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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #1
How confrontational are you? After a confrontation do you feel better, or do you stay mad? What type of confrontations do you tend to have? What inspires you to want to confront someone? Are there situations in which you are angry, upset, bitter, resentful.. but won't confront someone? If so, what are they?
 

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Note I'm not a core 1 and I'm not even 100% sure of my gut fix. This might say more about my instinct stacking moreso than my 1-ness, lol.

How confrontational are you?
Not very. It takes a lot to actually set me off, and I'm pretty mellow/laidback/conflict avoidant. I think this is why I mistyped as 9, when I hadn't a clue what enneagram was on about. But I don't relate to indifference (although I secretly wish I did). I get resentful and critical—sometimes, another person's stupidity can really dominate my conscious... especially if it's a problem they can fix and they're just whining.

After a confrontation do you feel better, or do you stay mad?
No, I do not typically feel better, but airing things does cool me off. It depends, actually. I tend to feel like shit if I blow up on a family member but... I admit I get a sort of sadistic joy when I call out a stranger on their shit and make them feel guilty (typically on the internet and only if I feel they have it coming).

I could not find the scene, but there's this moment in Lawrence of Arabia where Lawrence talks about the first person he killed in the war and he hesitantly admits: "I think I... liked it."

Sidenote: If I had to guess, he's probably a 3w4 1w2 ??? sx/so (half-assed the instincts).
 

What type of confrontations do you tend to have? What inspires you to want to confront someone?
Confrontations center around the following:

1. Stupidity, stupidity, stupidity :laughing:. Emotional, practical or intellectual incompetence. Especially if it's accompanied by whining or puts me/the accused in danger. Low intra-personal intelligence. Callousness (I'm no fucking Politeness Police, but extremely ignorant blanket statements set me off)
2. Micromanagers, control-freaks and back-seat drivers: Shut up and stop telling me how to do every single little thing, because I'm not going to listen anyway.
3. People who tell me what I'm thinking: What are you, a fucking mind-reader?

Are there situations in which you are angry, upset, bitter, resentful.. but won't confront someone? If so, what are they?
I bottle it up most the time. Not sure if that's a healthy practice, but my "code/MO" tends to avoid conflict whenever possible because there's always far-reaching consequences to consider. I do not burn bridges with reckless abandon. I choose my battles very carefully, but the anger just seethes beneath the surface, often times. It's not really repressed into indifference (which is why I don't think I'm a 9)... it's more like I'm keeping a tight reign on that anger.

Words are my weapons, not my fists. This is why I'm especially careful around friends/family because I know their insecurities and pressure points—I've said some pretty awful stuff to family members—granted, they were putting themselves and myself in direct, physical danger.

People need to learn to channel their emotions in healthy ways, not (literally) self-destructive ways.

 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #3
2. Micromanagers, control-freaks and back-seat drivers: Shut up and stop telling me how to do every single little thing, because I'm not going to listen anyway.
Bahahaha. I've never been in a car accident but my mom & brother who have been in multiple accidents both love to criticize my driving. :rolleyes:

3. People who tell me what I'm thinking: What are you, a fucking mind-reader?
:laughing:
Seriously!!! It is hilarious when other people tell me what my intentions were. Unless I'm in a really bad mood I'd respond like, "Oh, that's interesting.. I had no idea I was so brilliant to come up with this elaborate deceptive scheme. Thanks for the credit!"
 

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Yeah... what Bjork said about "Army of Me":

"I’m a polar bear and I’m with five hundred polar bears, just tramping over a city. The lyric is about people who feel sorry for themselves all the time and don’t get their shit together. You come to a point with people like that where you’ve done everything you can do for them, and the only thing that’s going to sort them out is themselves. It’s time to get things done. I identify with polar bears. They’re very cuddly and cute and quite calm, but if they meet you they can be very strong."
 

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How confrontational are you?


Not very. I prefer to ignore "problems" and let them sort themselves out. Only if the problem backs me into a corner/winds me up to the breaking point will I confront.

After a confrontation do you feel better, or do you stay mad?
I feel restless. Rarely does the conflict allow me to get out all of the negativity that I've bottled up. I would prefer not to be mad, so after I explode/confront, I usually withdraw and take my mind off things with random acts of violence upon my property.

