster because I want to know what parts of what I am saying are challenging to people.
    I knew what I was saying would challenge people to look inward, but I didn't know it would feel like I was challenging their God, exactly. I have to figure out what is going on with individuals.

    Me, personally, if confronted with my own questions, I'd say that I probably do ignore everything about anything punitive from God. Does this mean my understanding of God is incomplete?
    Since I was able to show myself that my loved ones' views of God largely had to do with their first 2 functions and sometimes the suppression of their inferior functions, then I figure I could challenge myself in the following way:

    What if God is not interested in providing opportunities for growth or in letting me explore and appreciate this world? Instead what if God is driving more for blind obedience and malleability?

    What if God doesn't care about my pursuits to raise my children a certain way or doesn't agree with the things I've set as my ideals to strive for? What if he doesn't care if I am happy, but would rather I was more dutiful and productive? What if He is completely uninterested in helping me become liberated from fear or depression if they befall me? What if everything that I care about that I feel that He tenderly also cares about because he cares about me...what if none of those pursuits will be possible?
    I sometimes meet people who are trapped with pain and physical limitations.
    What if I were raped or something and felt like God had done nothing to keep me safe? When I have always depended on Him to keep me safe? And I thought He would warn me in some way or prevent it from happening.

    I actually had a neighbor whose granddaughter I used to baby-sit who very accidentally ran over his granddaughter in a freak accident and then later killed someone else in a car crash. How do you get through then?

    For someone with faith, a feeling of hope is pretty essential. What if on all of these things. Right now, I feel like I would still want communication with God to give it all meaning and that meaning would almost be the only redemption in some horrible accident like my neighbor had.
    On the other hand, people without faith must somehow get through these things... but I'm not sure what wisdom they find or what peace or how and that would be very interesting. All my life I've pretty much only known adults with faith to show me how they get through hard things.

  6. #25
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I think God's objective existence or non-existence can't be proven either way. That's where faith comes in.
    I'm not sure that I really see it in exactly these terms or this clear-cut as this analogy about my friend would lead you to expect, but I suppose I made this question to this poster because I want to know what parts of what I am saying are challenging to people.
    I knew what I was saying would challenge people to look inward, but I didn't know it would feel like I was challenging their God, exactly. I have to figure out what is going on with individuals.

    Me, personally, if confronted with my own questions, I'd say that I probably do ignore everything about anything punitive from God. Does this mean my understanding of God is incomplete?
    Since I was able to show myself that my loved ones' views of God largely had to do with their first 2 functions and sometimes the suppression of their inferior functions, then I figure I could challenge myself in the following way:

    What if God is not interested in providing opportunities for growth or in letting me explore and appreciate this world? Instead what if God is driving more for blind obedience and malleability?

    What if God doesn't care about my pursuits to raise my children a certain way or doesn't agree with the things I've set as my ideals to strive for? What if he doesn't care if I am happy, but would rather I was more dutiful and productive? What if He is completely uninterested in helping me become liberated from fear or depression if they befall me? What if everything that I care about that I feel that He tenderly also cares about because he cares about me...what if none of those pursuits will be possible?
    I sometimes meet people who are trapped with pain and physical limitations.
    What if I were raped or something and felt like God had done nothing to keep me safe? When I have always depended on Him to keep me safe? And I thought He would warn me in some way or prevent it from happening.

    I actually had a neighbor whose granddaughter I used to baby-sit who very accidentally ran over his granddaughter in a freak accident and then later killed someone else in a car crash. How do you get through then?

    For someone with faith, a feeling of hope is pretty essential. What if on all of these things. Right now, I feel like I would still want communication with God to give it all meaning and that meaning would almost be the only redemption in some horrible accident like my neighbor had.
    On the other hand, people without faith must somehow get through these things... but I'm not sure what wisdom they find or what peace or how and that would be very interesting. All my life I've pretty much only known adults with faith to show me how they get through hard things.
    That's the issue that points to God being a subjective human experience, that it's a matter of faith.
    If, somehow, today god were to objectively make its presence known to every and all humans the same way you and I exist, then it would cease to be god, he'd become a person, even if it's some weird powerful being. My view on this is that I would accept his existence but it would be the same as accepting the existence of any person, just with whatever extra abilities he'd have that we don't. He'd be like a ruler or a dictator and I don't see how he could be this benevolent creator people want to believe he is, plus it would be even less possible that he'd be a personal god/protector of each and every person. I think he'd be more like a scientist doing an experiment and we are the subjects, than anything else.
    But more than that, we now would have to move the goalpost and face the questions, why does 'god' exist? who created 'god'? and on and on it goes...
    UberY0shi and Llyralen thanked this post.

