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Do negative or hurtful past experiences affect your behavior negatively?

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This is a discussion on Do negative or hurtful past experiences affect your behavior negatively? within the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers forums, part of the Keirsey Temperament Forums category; Originally Posted by Llyralen I don’t know if you read the post just ahead of yours. Some of us think ...

  1. #61

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I don’t know if you read the post just ahead of yours. Some of us think it’s due to choice and agency. I have a hard time conceptualizing anything different than it being about choice, personally. I’m curious about your (and many people’s here) way of thinking: do you think some people consciously work to get healed and healthy after negative experiences?
    People think with the illusion of free will, but again, it's an illusion, the person acts that way because of how they are programmed to act, due to their make up, to do their brain chemicals, their past experiences etc, people think they are in control and that's the point, you believe you are the one steering the wheel.

    It's wishful thinking to believe you can control all odds, many people cannot cope with the fact they have no real control.

    The most common theme is highly empathic person that went through abuse saying "I was abused yet i don't abuse others unlike YOU" they believe it's all choice because to them....it was all choice, they cannot grasp that others with similiar or less severe past can turn into horrible people.

    Personally i had traumatic childhood and now have a personality disorder, i did not choose it , it just happened, all about that nature vs nurture, nature is a loaded gun and enviroment is the trigger. A depressed person did not choose to have depression, a person with BPD did not choose to have it, a highly empathic person did not choose to be that way, they were "gifted" with the right genes for the coping mechanism.

    Now, becoming that way is not your choice in any way shape or form BUT trying to get better, healthier IS your choice.
    Aridela, Llyralen and AnneM thanked this post.

  2. #62

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksiaze View Post
    People think with the illusion of free will, but again, it's an illusion, the person acts that way because of how they are programmed to act, due to their make up, to do their brain chemicals, their past experiences etc, people think they are in control and that's the point, you believe you are the one steering the wheel.

    It's wishful thinking to believe you can control all odds, many people cannot cope with the fact they have no real control.

    The most common theme is highly empathic person that went through abuse saying "I was abused yet i don't abuse others unlike YOU" they believe it's all choice because to them....it was all choice, they cannot grasp that others with similiar or less severe past can turn into horrible people.

    Personally i had traumatic childhood and now have a personality disorder, i did not choose it , it just happened, all about that nature vs nurture, nature is a loaded gun and enviroment is the trigger. A depressed person did not choose to have depression, a person with BPD did not choose to have it, a highly empathic person did not choose to be that way, they were "gifted" with the right genes for the coping mechanism.

    Now, becoming that way is not your choice in any way shape or form BUT trying to get better, healthier IS your choice.
    "BUT trying to get better, healthier IS your choice."

    What if someone just chose to be healthier before the unhealthy part even began? Does the choice part of it have to come after the effect?

  3. #63

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksiaze View Post
    People think with the illusion of free will, but again, it's an illusion, the person acts that way because of how they are programmed to act, due to their make up, to do their brain chemicals, their past experiences etc, people think they are in control and that's the point, you believe you are the one steering the wheel.

    It's wishful thinking to believe you can control all odds, many people cannot cope with the fact they have no real control.

    The most common theme is highly empathic person that went through abuse saying "I was abused yet i don't abuse others unlike YOU" they believe it's all choice because to them....it was all choice, they cannot grasp that others with similiar or less severe past can turn into horrible people.

    Personally i had traumatic childhood and now have a personality disorder, i did not choose it , it just happened, all about that nature vs nurture, nature is a loaded gun and enviroment is the trigger. A depressed person did not choose to have depression, a person with BPD did not choose to have it, a highly empathic person did not choose to be that way, they were "gifted" with the right genes for the coping mechanism.

    Now, becoming that way is not your choice in any way shape or form BUT trying to get better, healthier IS your choice.
    The thing is, you never see the unhealthy part coming, it stays in the shadows, doing it's thing, growing on you with each year as you are growing up then before you know it, you feel like suddenly, you have been impacted by it, now you are different....the process was so gradual you didn't notice it.