What type of confrontations do you tend to have? What inspires you to want to confront someone? Are there situations in which you are angry, upset, bitter, resentful.. but won't confront someone? If so, what are they?
The most likely scenario at any given moment is this:

- person x is doing something. they shouldn't be doing it
- i take action to isolate the effects of what person x is doing so they can continue doing it without affecting the larger scheme
- person x takes offense to what i am doing
- i flip out because they're the problem

People that try to back me into a corner make me confront, though I prefer the term lash out.

I won't confront someone if it will affect the dynamics of the groups we are in.
 
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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #6
Not very. I prefer to ignore "problems" and let them sort themselves out. Only if the problem backs me into a corner/winds me up to the breaking point will I confront.


I feel restless. Rarely does the conflict allow me to get out all of the negativity that I've bottled up. I would prefer not to be mad, so after I explode/confront, I usually withdraw and take my mind off things with random acts of violence upon my property.
Hm, this is interesting. I confront so fast that it's hardly a confrontation. What I mean is, I don't build up resentment, if it's someone I care about.. I get right to it. If it's someone I don't care about, it just rolls off and gets ignored, unless they're in my way and I need to deal with them. I only have major big confrontations when resentment builds up and there are very few reasons why I would allow this to happen. I attributed the fast-paced confrontation style to my 7 wing. 8w9s seem to let it build to a boiling point and then let it all out at once which can be scary. I'm an 8 but I'm really not that scary (although some claim otherwise.. eep) .. I just handle it as it comes.

I am actually surprised to hear this from a 7; maybe 7w8 is what I'm used to; being that my father is a 7w8 and his fuse is MUCH shorter than mine. He confronts and blows over before you even know what happened. I guess I could see that 7w6 is less confrontational. Also my dad is 8 fixed while you are apparently 1 fixed. Maybe that is part of it too?

Here is the question: Why do you hold back? Why not deal with it right away? What stops you?
 

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:laughing:
Seriously!!! It is hilarious when other people tell me what my intentions were. Unless I'm in a really bad mood I'd respond like, "Oh, that's interesting.. I had no idea I was so brilliant to come up with this elaborate deceptive scheme. Thanks for the credit!"
Sassy
 

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Hm, this is interesting. I confront so fast that it's hardly a confrontation. What I mean is, I don't build up resentment, if it's someone I care about.. I get right to it. If it's someone I don't care about, it just rolls off and gets ignored, unless they're in my way and I need to deal with them. I only have major big confrontations when resentment builds up and there are very few reasons why I would allow this to happen. I attributed the fast-paced confrontation style to my 7 wing. 8w9s seem to let it build to a boiling point and then let it all out at once which can be scary. I'm an 8 but I'm really not that scary (although some claim otherwise.. eep) .. I just handle it as it comes.

I am actually surprised to hear this from a 7; maybe 7w8 is what I'm used to; being that my father is a 7w8 and his fuse is MUCH shorter than mine. He confronts and blows over before you even know what happened. I guess I could see that 7w6 is less confrontational. Also my dad is 8 fixed while you are apparently 1 fixed. Maybe that is part of it too?

Here is the question: Why do you hold back? Why not deal with it right away? What stops you?
7w6 are generally more passive than 7w8's. we're much more people-pleasers.

my 1 fix is a 1w9, so i keep most of my anger and frustration inside and try to ignore it. it drives me insane when people don't comply with how i want social situations to unfold, but because i'm a core 7 so/sx the idea of injecting those personal, negative thoughts and feelings into the social situation purely for my own purposes seems... selfish.

i would much rather try to bypass the problem and let it burn itself out. it's more efficient (in my mind) that way. it's only when my efforts to bypass are interrupted or impeded that the rage comes out.
 
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I am actually surprised to hear this from a 7; maybe 7w8 is what I'm used to; being that my father is a 7w8 and his fuse is MUCH shorter than mine. He confronts and blows over before you even know what happened. I guess I could see that 7w6 is less confrontational. Also my dad is 8 fixed while you are apparently 1 fixed. Maybe that is part of it too?
Ha, yeah, I think it's a wing difference. Half the time people think I'm outraged and I'm not even really mad, but just riled up, and likely enjoying having usurped the stage to make a statement. There's a buzz in just going to town on something or someone - the classic INTJ rant.

