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NF's and Sensors

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This is a discussion on NF's and Sensors within the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers forums, part of the Keirsey Temperament Forums category; With some sacrifice on both sides. Unless sharing some mutual interest, in which case it works perfectly fine, even beneficially... ...

  1. #11

    With some sacrifice on both sides.

    Unless sharing some mutual interest, in which case it works perfectly fine, even beneficially... but most of the time with N and S in the same convo, both people loose out a bit on what they want to talk about and the way it gets discussed.

    When chatting with my ISFJ mom, for instance, I usually have to stop and rethink then translate what I want to say in more concrete terms. Frequently I forget to do this and what comes out of my mouth just confuses her to bits. Especially the most far-reaching metaphors. We've had good results though when I translate those by building a plausible real life scenario and helping her see herself in it.

    I still don't 'get' some of the implications of what she talks about either.
    Our humor can be a bit of a mismatch, too... sometimes she repeats these jokes to me and I'm left just staring at her all perplexed. Like yeah, that was the obvious conclusion, how is this funny? Or my many protests of "but wait, that isn't accurate..." and then she tells me that jokes don't have to be true (sidenote: yes they do! or else the connections that form them break down)
    Whereas my jokes are so super dry they are often easy to miss in ordinary conversation.

    Many of the sensors I've met have a tendency to see me as a total drip. Based on moments when I didn't get what they were trying to convey right. Like when a friend was house painting and trying to show me how to cut in so I could help, instead I got banned from painting after doing a mere foot of baseboard.
    Or when my ISTP father (builder) considered my ideas for better work flow in a house he was designing to be a waste of funds, and stopped seeking my opinion when he polled the other females for whatever feedback he was actually looking for. Usually he just added a few more landscaping bushes afterwards. to the most boring cookie cutter houses in the world.
    secondpassing and FerryMerry thanked this post.

  2. #12

    Sensors are like more than half the population.

    I'm not going to adjust my behaviour based on the fact that someone may be a sensor.

    I know most people are sensors therefore I keep my wild musings and what ifs to be discussed with fellow intuitives (though I have had plenty a deep conversation with sensors too; they're not incapable of deep though, just less inclined to do philosophise all day).

    That being said, some of the best conversations I had were with Sensors (mainly ISTXs).
    Last edited by Aridela; 08-10-2019 at 05:21 AM.

  3. #13

    I don't treat sensors any different than I treat intuitives.

    I've found incredibly stupid intuitives as I've found incredibly dumb sensors. I have also found amazing intuitives and fantastic sensors.

    Sensors make up a good majority of my friends (and people I find crushable) and if it weren't for the obnoxious MBTI division, most people in the real world wouldn't give a rat's ass about sensor vs. intuitive dividing.
    Most would be able to relate and bond with each other.

    I've found intuitives who balk at me saying something bizarre and sensors who seek to understand or empathize. Similarly, I've talked to intuitives about practical, every day life stuff while some sensor friends seek me out to ask about the spiritual/supernatural.
    ai.tran.75 and Shrodingers drink thanked this post.

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  5. #14

    I believe culture may have something to do with this, but what I can say is East Asia on the whole isn't exactly NF, or N friendly. The people here (mainland China) tend to be very pragmatic-oriented and not many are into the discussion of things they don't see as having immediate / tangible relevance to their daily lives, even among many of the "educated". There is a general attitude of apathy / disinterest / stoicism towards many of the things I love to discuss, such as politics, philosophy, and spirituality among others. The whole cultural ethos is not one that promotes independent, broad-minded, and very engaged modes of thought. As much as the CCP likes to pay lip service to the idea of cultivating a non-materialistic culture, they know how effective the poison of modern-day materialism and consumerism is as a tool to divert the minds of youth away from the deep social and political issues that lay beneath the facade of stability the government has created through economic development. To many people here, economic development and stability is the be-all-end-all and as long as there is this stability (or rather, an illusion of stability that's masking a burning crucible of suppression and oppression) there's nothing to worry about. I really feel a bit sad and I believe this part of the world needs a lot more N attributes.

    I'd say majority of mainland Chinese and the mainland ethos is very SFJ / STJ. There's definitely a lack of rational thought, but there is also a lack of deep insight into matters other than those concerning the mundane (especially money, money, money). Imagination, innovation, outside-the-box thinking and speculating about many future possibilities isn't that welcomed here. Not many people will understand you because you are, as a result of both explicit and implicit social coding, expected to simply "know your place" and life is supposed to be the fulfillment of a series of roles and obligations in a linear, no-nonsense fashion without focusing too much on "Truth" or the depth of your personal feelings and emotions (yet funny enough, there's so much emotional drama when anything involving ridiculous concepts like "face" is involved). "Truth" often isn't welcomed here and it's seen as a waste of time and energy to be in pursuit of any "Truth".

