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INTJ8w9โญโญโญโญโญ๐ŸŒ€๐Ÿ’œ๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ’™๐Ÿ’š๐Ÿค๐Ÿ’›๐Ÿงก๐Ÿงกโคโœช๐—ฆ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—น๐——๐—˜๐—™๐—˜๐—ก๐——๐—˜๐—ฅ๐—ฆ๐ŸŽ๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ•๐—โ™กโšแ’แ‘Œแ”•T แ—ชO YOแ‘Œแ–‡ แ—ทEแ”•T!โšก
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I choose to be optimistic and say it depends even if the chances are slim to non anymore...we can't give up we just have to try a lot harder...

to be honest I am scared soneone who doesn't take it seriously enough will get seriously hurt if this continues in order to save the planet, but thats just speculation.
That's because I believe there are some people who are willing to take down a few extremely destructive people in order to save the planet as a whole...thinking the goal justify the means.
Reycling, biking & electric cars just doesn't cut it anymore.
 

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The planet will survive for another 5 billion years, the question is if we and other living beings will.
We keep thinking the world is about us but, ahm, no.
 

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I think that life will survive, even if the change is quite quick. I mean an asteriod hit earth and here we are. So there must be a hidden resilence in life that humans are oblivious to. To quote Ian Malcolm, "life a... finds a way."
 
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Well, at this rate things are looking pretty dismal for potentially billions of people. But "at this rate" is where I draw hope. Because the rate of change can be altered with the development of new technologies. We just really really need to get on it.
 
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Three things.

(1) If the Earth had only 2 billion people instead of the coming 10 billion, there wouldn't be so many people to burn bad chemicals into the atmosphere. You want to stop sexual reproduction? 2-->2.1 creeps up on ya.

(2) It's not climate change, but rather people change. All those people produce lots of commerce. Many, especially those in power, love to increase commerce. Do you think they want to quit? Where do you think all that CO2 is coming from? Answer: commerce.

(3) Go for putting a damper on (1) and (2).

Turn 2 into 1.9. Take away those profits from the industrialists.
 

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Three things.

(1) If the Earth had only 2 billion people instead of the coming 10 billion, there wouldn't be so many people to burn bad chemicals into the atmosphere. You want to stop sexual reproduction? 2-->2.1 creeps up on ya.

(2) It's not climate change, but rather people change. All those people produce lots of commerce. Many, especially those in power, love to increase commerce. Do you think they want to quit? Where do you think all that CO2 is coming from? Answer: commerce.

(3) Go for putting a damper on (1) and (2).

Turn 2 into 1.9. Take away those profits from the industrialists.
This is interesting because our prime minister just encouraged people to reproduce more because we need a lot more health workers in the future because of the futuristic elderly wave.
 
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This is interesting because our prime minister just encouraged people to reproduce more because we need a lot more health workers in the future because of the futuristic elderly wave.
Was he (she?) thinking of the crest of the wave and not the trough?
 
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Was he (she?) thinking of the crest of the wave and not the trough?
People keep getting older and older but there are fewer young people to care for them because their health has not increased as fast as their age, so her solution was to grow more kids to solve the problem ๐Ÿ˜’๐Ÿ™„ I don't think that's any solution my self, but then again, I'm not a prime minister either. Thank God. Maybe the solution would be to donate more to science or something to improve health and wellbeing, idk. Or for the science to publish ALL research, not just the positive, so we could get some realitic results that are trustworthy
 

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Maybe the solution would be to donate more to science or something to improve health and wellbeing, idk. Or for the science to publish ALL research, not just the positive, so we could get some realitic results that are trustworthy
Thar ye go. That's a good idea. Let people know what is likely to happen if they don't act favoring science. Show the bad side as well as the good side instead of pussy footing around.
 

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People keep getting older and older but there are fewer young people to care for them because their health has not increased as fast as their age, so her solution was to grow more kids to solve the problem ๐Ÿ˜’๐Ÿ™„ I don't think that's any solution my self, but then again, I'm not a prime minister either. Thank God. Maybe the solution would be to donate more to science or something to improve health and wellbeing, idk. Or for the science to publish ALL research, not just the positive, so we could get some realitic results that are trustworthy
or immigration? there are lots of young people in the world at large. Countries like ours (mushroom shaped population pyramid/has lots of money) could perhaps offer health related educations for young people from countries with pyramidshaped pyramids, and hope some stay to work, but it also help as some will return and use it there. Often the politicians talk about work immigration in a way that seems so greedy and egoistic, that only well educated and skills in demand should get to come, so that countries with less money has to pay for educating people, and then they move to other countries to get higher salaries. It should be the other way around.