If it's something directed at me and it's not serious I'll dwell on it for a bit before deciding to just forget about it and move on. If it is serious, then I find out what's going on so there are no secrets. If the person squibbles off, it gets ignored and there's a default boundary; if they don't, we set the boundary right away.



As far as 1's go, I have noticed that 1's (particularly 1w2) tend to chastise and try and teach. I work with a 1w2 who is constantly nitpicking a 9w8 - it's constant "see, you have to learn this, and that - ask questions before you do it yourself, you must learn to ______....."

It's still confronting, but more in a directive, didactic way. The have every bit as much command as an 8.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ha, yeah, I think it's a wing difference. Half the time people think I'm outraged and I'm not even really mad, but just riled up, and likely enjoying having usurped the stage to make a statement. There's a buzz in just going to town on something or someone - the classic INTJ rant.

If it's something directed at me and it's not serious I'll dwell on it for a bit before deciding to just forget about it and move on. If it is serious, then I find out what's going on so there are no secrets. If the person squibbles off, it gets ignored and there's a default boundary; if they don't, we set the boundary right away.



As far as 1's go, I have noticed that 1's (particularly 1w2) tend to chastise and try and teach. I work with a 1w2 who is constantly nitpicking a 9w8 - it's constant "see, you have to learn this, and that - ask questions before you do it yourself, you must learn to ______....."

It's still confronting, but more in a directive, didactic way. The have every bit as much command as an 8.
If you look at it a certain way, my type 1 mother is much more confrontational than I am, simply due to the mass of confrontations within a given time frame. I pick my battles, whereas she has to correct everything that's wrong. And if she knows she's right, there's no winning an argument against her; except, she's not there to win, she's there to be right and do what's right and try to make sure YOU do it right unless you're unmovable in which case she will HAVE to do it right FOR you.
 

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How confrontational are you?
I'm not averse to conflict, but I do try to avoid it. Perhaps the strongest indicator that I'm ESTJ is that my thinking is very pragmatic. There are methods that work and then there are those that don't. As far as long-term consequences are concerned, conflict may not be the best idea. I might eventually require cooperation of people I confront today. However, sometimes head-on conflict is the best, and occasionally - the only solution. When that's the case I don't back away. But, in most cases, it makes more sense to sit down and talk about it.

After a confrontation do you feel better, or do you stay mad?
Depends. If it achieves the desirable result I'm content with that. If not I'm really irritated. First, the problem remains unsolved. Second, I've wasted time and energy in vain. Third, conflict for me is often a last resort measure. Therefore, I'll need to take a vary different approach to the issue at hand - one that I hadn't thought about before.

What type of confrontations do you tend to have? What inspires you to want to confront someone?
My confrontations are centered around undesirable interference with my own life or those of my friends and family. Pretty much anyone showing incompetence in work issues that concern me. If you can't do it then let me take over and stay out of the way. And if I say you can't do it then you most certainly can't.

Bitching of any kind. False accusations. Insults. Baseless demands and expectations. Desire to be in charge when one is obviously incompetent. Attempts to force others into submission. That kind of stuff, I don't take well. Those things have a real chance to provoke open rage. You don't want to be too close should that ever happen.

Also, meddling with what I see as my personal affairs. There are things I'll want everyone not to do, even if they may seem helpful to me. I'm very explicit about them, so anyone who does them knows very well that I'll be upset. Sure enough, not everyone is stopped by that.