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
    That's the issue that points to God being a subjective human experience, that it's a matter of faith.
    If, somehow, today god were to objectively make its presence known to every and all humans the same way you and I exist, then it would cease to be god, he'd become a person, even if it's some weird powerful being. My view on this is that I would accept his existence but it would be the same as accepting the existence of any person, just with whatever extra abilities he'd have that we don't. He'd be like a ruler or a dictator and I don't see how he could be this benevolent creator people want to believe he is, plus it would be even less possible that he'd be a personal god/protector of each and every person. I think he'd be more like a scientist doing an experiment and we are the subjects, than anything else.
    But more than that, we now would have to move the goalpost and face the questions, why does 'god' exist? who created 'god'? and on and on it goes...
    I think I was asking the questions you mentioned at the bottom from a very young age, like maybe age 6. I like it though, and my religion asks those questions and offers definite answers to those questions.

    I can't speak for every religion, but a lot of religions actually do feel that God will dwell on earth and be universally accepted as God one day. I really want it to be Jesus, myself. There is kind of a description of what life would be like after that point in my religion. It is not supposed to last forever and is described as a time of beautiful peace. With some interesting things, like Satan being able to tempt the children born who had never been tempted in that life towards the end of that time period and then the earth turning into something else. A different kind of planet. Wow, it is weird for me to just talk about that with ambiguity and not hushed tones and mystery the way I usually hear it.
    AnneM thanked this post.

  8. #27
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I think I was asking the questions you mentioned at the bottom from a very young age, like maybe age 6. I like it though, and my religion asks those questions and offers definite answers to those questions.

    I can't speak for every religion, but a lot of religions actually do feel that God will dwell on earth and be universally accepted as God one day. I really want it to be Jesus, myself. There is kind of a description of what life would be like after that point in my religion. It is not supposed to last forever and is described as a time of beautiful peace. With some interesting things, like Satan being able to tempt the children born who had never been tempted in that life towards the end of that time period and then the earth turning into something else. A different kind of planet. Wow, it is weird for me to just talk about that with ambiguity and not hushed tones and mystery the way I usually hear it.
    and what are those answers?

    Then god would simply be some type of alien being that wants to rule, like the Goa'uld in Stargate. Those people just need someone to tell them what to do, another form of their subjective needs being expressed and projected into an image named God.
    Marvin the Dendroid thanked this post.

  9. #28

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Me, personally, if confronted with my own questions, I'd say that I probably do ignore everything about anything punitive from God. Does this mean my understanding of God is incomplete?
    I doubt you could find two intelligent believers with the exact same idea of god. Our understanding is rarely more complete than we are.

    For someone with faith, a feeling of hope is pretty essential. What if on all of these things. Right now, I feel like I would still want communication with God to give it all meaning and that meaning would almost be the only redemption in some horrible accident like my neighbor had.
    On the other hand, people without faith must somehow get through these things... but I'm not sure what wisdom they find or what peace or how and that would be very interesting. All my life I've pretty much only known adults with faith to show me how they get through hard things.
    It seems to me what you're really asking is, "God has been this parent to me that I can lay XYZ upon and trust and not be burdened by XYZ, and what if that isn't what God is". You're trying to define God, and some part of you worries that you haven't got quite the right definition.

    I don't think you need to define or understand God to receive solace and strength from God. It seems to me that the more you try to define God, the more you're inviting these worries into your life. If you feel God, why do you need to understand or define God? If God is who you say God is, would you even be able to comprehend God?

  10. #29

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin the Dendroid View Post
    I doubt you could find two intelligent believers with the exact same idea of god. Our understanding is rarely more complete than we are.



    It seems to me what you're really asking is, "God has been this parent to me that I can lay XYZ upon and trust and not be burdened by XYZ, and what if that isn't what God is". You're trying to define God, and some part of you worries that you haven't got quite the right definition.