---------------------

For the topic at large, I am starting to feel much less hopeful, even if things here and there improves, but I think it takes more than technology, much more changes in behaviour, and not having all you want or can afford. But it seems people are slow to change, me too, I have known about global warming since schooldays, but I didn't get the scope of it, didn't look things up properly. I think the pandemic might have helped, even if there will likely be a backlash now that people get "free" again, but still, it is an experience in changing behaviour drastically on personal and societal level to fight a common danger.

The tipping points stuff like methane when siberia and the arctic melts, carbondioxide when fires burn forests etc, are worrying, and I don't know it they might mean it is too late already, but I think as we don't know we should make a proper attempt.

I also worry some about how much emission the changes cause. Like making lots of factories for electric batteries and solar cells and mine for the materials, like building new energy efficient houses. It might take 50-100 years before that pays off, so in the meantime it increases emissions, so perhaps we should not do those things so much, but just slow down and make do with what we have and use more layers and live in cold houses and not drive cars and live more people in each house and so on? Perhaps we should think more extreme, or... think that it isn't so extreme, the the larger scope of things, we used to live in caves and piles of mud and tents. There is likely lots we don't really need, and there is lots we already have and can keep and tend to and mend if needed and share with each other. If population isn't growing, and we don't throw or bread things so much, perhaps we could mostly make do with what we have, except food.
 

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or immigration? there are lots of young people in the world at large. Countries like ours (mushroom shaped population pyramid/has lots of money) could perhaps offer health related educations for young people from countries with pyramidshaped pyramids, and hope some stay to work, but it also help as some will return and use it there. Often the politicians talk about work immigration in a way that seems so greedy and egoistic, that only well educated and skills in demand should get to come, so that countries with less money has to pay for educating people, and then they move to other countries to get higher salaries. It should be the other way around.

---------------------

For the topic at large, I am starting to feel much less hopeful, even if things here and there improves, but I think it takes more than technology, much more changes in behaviour, and not having all you want or can afford. But it seems people are slow to change, me too, I have known about global warming since schooldays, but I didn't get the scope of it, didn't look things up properly. I think the pandemic might have helped, even if there will likely be a backlash now that people get "free" again, but still, it is an experience in changing behaviour drastically on personal and societal level to fight a common danger.

The tipping points stuff like methane when siberia and the arctic melts, carbondioxide when fires burn forests etc, are worrying, and I don't know it they might mean it is too late already, but I think as we don't know we should make a proper attempt.

I also worry some about how much emission the changes cause. Like making lots of factories for electric batteries and solar cells and mine for the materials, like building new energy efficient houses. It might take 50-100 years before that pays off, so in the meantime it increases emissions, so perhaps we should not do those things so much, but just slow down and make do with what we have and use more layers and live in cold houses and not drive cars and live more people in each house and so on? Perhaps we should think more extreme, or... think that it isn't so extreme, the the larger scope of things, we used to live in caves and piles of mud and tents. There is likely lots we don't really need, and there is lots we already have and can keep and tend to and mend if needed and share with each other. If population isn't growing, and we don't throw or bread things so much, perhaps we could mostly make do with what we have, except food.
I agree. And there is also another alternative; sending money directly to the poor country to help them where they are where our money is more worth or valuable then here so they get more back from it (unless the foreigners are allready here and want to stay here, etc.) so that they don't have to leave their own country just to come and take care of us and let the "unemployed" people put on wellfare have jobs like other people do instead of using social dumping (hiring people from abroad just because they are so cheap -they have to in order to survive- for too low pay, much less then what is legal. Capitamism. Reminds me of the slavery ๐Ÿคจ) and quit using so much robotics instead of manual labour in the work force to make it cheaper. For every human should have a right to work in my oppinion, not just for the sake of money but for the sake of finding meaningfull things to do, for dignity and selfesteem, for social needs, etc. But what do I know ๐Ÿคท๐Ÿฝโ€โ™€๏ธ
I can't see that capitalism creates jobs, just more unequality...
 

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Also some of the most poor and vulnarable people might be stuck in their own country, prevented from helping their families from there when they need help even more then the elderly in the western world...๐Ÿ˜Ÿ but just because they happen to be born on the wrong side of the border, they don't get sufficiant help...
 