Are there situations in which you are angry, upset, bitter, resentful.. but won't confront someone? If so, what are they?
Conflict, for me, is a way to achieve something that either can't be achieved otherwise, or the amount of effort will be not worth it. If I see a conflict as leading to no considerable results I'll just skip it. I have better things to do. An example would be people telling me what I think. Those who do that are, from my experience, dumb like a brick. Such behavior may irritate me, but what's the point of talking to a TV? It's easier to act as though this person isn't even here and attend to more pressing matters. If they're not down with being outright ignored - too bad, I don't give a rat's ass. Don't talk to me until you've grown a working brain.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
My confrontations are centered around undesirable interference with my own life or those of my friends and family.
Yeah, for me, that's the line in the sand. I can take criticism, I can take a fight or a confrontation. Words won't harm me. I will argue back, defend myself, perhaps get in a few cutting remarks, or perhaps stonewall and ignore you, depending on my mood. But fuck with my world - my family, my work, my friends - you're cut off. It usually involves one warning (if I care about you enough not to cut you off outright) and then at the second offense you know what you did; so being in my life is a bad idea for both of us.

Also, meddling with what I see as my personal affairs. There are things I'll want everyone not to do, even if they may seem helpful to me. I'm very explicit about them, so anyone who does them knows very well that I'll be upset. Sure enough, not everyone is stopped by that.
Yeah, same. See above. ;P

Conflict, for me, is a way to achieve something that either can't be achieved otherwise
This is where we differ. I don't think of it as achievement or in terms of an outcome. Sometimes I do, but usually I just see it as "riding the natural current." If I feel the need to confront something, then it is worth confronting. It is only through direct discussion that the truth will come to light and true communication can be achieved, even if we still disagree in the end.
 

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This is where we differ. I don't think of it as achievement or in terms of an outcome. Sometimes I do, but usually I just see it as "riding the natural current." If I feel the need to confront something, then it is worth confronting. It is only through direct discussion that the truth will come to light and true communication can be achieved, even if we still disagree in the end.
I don't see any form of discussion as a confrontation at all. As long as it's in that stage it simply doesn't faze me. Must be my 5 fix. A conflict, to me, means doing things the hard way. It's about dominating the situation, imposing my will on others, having my way despite the resistance. This needn't be brutal per se; it may involve things like forcing someone to accept the facts, use logic and give up emotion-based prejudice. This is, at times, much less enjoyable than being made to act in accordance to my will but often much more needed. But the key factor is that I'm taking the person where they don't want to go - where they'd not go unless I press them to do so. Anything short of that doesn't fit my definition of a conflict.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I don't see any form of discussion as a confrontation at all. As long as it's in that stage it simply doesn't faze me. Must be my 5 fix. A conflict, to me, means doing things the hard way. It's about dominating the situation, imposing my will on others, having my way despite the resistance. This needn't be brutal per se; it may involve things like forcing someone to accept the facts, use logic and give up emotion-based prejudice. This is, at times, much less enjoyable than being made to act in accordance to my will but often much more needed. But the key factor is that I'm taking the person where they don't want to go - where they'd not go unless I press them to do so. Anything short of that doesn't fit my definition of a conflict.
Ah I see. I would view any conflict of interests or disagreement as a conflict or a confrontation. There are people who are afraid of even that, so it must be taken into account. Someone like you or me, who sees that as a "discussion," might be seen as 'confrontational' in someone else's eyes. I understand what you mean by the difference between imposing your will on someone and confronting them on more 'equal' terms, but I think we were using different vocabulary.

Communication is all about achieving balance between your own will and other peoples' will. There will always be power struggles and confrontations of various size and nature to establish boundaries, communication, dominance, submission. The smallest confrontation, ie, "hey, could you hang the curtains the other way, please?" Is still a conversation of dominance and submission - someone's will is being enacted, and the other is submitting to accommodate their will. At what point it becomes "conflict" is subjective I guess. You're saying it's not conflict unless the person says, "No, I will not hang the curtains that way" and after arguing back and forth, you find it necessary to force them to do so, or forcibly remove them from beside the windowsill?
 

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Communication is all about achieving balance between your own will and other peoples' will. There will always be power struggles and confrontations of various size and nature to establish boundaries, communication, dominance, submission. The smallest confrontation, ie, "hey, could you hang the curtains the other way, please?" Is still a conversation of dominance and submission - someone's will is being enacted, and the other is submitting to accommodate their will. At what point it becomes "conflict" is subjective I guess. You're saying it's not conflict unless the person says, "No, I will not hang the curtains that way" and after arguing back and forth, you find it necessary to force them to do so, or forcibly remove them from beside the windowsill?
As far as I'm concerned, two conditions must be satisfied in order to call a situation a conflict. First, the opposing party must fail to listen to reason. As long as they're being rational it's a cooperation attempt the way I see it. Second, the issue must be such that a forceful approach would be justified by the goals I'll achieve. If it's not worth it then it just isn't, I'll ignore it. I'll only fight if I really need to get a certain result. Oftentimes, I'll not care either way.

