Cluelessness About The Operation of Emotions - Page 4

Cluelessness About The Operation of Emotions

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This is a discussion on Cluelessness About The Operation of Emotions within the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects forums, part of the Keirsey Temperament Forums category; There must be an infinite amount of attempts to separate "emotions" and "feelings" @ Abraxas . Notably, your "emotions happen, ...

  1. #31

    There must be an infinite amount of attempts to separate "emotions" and "feelings" @Abraxas . Notably, your "emotions happen, but feelings are a decision" isn't what's often proposed -- emotions as bodily, involuntarily reactions, feelings as (equally involuntarily) follow-up in the brain -- either. And given that there can be feelings without emotions, in the aforementioned definition, this, too, has issues. As far as I'm aware, there is no full consensus even in science.

    Anyway (also for that reason), there is no good reason to separate them in everyday talk, and even threads such as this, when it's clear what is meant. Conversely, it very much is relevant to be precise in terms of quantity, because that is where the actual difference is. "Emotions happen", yes -- but the scale matters! That's where all the information is. "Everyone experiences emotions/feelings" (or "Feelers also ...") is equal parts true and pointless, it yields no insight.


    Quote Originally Posted by TB_Wisdom View Post
    In a sense, the more you value Thinking and disapprove of Feeling, the more Feeling will be unconscious and behave like a primitive or inferior function, giving rise to various complexes and making you a target for Feeling-based manipulation by those who are more comfortable using Feeling (cf. Psychological Types ch. 10, C.Jung).
    I can't confirm this, and in fact, would propose the opposite. People who aren't in touch with their feelings will have an easier time to resist -- either because they weren't even aware there was an attempt of manipulation and they "should have done something" (happens all the time to me), or because whatever is felt is discarded, precisely because there is no shortcut, feeling-->action, but always a check in-between.

  2. #32

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    There must be an infinite amount of attempts to separate "emotions" and "feelings" @Abraxas. Notably, your "emotions happen, but feelings are a decision" isn't what's often proposed -- emotions as bodily, involuntarily reactions, feelings as (equally involuntarily) follow-up in the brain -- either. And given that there can be feelings without emotions, in the aforementioned definition, this, too, has issues. As far as I'm aware, there is no full consensus even in science.

    Anyway (also for that reason), there is no good reason to separate them in everyday talk, and even threads such as this, when it's clear what is meant. Conversely, it very much is relevant to be precise in terms of quantity, because that is where the actual difference is. "Emotions happen", yes -- but the scale matters! That's where all the information is. "Everyone experiences emotions/feelings" (or "Feelers also ...") is equal parts true and pointless, it yields no insight.
    The distinctions I gave are far from "useless"; perhaps they seem useless to you. They were, however, perfectly clear and valuable to anyone that understands them and can apply them. The distinction between emotions and feelings is provided by Jung himself, and expounded upon by MBTI at length. The criteria is judgment. If the emotions "felt" by a subject provide a basis upon which to make a conscious decision, and this is habitually the case, as opposed to their influence being unconscious to the subject and lacking conscious intention, then the subject is categorically a "feeler" type.

    Furthermore, the insights yielded by the revelation that "everyone experiences emotions/feelings" and making comparisons of the sort "feelers also" is revealed through the contrast being made. Again, these are useful because they clarify the distinction in people's minds so that they can better divide people into different categories and make accurate predictions. If people have misconceptions about how functions operate and what the differences between types actually entails, they will inaccurately judge people and draw false conclusions.

  3. #33

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
    I'm not even sure at this point where people coming into this forum are getting their information about the feeling function, such that it would convince them feelings are synonymous with emotions.

    Emotions happen, but feelings are a decision. How you feel about something is a determination you make based on either a subjective set of criteria in the case of introverted feeling, or an objective set of criteria in the case of extraverted feeling.

    Feelers also suppress and ignore their emotions whenever those emotions contradict their value systems.

    Let me repeat that.

    Feelers also suppress and ignore their emotions whenever those emotions contradict their value systems.

    They are no different from thinkers in this aspect. Simply, the only difference is what criteria are involved in making the decision to act on an emotion or not. If a thinker experiences some emotion, and it is perfectly in line with their criteria for when it is appropriate to act on it, they will. If a feeler experiences some emotion, and it is perfectly in line with their criteria for when it is appropriate to act on it, they will.
    Would you mind to expand on what criteria it is that's involved?

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  5. #34

    Quote Originally Posted by Eu_citzen View Post
    Would you mind to expand on what criteria it is that's involved?
    In the case of extraverted feeling, the criteria are social constructs and cultural norms. For example, being asked to evaluate a painting in an art gallery, you may find it distasteful and hate it (emotion), but the cultural expectation is to say something positive and encouraging, and you value that higher than your own emotion so you give that reply instead of the personal one. In the case of introverted feeling, the criteria are the opposite, and so the resulting example (the art gallery scenario) would be the precise opposite, with the person recoiling from and perhaps even being aggressive toward social expectations, choosing instead to give their personal opinion as clearly and forcefully as possible.