    I don't think you need to define or understand God to receive solace and strength from God. It seems to me that the more you try to define God, the more you're inviting these worries into your life. If you feel God, why do you need to understand or define God? If God is who you say God is, would you even be able to comprehend God?
    Whatever it is that I知 doing, luckily I知 not feeling too worried. I don稚 feel like I知 seeking or expecting definition right now, instead I知 kind of amazed by the depth of my current ambiguity. I think THATs what I知 exploring/challenging/teasing out and that is new to me. A feeling that faith has returned in strength and yet none of the definitions that I am used to are maintained and I haven稚 gotten to talk to people about how they experience these things except here, for which I thank you. But we are now on the tip of the iceberg of my ambiguity I sense depths. All new. I guess this agrees with you, except for with my Fi I have to process how I feel about all of this before I知 able to really do much else you know? How can I be authentic until I have a better self-knowledge? Internal changes must be processed, not that I feel like I致e found definitive answers, but Ne and Fi must explore new territory and I知 thankful to be able to do so with my friend Marv and others here. : ).
    Marvin the Dendroid and AnneM thanked this post.

  11. #30

    Preface:

    I haven't fully organized my thoughts on this topic yet, but I figured I should type up a post instead of processing for another three weeks.

    My relationship with God is much different than other people I know, including other INFPs and other Christians. Also, my beliefs are different. i.e. I do not believe Jesus is God and hell is not a place of eternal judgment and in this discussion the most important being that I believe God is a real being. I mostly just focus on my own relationship with God instead of on other peoples' relationship, but I'll try to decipher the motivations of the other types in my church. I don't think "NF" is enough of a separator between how people view God, and I find that using the first two functions that people have is a more useful tool to distinguish how people are doing in their relationship with God.

    "Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?"
    While everyone in my church attempts to have the good values as outlined in the Bible, different types definitely put more weight on some areas more than others.

    When I say "acts of godly devotion" in the list below, I'm mainly thinking preaching, but it also includes saying encouraging words to fellow believers, giving talks, construction work, and the like. The following is my evaluation of how the types connect with God in my congregation and NOT the people I talk to when preaching.. that's a whole another post.

    ::


    INFP/ENFP- seem to find developing a personal relationship with God the easiest. Compared to expected distributions of NFPs in the population, a large number of these concentrate in my church. These people can see God more readily through the Bible and more abstract thinking. Appreciates God on his cardinal qualities more than other ones.

    INTJ- seem to find developing a personal relationship with God the second easiest. Study very hard, and rely heavily on reading the Bible to see God as real. See above.

    INFJ/ENFJ- please don't ask me what these people think about. Even when they open up and explain their thoughts to me, I do not follow. Like the NFPs, they seem to do quite well in their ability to develop a relationship with God and are able to adapt their values more readily than most.

    ENTJ- have only met three and would call each of them exemplary Christians. Good people, no idea what makes them tick.

    ESFP/ISFP- seem to struggle in viewing God as a real being. It seems they have to perform acts of godly devotion in order to convince themselves God is real. Living a Christian life is hard, so when life is able to squeeze away time to do godly things, their personal study does not hold them up very well. There are only a few SFPs in my congregation though SFPs are supposed to make up a large portion of the population.

    ISTP/ESTP- there are very few ISTP/ESTPs in my congregation, the two that I know never let me into their heads.

    ISFJ- I don't understand these people, but I always see them out and about applying Bible principles. Like the SFPs I think they put high value on doing to believing. Large number of them in my congregation.

    ISTJ- seem immovable in their beliefs or much weaker in faith, and seems to be very dependent on how hard they study the Bible. Some of them routinely perform acts of godly devotion, yet their faith does not seem to be much built up by them. Those that study hard can view God as very real and make the corresponding sacrifices to follow God more fully, but there are many who do not and struggle.

    ESTJ- there are no ESTJs in my congregation for me to comment on.

    ESFJ- have high hurdles to overcome. New ESFJs struggle heavily and rely on their relationship with certain people in my congregation to keep them coming. Lock them in a prison, and the new ESFJs may struggle to sustain their faith. Those that overcome their Ti hurdle seem to be well balanced in their ability to view God through physical acts of devotion and personal study.

    ENTP- there are no ENTPs in my congregation for me to comment on.

    INTP- See God differently than other types. They're always bringing up interesting points from their personal study and seem to have a broader view of who God is than the other types because they focus on his other qualities- like his patience as compared to his love. Somehow they get by with study as compared to working for God, which they do comparatively less of.

    (I'm sure the post above doesn't make too much sense, or may not have answered the question well. I'm having a hard time organizing these thoughts.)

    In conclusion:
    Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?
    Yes.
    Marvin the Dendroid and AnneM thanked this post.


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