    With personality disorders in particular, i would go as far as to say it is IMPOSSIBLE to fix it before it gets unhealthy, the catalyst for a PD starts early, 3-6 years old, the core is shaken in some way, seed is planted, disordered individual is completely unaware that he is disordered.

    The choice part comes after it simply due to the awarness of the individual, teenagers not exactly known for being introspective. Now those cases are "extreme" , light abuse or some basic coping mechanisms that develop "later" in life could be easier to deal with

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  5. #64

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksiaze View Post
    The thing is, you never see the unhealthy part coming, it stays in the shadows, doing it's thing, growing on you with each year as you are growing up then before you know it, you feel like suddenly, you have been impacted by it, now you are different....the process was so gradual you didn't notice it.

    With personality disorders in particular, i would go as far as to say it is IMPOSSIBLE to fix it before it gets unhealthy, the catalyst for a PD starts early, 3-6 years old, the core is shaken in some way, seed is planted, disordered individual is completely unaware that he is disordered.

    The choice part comes after it simply due to the awarness of the individual, teenagers not exactly known for being introspective. Now those cases are "extreme" , light abuse or some basic coping mechanisms that develop "later" in life could be easier to deal with
    Earlier in the thread I did mention my views on when things happen to young growing brains. It’s just adaptation at those times, usually. Lying can be an adaptation or disassociation can be.

    It does depend on the severity and the age of the person for sure imo. We agree on the awareness. Some teenagers are more aware than others. There are also other factors like if they have other people in their lives who are truly kind— other people who are examples, basically.

    So, yes, some things are not someone’s fault but deciding to stay stuck after awareness can be.

    I see a lot of people in their 20’s who decide to label mild personality clashes in their family growing up as abusive and decide they are messed up.... when there are other people who have actually been abused... and it gets used as an excuse. Not that I don’t think that these people shouldn’t also go to therapy, because they should. I wish mental health services were much more available. In fact, I go to therapy for mild stuff myself because luckily I can. I guess not everyone can. I also think the number of effective counselors out there is kind of 1 out of 5– you’ve got to get a good match for you.

    However, I have seen people get over some really horrendous abuse and be wonderful loving people.

  6. #65

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Earlier in the thread I did mention my views on when things happen to young growing brains. It’s just adaptation at those times, usually. Lying can be an adaptation or disassociation can be.

    It does depend on the severity and the age of the person for sure imo. We agree on the awareness. Some teenagers are more aware than others. There are also other factors like if they have other people in their lives who are truly kind— other people who are examples, basically.

    So, yes, some things are not someone’s fault but deciding to stay stuck after awareness can be.

    I see a lot of people in their 20’s who decide to label mild personality clashes in their family growing up as abusive and decide they are messed up.... when there are other people who have actually been abused... and it gets used as an excuse. Not that I don’t think that these people shouldn’t also go to therapy, because they should. I wish mental health services were much more available. In fact, I go to therapy for mild stuff myself because luckily I can. I guess not everyone can. I also think the number of effective counselors out there is kind of 1 out of 5– you’ve got to get a good match for you.

    However, I have seen people get over some really horrendous abuse and be wonderful loving people.


    I am a victim of emotional and psychological abuse from the maternal side of my family, including my mum. Overall they're just some very messed up people who were not fit to guide a child towards a healthy life (read my previous reply to this thread).

    I must disagree with you that mild personality clashes are always just mild personality clashes. Oftentimes they reflect deeper issues in interpersonal dynamics, world view, mental condition etc. and they can give insight into people's fundamental beliefs and ways of thinking / doing things. Sure, in many cases, mild (not serious) personality clashes are just that and should not affect the overall relationship between two individuals. However, what I look for is a persistent pattern of thinking and doing and use that to draw deeper conclusions about a person's psychology. In a way I've learned to do it because of all the dysfunctional dynamics I was exposed to, but took until my late teenage years to fully realize.

    I chose to fight for myself, for my sanity, and count myself among the lucky as I was able to get a grasp of what I was really going through, how the way I was treated was not normal, and realize that the only way out was to craw and claw my way out of the abyss. Today, although the scars never leave and I'm still affected by these experiences, these struggles have become a part of who I am, and I see the place where it all happened as The House That Built Me.