    Dialectic thinking, at least how it's practiced in China, often leads to an amoral / stoic world view. While Western linear philosophical thinking could do better by taking more perspectives into an integrated account and sometimes I feel Western philosophy tries to classify too much, dialectic thinking as practiced in the East seems to downplay the fact that oftentimes there is not only an objective right / wrong, but there is also a clear and pressing need to make a correct moral judgment in response to this objective right / wrong. As an N type with dominant Fi (but I assume it would be the same for all NFs to one degree or another), I have very strong convictions and beliefs on what's right or wrong. When I express these feelings, I'm often met with apathy, bewilderment, or even ridicule from some of the locals who think they are know-it-alls with their dialectic world view. I often get called "immature", "naive" when I express these clear views.

    I don't know about S types from other parts of the world, but being a Chinese-Canadian who grew up mostly in a predominantly Chinese suburb of Metro Vancouver who's now living in China, I often find my imagination, my views, my insights ignored or scrutinized because they're not of immediate practical relevance (or so they think, never say never). It's this very "S" based approach towards life among many people in my ethnic community and country of heritage that leaves me quite sad a lot of times.
    Llyralen and secondpassing thanked this post.

  6. #15

    @WraithOfNightmare , I find your account very interesting. From the news it sounds like there is a lot going on there right now with oppression and Hong Kong. I’ve really found lately that it feels so nice when our Fi can find common ground with others when the nation is doing things that seem so wrong. I hope you get to talk to some individuals with your same political views— even just on PerC .
    I see how important for some types conformity is— it’s how the learn, it’s how they trust— and NFPs are far on the other side of thinking conformity is important. Right/wrong is definitely more important for us and we want the big picture to be working towards goals that will improve the future.
    Anyway, thank you for writing about your experience.

  7. #16

    Go Hong Kong. "One Country Two Systems" was planned for 50 years, 1997-2047. There has never been a clear statement on what could / will happen to Hong Kong in 2047, but when Deng was in power it was said that he and other reformists intended for mainland China to follow Hong Kong's system of democracy and form a united, democratic Chinese nation. Wen Jiabao, the former Premier (Prime Minister) of China under Hu Jintao (Xi Jinping's predecessor), said in an interview (post-retirement) that he envisions a fully democratic China in the decades to come.

    Students in China still study "Deng Xiaoping's Theories" but it's sheer hypocrisy that what the government's doing now is turning its back on what Deng proposed, which was China's continuing reform and gravitation towards more civil and even political freedoms. The whole anti-corruption campaign is just as much of a move to stamp out anyone who opposes his regime as it is to take out actual corruption. Nobody really knows how Xi even came to power, there are other sons of early CCP leaders (called "princelings") and Xi's just one with that sort of pedigree. Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao were selected by Deng Xiaoping, and they were very mild compared to Xi.

    China's taking a turn towards becoming a totalitarian, digital authoritarian state with worldly ambitions. If China becomes the most powerful country in the world, surpassing the US, its combination of an authoritarian system, a large, brainwashed / docile population, and digital advancements will make it far more frightening than the things the US and Western powers have done. While electoral democracy is far from a perfect system, it's the best we've got in the context of a sizable nation-state when it comes to people having the opportunity to present differing voices. The Communist Party is NOT China, and it has NO right to claim itself as China's Manifest Destiny and the next step in the Chinese people's political evolution. Any arguments that "democracy is not suitable for China and the Chinese people" is BULLSHIT. I feel that if China were an electoral democracy it would be far easier to manage than India. Why? India's got many MAJOR ethno-linguistic groups. China is 90% Han Chinese and there are several cultural factors giving Chinese people a far greater level of unity and commonality from place to place compared to a country like India. India's population is almost as big as China's and just keeping the country together is a tough enough job, yet a democratic India still exists despite the far lower level of homogeneity ethnically and culturally compared to China.

    "Chinese have no precedence on an intellectual / philosophical level when it comes to a democratic tradition."-Many, if not most countries, were monarchies at one point. You don't need "precedence." Why not learn the good things from the outside world and start something new, even if they may not be originally from your existing culture? Just because "it's always been this way" doesn't mean it's worthy of being kept. There are some things I believe in that happen to follow the majority, but I am rarely someone who follows anything social or cultural without asking questions. Questions must be asked, even if they sound ridiculous at first (as long as it does not go against my Fi). Ideas take time to refine and sink in. I'm sure slavery abolitionists in the 18th and 19th centuries were viewed by many as the outcasts and pariahs of their societies, yet slavery was eventually abolished and nowadays it's widely considered to be an unacceptable practice.

    This also brings me to something that really bugs me about the Chinese / East Asian mentality: Being overly focused on the PAST and feeling the past can be used to infer the future almost 100% of the time. While I believe the past CAN often be used to infer future patterns in many cases (I have Si as my 3rd function), there are also times where we must put the past behind and be open to new possibilities that may very well lead to a better future. "If it's always been done this way, therefore it must remain this way" is a mentality held by many people here, even when there are clear drawbacks and harmful aspects that are in sore need of change.