    It is important to note that it does not matter whether the decision to side with culturally normative values and group expectations is a matter of emotion or a matter of logic. Jung, and MBTI, makes no distinction here regarding that. It is beyond the scope of the theory and open to academic dispute.

    Let me make it clear (this doesn't necessarily apply to you, but it needs to be said) I did not come into this thread to engage in an open debate about the validity of MBTI and it's assumptions. I'm simply clarifying the terms used by the model for people who seem have been misinformed about them. For what it's worth. I have absolutely no interest in defending the assumptions of the MBTI system and will ignore any attempt to draw me into a semantic debate about factually correct information regarding the descriptions that MBTI has published and made clear. Again, I could care less if they are true or false in reality. My only concern is that everyone is on the same page first, and then they can do debate whatever they want.
    Last edited by Abraxas; 07-04-2018 at 09:12 AM.
    Eu_citzen thanked this post.

  6. #35

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
    In the case of extraverted feeling, the criteria are social constructs and cultural norms. For example, being asked to evaluate a painting in an art gallery, you may find it distasteful and hate it (emotion), but the cultural expectation is to say something positive and encouraging, and you value that higher than your own emotion so you give that reply instead of the personal one. In the case of introverted feeling, the criteria are the opposite, and so the resulting example (the art gallery scenario) would be the precise opposite, with the person recoiling from and perhaps even being aggressive toward social expectations, choosing instead to give their personal opinion as clearly and forcefully as possible.
    Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for.
    Abraxas thanked this post.

  7. #36

    I'm not one to advertise my feelings, but that in no way means I don't have them. I just tend to look at everyday life through the lens of "problem solving" first, push them aside for the moment, and then feel them later (if at all).

    Speaking from experience, I have to be pushed into a corner before I will consciously act on, or express my emotions. I am quite certain that I subconsciously act upon them on a regular basis. I'm the kind of person who doesn't panic easily. I generally keep a cool head when things are going wrong, and wind up deflating like a balloon when the adrenaline wears off.

    I tend to make my decisions on intuition, or thought, before I consider how I feel about them. Once again, I often don't consider how I feel about them until after the fact. Sometimes I have regrets, most times I don't.

    Emotions aren't confusing to me; I often think they are inconvenient. They can get in the way and cloud my judgment, cause me to feel like I'm going off course somehow. In some cases, it has turned out to be a good thing, others, not so much. Other factors come to mind: I'm male, and I have been socially conditioned to be as unemotional as possible, and I am a Enneagram type 5, so my motivating fear is being overwhelmed, and emotions tend to be overwhelming for me, so again, wherever possible, I try to box them up, push them aside, keep them in the basement. This would seem to dovetail with my NT functions as well, although, having reached middle age, I think my tertiary Fe does cause me to pause and consider how my actions might affect others, it still doesn't mean I like to wallow around in my own emotional pool.

    I've sort of allowed myself to ramble here, I hope it makes sense to others.

  8. #37

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    I can't confirm this, [...]
    But I can confirm this. Read Carl Jungs Psychological Types, Chapter X, page 385 (in edition Collective Works of C.G.Jung Vol. 6), verses (if you can call the numeric references in the book as verses).

    Quote verse 635.
    "In his personal relations he is taciturn or else throws himself on people who cannot understand him, and for him this is one more proof of the abysmal stupidity of man. If for once he is understood, he easily succumbs to the credulous overestimation of his prowess. Ambitious women have only to know how to take advantage of his cluelessness in practical matters to make an easy prey of him; or he may develop into a misanthropic bachelor with a childlike heart. Often he is gauche in his behaviour, painfully anxious to escape notice, or else remarkably unconcerned and childishly naļve. [...]"

    Quote verse 638
    "[...] The counterbalancing function of feeling, intuition and sensation are comparatively unconscious and inferior, and therefore have a primitive extraverted character that accounts for all the troublesome influences from outside to which the introverted thinker is prone. [...] They all serve as a defence against "magical" influences - and among them is a vague fear of the feminine sex."

  9. #38

    Quote Originally Posted by TB_Wisdom View Post
    ~snip
    Admittedly, the "ambitious women" line made me giggle. If that is a surefire way to attract them, perhaps I do have to the book after all. Anyway, I was of course talking about personal experience and observation. Does your experience, then, line up with Jung's theory?

    I'm quite inclined to raise my theory against his -- possibly it's also to be kept in mind that Jung was a psychiatrist, and mostly treating actually ill people.

    Edit: Unless you want to want to separate feeling and F-Feeling (and same for thinking) as well, that is, in which case we have no argument, because that's not what I was talking about (see below).


    @Abraxas : Except, that's not really what the thread was about, no? The only way types were mentioned in the OP at all was a generic "I've seen NTs ...", and functions weren't referenced at all. I still see no real point (I did not say useless) -- the discussion was about what you and I colloquially mean when we say "emotions" or "feelings" (which has only indirectly to do with T/F functions), and I'm pretty sure everyone understood it that way.
    Last edited by Northern Lights; 07-04-2018 at 12:46 PM.


     
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