    I also realize there are many who've gone through the same as I have, and even worse than I have, and aren't able to cope nearly as well as I have. My fullest sympathy goes to them because they might have personalities that make them much more susceptible to outside influence. I admit one of the factors that has contributed to my resilience in the face of abuse (although there were many points where I truly felt hopeless) is that I've always been a very internally focused and introspective person who constantly tries to protect and update my understanding of myself and things. I imagine it would be much more difficult for those who place a lot more psychological weight on external support systems and external forms of "approval."

    At my core I'm someone who ultimately works things through on the inside, though I do seek external support from people who understand me. My experience with therapy and counseling, though, is quite different from yours. I eventually stopped seeing them because A) I gradually learned to cope without them. B) Perhaps more importantly, I learned that they weren't really of help. I was always told, one way or another, that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the world, and that any failure on my part was due to my lack of ability to adapt to it and "re-frame" it. That wasn't helpful at all. In the end those therapists and counselors I saw were as good as having someone to vent to and just getting the stuff out of my system.

    Later, I learned that the fundamental nature of their work is meant to be detached, analytical, and impersonal. That their "caring" was only part of being professional. Not helpful at all when I needed understanding, justification, affirmation, and intimacy.

    I've been left with a bit of a combative streak at times that makes me extremely vigilant towards any rules or any form of authority. I have a hard time hearing about and seeing others be oppressed, and it truly makes me mad. However, one could also argue that I've had the rebel, the individualist in me though it usually manifests as something subtle and quiet.

    Had I not gone through all of this crap, I might not, or it might have taken far longer for me to understand some things about people that I now understand. I wish I had a better past, but I also remember the fact that it's done some good for me.
    Red Panda and Sei35 thanked this post.

  7. #66

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Earlier in the thread I did mention my views on when things happen to young growing brains. It’s just adaptation at those times, usually. Lying can be an adaptation or disassociation can be.

    It does depend on the severity and the age of the person for sure imo. We agree on the awareness. Some teenagers are more aware than others. There are also other factors like if they have other people in their lives who are truly kind— other people who are examples, basically.

    So, yes, some things are not someone’s fault but deciding to stay stuck after awareness can be.

    I see a lot of people in their 20’s who decide to label mild personality clashes in their family growing up as abusive and decide they are messed up.... when there are other people who have actually been abused... and it gets used as an excuse. Not that I don’t think that these people shouldn’t also go to therapy, because they should. I wish mental health services were much more available. In fact, I go to therapy for mild stuff myself because luckily I can. I guess not everyone can. I also think the number of effective counselors out there is kind of 1 out of 5– you’ve got to get a good match for you.

    However, I have seen people get over some really horrendous abuse and be wonderful loving people.
    Okay so, let's think of it differently, eliminate labeling thing as good coping and bad coping and instead lookg at it as simply traits and coping mechanisms with no "deeper" meaning.

    You met people who were abused badly but you are focusing on the wrong thing, you're focusing on the "wonderful loving people" aspect, people who were abused and "turned out good" simply used different coping mechanisms that INTERNALIZE their pain so instead of hurting others, they hurt themselves.

    They suffer from depression, anxiety, paranoia, lack of trust, fear of abandonment, proness to guilt, shame, severe insecurities. They're "good" people but heavily damaged, they're just damaged in a way where you are less likely to say "WTF you're a horrible person"

  8. #67

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksiaze View Post
    Okay so, let's think of it differently, eliminate labeling thing as good coping and bad coping and instead lookg at it as simply traits and coping mechanisms with no "deeper" meaning.

    You met people who were abused badly but you are focusing on the wrong thing, you're focusing on the "wonderful loving people" aspect, people who were abused and "turned out good" simply used different coping mechanisms that INTERNALIZE their pain so instead of hurting others, they hurt themselves.