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I think with time we would find solutions and the planet would be saved. Having respectable countries, industries pollution control, use of electric cars, low-carbon energy and renewable sources for energy
 

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um, guess i'll reply. I'm a professional geologist by trade, which offers me no other perspective than big picture. I'm not going to stop anybody from their worry, bc you'll be dead long before whatever you're worried about. As far as the purpose of such worry, what's the point? Humans complete against each other constantly, by ego or acquisition, as religion says... you can't take it with you. But, if you want to worry about the world you live within, who am I to stop you. The dino's pbly thought it would be like this forever... then Chicxulub. (frags of this were found in the Rockies). We don't have bolide worries these days, in it's place we now judgmentally worry if everyone else is behaving good. Allow me to spoil the future, it doesn't matter, people will adjust as needed. As it stands there is about 300 years of petro left, of varying cost. Ghawar type sweet will end first, followed by heavy sour (Venezuala, Canada, Russia), more refining. Again the economics will dictate.

That fact remains, this planet is going to exist in spite of you. It doesn't need homo sapiens. Humanity is greedy, no doubt, it knows no restraint. But there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously. You'll be so dead that your grave is lost to time when that occurs. It won't even scratch geologic time.

You should be thankful that you existed during the 'electric age' instead of the Medieval age. There's nothing you can do, unless you wish to live in the arcane. For all intents, this is peak humanity.

A day later, I dislike that I sound so dismissive here. It's certainly not because I don't value other's feelings, passions, causes. Almost all of these are well intended and aimed toward living better, an admirable human trait to begin with. Nor do I promote waste, inefficiency. If I come across as blatanly nihilistic, it's also bc ... not only does the birthrate increase constantly, (maybe not so much in the western world).... but mainly because longevity of life itself is increasing exponentially. All of the health consciousness we engage upon today is another life that keeps living (and consuming) tomorrow. Peak Humanity, pressing toward the theoretical limits of DNA aging itself. 90 is the new 80. And you can't tell someone to go die already, we need to conserve the resources. This is really beyond anyone's control, so instead of worrying about (predicting) society 6 or 7 generations from now just live well in the here and now, be efficient, don't waste. Nobody will remember any sacrifice you made, I doubt there would even be the capacity to care, properly.
 

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INTJ8w9โญโญโญโญโญ๐ŸŒ€๐Ÿ’œ๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ’™๐Ÿ’š๐Ÿค๐Ÿ’›๐Ÿงก๐Ÿงกโคโœช๐—ฆ๐—ผ๐˜‚๐—น๐——๐—˜๐—™๐—˜๐—ก๐——๐—˜๐—ฅ๐—ฆ๐ŸŽ๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ•๐—โ™กโšแ’แ‘Œแ”•T แ—ชO YOแ‘Œแ–‡ แ—ทEแ”•T!โšก
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
um, guess i'll reply. I'm a professional geologist by trade, which offers me no other perspective than big picture. I'm not going to stop anybody from their worry, bc you'll be dead long before whatever you're worried about. As far as the purpose of such worry, what's the point? Humans complete against each other constantly, by ego or acquisition, as religion says... you can't take it with you. But, if you want to worry about the world you live within, who am I to stop you. The dino's pbly thought it would be like this forever... then Chicxulub. (frags of this were found in the Rockies). We don't have bolide worries these days, in it's place we now judgmentally worry if everyone else is behaving good. Allow me to spoil the future, it doesn't matter, people will adjust as needed. As it stands there is about 300 years of petro left, of varying cost. Ghawar type sweet will end first, followed by heavy sour (Venezuala, Canada, Russia), more refining. Again the economics will dictate.

That fact remains, this planet is going to exist in spite of you. It doesn't need homo sapiens. Humanity is greedy, no doubt, it knows no restraint. But there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously. You'll be so dead that your grave is lost to time when that occurs. It won't even scratch geologic time.

You should be thankful that you existed during the 'electric age' instead of the Medieval age. There's nothing you can do, unless you wish to live in the arcane. For all intents, this is peak humanity.