Your curtain example is pretty close, but I don't ever argue about subjective preferences. It's every individual's personal busyness. 'Sides, it's easier to try hanging the curtains both ways and see which looks nicer. But if the other party's actions will damage the curtains and they refuse to admit that then I will, indeed, remove them from the windowsill. If a person is incompetent it's easier for me to do things myself.
 

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I don't avoid confrontations anymore. I've gotten old enough to learn how to handle other adults appropriately and leave emotion out of problems. I would rather confront problems as they start than leave them to fester, and I do my best to remain entirely objective. I've had to deal with a shitload of confronting this past year. I feel like a pro now; however I choose my battles wisely and make certain I am over-prepared. Lucky for me, I understand people's motives very well and with that I can predict an outcome with fairly good accuracy. I know how to play my cards right. Still, it doesn't mean I like to it ... I do it because I am seeking a resolve.

I have earned a lot of trust in other people by the way I handled problems, often they will ask me to assist them in mediating a conversation or confronting another individual. I'll do it as I don't care to look like the bad guy if the reason is right and in line with my ethics.
 
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When it comes to political and social issues, I'm always confrontational. I don't care who it's against, and I don't care how they react to it (though there are some exceptions I suppose). But when it comes to confronting people after they've offended me personally, I tend to let it go. I tend to be more relaxed and lenient. However, a couple of nights ago I had a parent threaten me with a butcher knife. Well first they tried to crush me with a table, before telling me to pack my things and leave (because they didn't like something that I said), and I told them that I wasn't going anywhere. So they picked up a broom and tried to hit me with it, and told me to get out. I repeated that I wasn't going anywhere. No one was going to kick me out into homelessness without a fight.

So then my parent threatened me with a knife, and told me, once again, to get out. When I didn't budge, this person ran upstairs and started throwing my belongings down the stairs, and onto the floor. I figured that since I was either about to be stabbed to death, or thrown out, that I mind as well get a "couple" of things off my chest. I normally don't waste time defending myself, but I couldn't resist. I told my parent that for several months, their behavior had made me want to get a knife and carve out my own throat. I told them that this was the reason that I did not fear them threatening to stab me now: Because I had been wanting to take a blade to my veins for more than half of the year.

For once, I didn't hold back because I was worried about the other person's feelings. For once I let it be known how much "I" was hurting, rather than just focusing on the other person's pain, and sense of comfort. For once I both commanded and demanded that my faux liege-Lord (aka. my authoritarian parent), shut their fucking mouth and listen to what I have to say. I told this person that they were a passive aggressive monster that loved to make everyone else feel shitty, simply because THEY felt like shit themselves. I told this person that the only reason we got to this point of potential murder, was because they loved to start shit, and provoke their children to anger, and then punish their children for reacting negatively to emotional abuse.

I unloaded my contempt, and bared the darkest parts of my soul. And my parent was finally able to see that I hated them. That I loathed being in their very presence. This... corruption in my heart had been festering for quite some time. And finally allowing myself to confront this person openly and bluntly, allowed me to draw out the poison. The tension was so palpable that even my adult ESTJ brother couldn't help but cry. Normally I wouldn't have confronted my parent for their impudence, because they use my lack of ability to acquire my own shelter, as a way to disenfranchise me. They routinely treat me like shit, and then threaten to kick me out when I dare to stand up for myself. But as SOON as the threat of having somewhere to stay no longer mattered, the chains of control melted away, and my parent's power was undone.