    The CCP, and many Chinese people to an extent, always blame "the other" when something goes wrong. They don't seem to recognize that challenging the status quo can come from sane, intelligent, and independent minds. When there's something wrong this current government often blames "the Americans", "the West" etc. When some people here who are in positions of "authority" are acting unreasonably and get challenged by the people who are sick of their ways, they often respond with "who told you to oppose me?" rather than accepting the fact that justified resistance comes from sane, rational, independent minds and NOT some outside force working to undermine said authority. I'm sure this tendency to scapegoat is far from unique to China and the Chinese government, but I'm beginning to notice it quite strongly.

    I'm much more skeptical of the group than I am of the individual (with exceptions, such as Xi Jinping and other dictators). The group, when led in the wrong direction, had far more potential to damage and destroy than the individual. Unfortunately, some strong and narcissistic individuals can sway entire groups of people to act in controlled and dehumanized ways. In a highly collectivist culture like China (and 20% of the world's people), it's really a case of the nail that sticks out getting hammered down, or screwing itself back into place because there's no other like it and it'll get drowned in the silence of the masses.

    There's little regard for privacy in the Western sense here in China. Privacy, as understood by Westerners, is a fairly recent concept in China. Traditionally, "privacy" as a word was connoted to being bad / having something to hide / having an agenda. It's a lack of privacy and boundaries in Chinese culture that the government's taking full advantage of. If people don't respect it / demand it and accept the lack of boundaries as it is, the progress of civil rights and freedoms with civil society being a check and balance to the
    higher ups" has been mostly stagnant with the exception of the time leading up to 1989, when China was in its first decade of economic reform after Mao's death.

    It's really a pity because China has made so many cultural contributions to the world and I feel the country and people have so much potential to be more, to be better. There was even a period during Chinese history that was more philosophically inclined, perhaps it can be described as being more N. It was the Spring and Autumn / Warring States Period where different philosophies (I'm sure some would have been more NF-friendly than others) competed for influence, rather than the Confucian ideological hegemony that was adopted during the Western Han under Emperor Wu (Liu Che). The Tang Dynasty was also remarkably open for feudal China, and it was an era where Buddhism and Daoism were quite influential. However, the Tang definitely stands out as the exception, rather than the norm for imperial China. The Song reverted to a strict Confucian view of society and governance.

    The Chinese are definitely an intelligent people with the capacity for social progress, if only the cultural and political roadblocks could be removed significantly or completely. Despite all of my criticisms, the majority of people here are decent at heart and China (perhaps Asia) overall is far safer than most Western countries.

    On a concluding note, while I am against gun ownership being out of control, the only time I believe gun ownership on a mass scale could be justified is to act as a deterrent or an offensive force against an oppressive regime that goes as far as to crack down on unarmed protesters using the national military (though technically China's got no "separate" armed forces, the PLA's the armed wing of the CCP), and Communist China's one of them.
    Last edited by WraithOfNightmare; 08-15-2019 at 08:29 AM.
    Llyralen and Neetee thanked this post.

  8. #17

    Growing up in a family of sensors, I learned to communicate with them using fewer metaphors and by using direct, concrete language whenever possible. My ISTJ brother and father get hostile when I use analogies and pop culture references to get a point across. With them, I use the same style of communication I use in the business world. Conversing with my N buddies is like a friendly game of jousting where we throw obscure movie references and cultural witicisms back and forth. Its all about creating vivid mental pictures for each other without saying the actual words we're trying to convey.
    Llyralen thanked this post.

  9. #18

    There are S types who may be better versed in the workings of NFs (or Ns in general) or at least try to be accommodating towards NFs or Ns in general, but I feel that even with the relatively more open S types (especially referring to the SJs) there is a feeling of asymmetry past a certain point as to how far they'd go, either willingly or as a matter of their ability to comprehend, to not only understand us more, but to appreciate us and integrate with us. This might feel a bit like an asymmetrical relationship from our perspective because although we can begin to appreciate the fact that they're willing to see things from our perspective, what we ultimately need is that resonance on a further level, a mutual kindred spirit of general agreement (note, we don't have to agree wholly on everything). It's hard to describe using words, but I know when it's there and when it's not. Vice versa, we're only able or willing to integrate ourselves into their worlds and the way they choose to live (much more physical, spatial) up to a certain degree. To say that the disconnect does not exist would be an inaccurate perception.
    Llyralen thanked this post.

  10. #19
  11. #20

    For me, as an NT, its just pure pain to even watch it.

    Lies->emotional manipulation->sex,money,or fame explo->ditch.

    Its like paraciting.

    And then, THEN they say the NF was useless to guys or that they were a victim to gals.

    Just ... grose

    But. Then again. N men get disgusted 1000 times faster than S men, so.. But thats before the mutual unannounced agreements. so..

    Its the way the world works. Via lies.

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