A day later, I dislike that I sound so dismissive here. It's certainly not because I don't value other's feelings, passions, causes. Almost all of these are well intended and aimed toward living better, an admirable human trait to begin with. Nor do I promote waste, inefficiency. If I come across as blatanly nihilistic, it's also bc ... not only does the birthrate increase constantly, (maybe not so much in the western world).... but mainly because longevity of life itself is increasing exponentially. All of the health consciousness we engage upon today is another life that keeps living (and consuming) tomorrow. Peak Humanity, pressing toward the theoretical limits of DNA aging itself. 90 is the new 80. And you can't tell someone to go die already, we need to conserve the resources. This is really beyond anyone's control, so instead of worrying about (predicting) society 6 or 7 generations from now just live well in the here and now, be efficient, don't waste. Nobody will remember any sacrifice you made, I doubt there would even be the capacity to care, properly.
Yeah, I agree, there's no need to worry about it right now......although the goal of preventing global warming is for the overall wellbeing of our future children and people......the earth's climate is in a good state right now, it's just that we need to improve the systems bit by bit, for future generations, so that their wellbeing is not jeopardised by the goal of preventing global warming......It's not as if we want to be remembered long after we stop existing......:)
 

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I grew up watching captain planet, and learned all about taking care of the environment etc. I was quite a fervent eco-guy. I'm highly "environmental" - I recycle as much as I can and use transport as little as I can (it's expensive anyway) I don't travel for fun. I energy save etc etc.

I heard about Sydney being underwater by 2000. I was scared and worried for years. Then 2000 came around, and my favourite beach was still there. And still is after being scared to death for over 30 years.

Because of this discrepancy between prediction and outcome, I started investigating (going deep down the rabbit hole). I found that there's been a long history of predictions of when environmental catastrophe will occur.
Just look at these records of newspaper clippings since 1967.
(50 years of failed eco-pocalyptic predictions)

I'm not suggesting that human activity has no effect on the environment. It clearly does. But I am questioning what effect, how much, over how much time. Which is actually the heart of the debate. Though all climatologists agree that that human activity affects the environment, but they disagree on severity.

SIDE A. (A for Alarmists) Humans have caused a catastrophic climate change environmental disaster that will kill us all unless we act. Humans caused it and only humans can reverse it. (Naturally, a very charged and emotional side.)
SIDE B. Humans have affected the climate and the environment, but it's not catastrophic. The effect that humans have on climate change is minuscule. (They appear calm and rational, but are they right?)

The links below present SIDE B. I've looked at a lot of SIDE A and have been bombarded non stop by it for the past 30-40 years, from climatologists and lay-people. So I'm interested in what SIDE B have to say, in particular, the Climatologists, Scientists with a Doctorates who were former IPCC members and environmental activists.

The REASONS why I found it worth looking and not dismissing as "crazy fringe conspiracy theorists" is because of a few valid questions:
1. Before the industrial age, there is in fact accounts of climate change e.g. the Thames being completely frozen. - e.g. The dinosaurs' Ice Age - So if carbon emissions didn't cause these climate changing events, what did? And how much can human activity affect the climate?
2. Why are climate disaster predictions always 10-30 years into the future? Why have they always been wrong for 50 years?
3. Why are past failed predictions for climate and other ecological disasters always forgotten and never held to account? And why do people keep believing these predictions with 100% certainty?
4. Why does the news always report the ice sheets and glaciers breaking but never when it forms and solidifies?
5. Why are there former IPCC Climatologists at all that are on SIDE-B?
6. If government, politics, mass media benefit from Climate alarmism, how much of the truth do they affect?

Even as someone who is leaning towards SIDE-B, I don't trash the environment. I do about as much as anyone on SIDE-A. I'm even conscious that the things I buy is ethical and doesn't support slavery somewhere in the supply chain. (Almost impossible to get it 100% right - would put a bullet in every one of those muthaf* if I could. But aware that the pen is mightier than the gun and creating reforms in law has a much longer lasting effect. But alas, I'm not the lawyer/poltical type.)

The videos and arguments below are quite compelling and worth looking into.
-----
Dr Richard Lindzen (Climatologist, Former IPCC)

Dr. Madhav Khandekar, (Climatologist, Former IPCC)

Dr. Willie Soon (Astrophysicist & Climatologist)

Dr Patrick Moore (Ecologist, Founding member of Greenpeace, Eco-Activist)
Patrick Moore
Dr. Patrick Moore: 12 Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom

Debate between 2 Climatologists on climate change and others (Dr Richard Lindzen vs Prof. Myles Allen)
Climate change: Fact or fiction? | Head to Head

Dr. Willie Soon and Elliott D. Bloom (Physicists)
Global Warming: Fact or Fiction? Featuring Physicists Willie Soon and Elliott D. Bloom

Michael Shellenberger (Former Climate Activist)
Reformed climate activist condemns โ€˜terrorising school childrenโ€™ with false science

Other ecological predictions that never came true
 
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