I've never felt better in my life than I do right now. I've finally been able to stand up for myself without any external, or internal factors inhibiting my wrath. I drained the sickness from my mind, and now I feel light. I feel happy. I smile the smile of victory everyday. I didn't get kicked out, my parent realized that they were being a jackass, and most importantly, everyone in my household was introduced to a new "me". They thought I was weak, but I looked at an abusive parent square dead in their eyes, their knife brandishing all around me, and I told them that I would not be moved. Even though I was dying on the inside, I was simultaneously being reborn on the outside. Confrontation is good when it comes from an honest and vulnerable place, and I look forward to confronting people more often in the future.

I don't even know if I answered the OP's question. I just needed to get this off my chest. A bit of Perc therapy if you will.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
When it comes to political and social issues, I'm always confrontational. I don't care who it's against, and I don't care how they react to it (though there are some exceptions I suppose). But when it comes to confronting people after they've offended me personally, I tend to let it go. I tend to be more relaxed and lenient.
That's very noble. Are you a social type?

I was just explaining to a friend yesterday - that with my own 'enemies' or betrayers, I don't need to get revenge. "You stay out of my way, I stay out of yours" and being cordial if we run into each other is just fine. However if someone hurts my friends or a child or bullies someone weaker, no holds barred. As a kid I hardly ever got in fights or confrontations except to defend disabled or psychologically ill or socially impaired children from bullies. I would have rather made a target of myself than let them be picked on. Kids picked on me and tortured me anyway so I had nothing to lose. But to this day I stand up to anyone I see as a bully to someone else, but when someone offends me, I'm more willing to let it go than most people. Unless it's an SO. ;P

I don't even know if I answered the OP's question. I just needed to get this off my chest. A bit of Perc therapy if you will.
I loved what you wrote. I'm not picky about my threads. The more venting, soul-searching, or bonding that my threads dig up, the happier is the Animal. That's what this site is for. Feel free to vent here any time you like. Congrats for standing up to your family. It takes tremendous courage and strength to do so. It takes a lot more courage to stand up to someone when there is something to lose - a friendship, family bond, etc; when you CARE about them... than it does when they feel expendable.
 

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That's very noble. Are you a social type?
I'm so/sx. Is that what you were referring to? Personality theory tends to confuse me lol.

I was just explaining to a friend yesterday - that with my own 'enemies' or betrayers, I don't need to get revenge. "You stay out of my way, I stay out of yours" and being cordial if we run into each other is just fine. However if someone hurts my friends or a child or bullies someone weaker, no holds barred. As a kid I hardly ever got in fights or confrontations except to defend disabled or psychologically ill or socially impaired children from bullies. I would have rather made a target of myself than let them be picked on. Kids picked on me and tortured me anyway so I had nothing to lose. But to this day I stand up to anyone I see as a bully to someone else, but when someone offends me, I'm more willing to let it go than most people. Unless it's an SO. ;P
It's freaky just how similar I am to you in this way. Though I'm personally working on trying to stand up for myself more. I feel like I'm healthier when I'm able to settle issues swiftly, and get my true feelings out. I tend to get picked on a lot in the adult world. It's probably because I can be quiet, and I have a very gentle nature in general. I've also been surrounded by insecure bullies in every job that I've ever had. So instead of feeling worthless myself, I'm trying to learn how to be more assertive in helping bullies to understand why I think they're the scum that they are lol.
 
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I must say, my issues with confrontation are much more easily explained by my embarrassing level of self-esteem than by my enneagram type. I undoubtedly have an hard time defending myself and the perpetual feeling of guilt for having personal needs makes it tough to support myself during a discussion. I like to believe I know how to argue and be fairly persuasive, but truth is that I manage to do this only if my emotional involvement is limited to zero, as otherwise anger pops up and destroys all my efforts to bring the conversation to a valuable conclusion. The problem is that I’m constantly confronting my inner judge, so when someone else gets in the way, I instantly become the minority voice in the triangle.

However, if I do find it necessary to jump into an argument (usually when I foresee long-term problems), I try my very best NOT to let it become an argument: the conversation needs to go as smoothly as possible, no negative feelings flooding in. I may even sacrifice a little bit of my sense of pride just to avoid that the circumstances become favourable for anger.

So yeah, even though I’m one of the big promoters of “just go and talk to him/her”, I’m naturally drawn towards the “let’s hope he/she gets it without my help”. Which is stupid and unproductive, but most of the times I really can’t help it.
 
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