    They suffer from depression, anxiety, paranoia, lack of trust, fear of abandonment, proness to guilt, shame, severe insecurities. They're "good" people but heavily damaged, they're just damaged in a way where you are less likely to say "WTF you're a horrible person"
    You are assuming they are horribly damaged, that is incorrect. They fought their way out and healed. Things they dealt with they dealt with. I’d say about 1/4 of people have been through very harsh things. People can heal.
    Last edited by Llyralen; 07-23-2019 at 04:59 PM.

  9. #68

    Quote Originally Posted by WraithOfNightmare View Post
    I am a victim of emotional and psychological abuse from the maternal side of my family, including my mum. Overall they're just some very messed up people who were not fit to guide a child towards a healthy life (read my previous reply to this thread).

    I must disagree with you that mild personality clashes are always just mild personality clashes. Oftentimes they reflect deeper issues in interpersonal dynamics, world view, mental condition etc. and they can give insight into people's fundamental beliefs and ways of thinking / doing things. Sure, in many cases, mild (not serious) personality clashes are just that and should not affect the overall relationship between two individuals. However, what I look for is a persistent pattern of thinking and doing and use that to draw deeper conclusions about a person's psychology. In a way I've learned to do it because of all the dysfunctional dynamics I was exposed to, but took until my late teenage years to fully realize.

    I chose to fight for myself, for my sanity, and count myself among the lucky as I was able to get a grasp of what I was really going through, how the way I was treated was not normal, and realize that the only way out was to craw and claw my way out of the abyss. Today, although the scars never leave and I'm still affected by these experiences, these struggles have become a part of who I am, and I see the place where it all happened as The House That Built Me.

    I also realize there are many who've gone through the same as I have, and even worse than I have, and aren't able to cope nearly as well as I have. My fullest sympathy goes to them because they might have personalities that make them much more susceptible to outside influence. I admit one of the factors that has contributed to my resilience in the face of abuse (although there were many points where I truly felt hopeless) is that I've always been a very internally focused and introspective person who constantly tries to protect and update my understanding of myself and things. I imagine it would be much more difficult for those who place a lot more psychological weight on external support systems and external forms of "approval."

    At my core I'm someone who ultimately works things through on the inside, though I do seek external support from people who understand me. My experience with therapy and counseling, though, is quite different from yours. I eventually stopped seeing them because A) I gradually learned to cope without them. B) Perhaps more importantly, I learned that they weren't really of help. I was always told, one way or another, that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the world, and that any failure on my part was due to my lack of ability to adapt to it and "re-frame" it. That wasn't helpful at all. In the end those therapists and counselors I saw were as good as having someone to vent to and just getting the stuff out of my system.

    Later, I learned that the fundamental nature of their work is meant to be detached, analytical, and impersonal. That their "caring" was only part of being professional. Not helpful at all when I needed understanding, justification, affirmation, and intimacy.

    I've been left with a bit of a combative streak at times that makes me extremely vigilant towards any rules or any form of authority. I have a hard time hearing about and seeing others be oppressed, and it truly makes me mad. However, one could also argue that I've had the rebel, the individualist in me though it usually manifests as something subtle and quiet.

    Had I not gone through all of this crap, I might not, or it might have taken far longer for me to understand some things about people that I now understand. I wish I had a better past, but I also remember the fact that it's done some good for me.
    Yes, this is the attitude I am talking about. A good example.

    I’m not sure how different our counseling experiences have been. Last year I remember saying on PerC “Counseling doesn’t help”. Not for me— I don’t deal with depression. Although I didn’t get a lot of help from counselors either. I deal with a husband who did have severe depression. I think I got him into at least 8 counselors over 14 years of marriage. None helped, drugs didn’t help. It felt very bleak. I finally decided to try again after someone raves about their counselor. She truly cares and that makes all the difference. She doesn’t just listen, either. Anyway, my husband has completely changed. No meds, only sees her occasionally now. A different guy I’m married to.
    Me— with my internal locus of control— I feel like I have to find a way. I was starting to get depressed just because nothing seemed to be working and without that shrewd of hope or knowing how to work on it then things seem bleak.
    But just allowing yourself or situations “to be” is a very hard task for me and I’m kind of glad of it, although there are areas of that school of thought I have to learn and explore— and I do it kicking and screaming pretty much. Lol.


     
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