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Discussion Starter #1
In a totally socially liberal society that is.

They are:

1) that most men (50-80%) are absolutely physically and sexually unattractive to women. Women would rather chop wood, or clean a public toilet, than have sex with most men. Their biology is repelled, even repulsed by most men physically

2) men do not find the vast majority (much more than 80%) of women interesting. So if a woman is looking for a 'real life partner who I'm very physically attracted to', most are going to be disappointed.
The men who would pretend to be interested in your personality are just unattractive men who are desperate for sex.
The very attractive (top 5-20%) of men who can get a new girl every week, don't need need to pretend they find you interesting. They will sleep with you and move on, not wanting to be tied down. If you are looking to tie down a very physically attractive men, unless you are one of those very special women who men find interesting beyond the physical, you will be disappointed.


In this socially liberal age, neither men or women are interested in compromise, so the majority of both will grow old alone and unsatisfied.
 

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In a totally socially liberal society that is.

They are:

1) that most men (50-80%) are absolutely physically and sexually unattractive to women. Women would rather chop wood, or clean a public toilet, than have sex with most men. Their biology is repelled, even repulsed by most men physically

2) men do not find the vast majority (much more than 80%) of women interesting. So if a woman is looking for a 'real life partner who I'm very physically attracted to', most are going to be disappointed.
The men who would pretend to be interested in your personality are just unattractive men who are desperate for sex.
The very attractive (top 5-20%) of men who can get a new girl every week, don't need need to pretend they find you interesting. They will sleep with you and move on, not wanting to be tied down. If you are looking to tie down a very physically attractive men, unless you are one of those very special women who men find interesting beyond the physical, you will be disappointed.


In this socially liberal age, neither men or women are interested in compromise, so the majority of both will grow old alone and unsatisfied.
Yeah but these days I find almost nobody in person truly interesting because it seems as if there's almost nothing left to know.

Surely we are willing to compromise? It's merely there's a sort of paralysis period of paradox of choice before certain hard realities become impossible to ignore...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
@Six

I totally agree. Compromise is essential. Being happy with having one person for yourself, with all their flaws and strengths.

I would be more than happy with that.

It's interesting you say there's nothing left to know. I agree there's nothing to know externally, at a skin deep level.

There is so much to know about another person at an inner level which as been ignored by this society. Ie look at tinder, we are reducing people to a few pictures and a short description that we swipe left or right to.

I want an intimate relationship with one person and to know them deeply. To know their fears, and allay them. To know their insecurities, and assure them that they're good enough.

I want to be someone who can nourish a person's soul, rather than just provide them with empty physical satisfaction.
 

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I think you're underestimating how loneliness, desperation and never-ending rejection from their ideal persons (especially as people get older) can pressure people to lower their standards. It's nothing unique with relationships, it's just human nature. Imagine not eating any food for several days. After being hungry for so long, you'll probably be far less picky about how food tastes than if you just had an excellent meal 5-6 hours ago.

Or consider if you were unemployed and looking for a job. At first you apply for jobs you were love to have. However, if none of these companies hire you, you'll likely lower your standards for which jobs you'll apply for as the risk of becoming homeless increases. At some point you'll decide that you're willing to work a crappy job if it means having a roof over your head and food to eat.

Some people do stay single for life. However, if having a partner and/or children is a high priority in your life, you'll have to lower your standards if you can't be with your ideal partner.
 

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I want an intimate relationship with one person and to know them deeply. To know their fears, and allay them. To know their insecurities, and assure them that they're good enough.

I want to be someone who can nourish a person's soul, rather than just provide them with empty physical satisfaction.
I've passed through the center of enough people's souls at this point to feel pretty sure but for a few weird landscapes there's nothing really unique inside any one of them... they all have the same fears, the same insecurities - it's not exactly a broad or impressive palette - there's nothing inside which is inherently more precious - it's actually coterminous with what's on the outside.


You just want to feel special, you poor soul.
 
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Most men are definitely very sexually unappealing to most women (isn't this also true the other way round?), and yes most women would indeed much rather clean toilets than have sex with them (just think of the cost of buying sex vs. buying cleaning services). But surely you don't mean that 50-80 % men are sexually unappealing to all women? Just by looking at what is actually happening around us doesn't support that theory. Most adults keep having all kinds of sexual relationships all the time, with people who don't look like the "top 5-20 %" physically, and most even get married and have children at some point. We have been living in a socially liberal age for some time already, and in most countries women have also, for some time already, been working and supporting themselves financially. People have all this sex mostly voluntarily.

As for the other figure, it sounds very optimistic to me (well, depending on what "much more than 80 %" means - for instance 99 % would be much more than 80 %...), and not just about men finding women interesting, but also the other way round. There are definitely much, much fewer than 20 men out of a hundred that I find interesting, and if I find that one that seems to actually be interesting, he'll probably start becoming more sexually appealing to me. Very few of my exes are super handsome, but I was still genuinely attracted to them at the time.

Having said that, I don't completely disagree with you. People have a choice, and that can mean less sex and more single people in the future (even though as I said, this is not a brand new development). I just don't think that it's especially sad or unsatisfying. How satisfying was it really for the ones who were having sex with the horribly unappealing, depressingly uninteresting people?
 

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Ultimately I think it's kinda hard to deny when you realize that people used to essentially pair off 1:1, at least to a much greater extent. Maybe it is kind of like a "channel surfing" phenomenon. When you're watching TV or listening to radio, surfing through continually hoping to find something great is a lot less fulfilling than just committing to something.

I say this because the common response to this kind of thread is a smug, "what, so you just want people to marry people they are not attracted to?" No, that's not really how things work.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
In very recent times though, far fewer people are getting together for long term relationships, marriage or to have a family.

My personal opinion is that technology has warped people's minds so much that they are not in touch with reality. Ie many young men really think they can't be happy with just one woman, and many young women really think that there is always a better guy.

We will see.

I think you're underestimating how loneliness, desperation and never-ending rejection from their ideal persons (especially as people get older) can pressure people to lower their standards. It's nothing unique with relationships, it's just human nature. Imagine not eating any food for several days. After being hungry for so long, you'll probably be far less picky about how food tastes than if you just had an excellent meal 5-6 hours ago.

Or consider if you were unemployed and looking for a job. At first you apply for jobs you were love to have. However, if none of these companies hire you, you'll likely lower your standards for which jobs you'll apply for as the risk of becoming homeless increases. At some point you'll decide that you're willing to work a crappy job if it means having a roof over your head and food to eat.

Some people do stay single for life. However, if having a partner and/or children is a high priority in your life, you'll have to lower your standards if you can't be with your ideal partner.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I disagree that the inside is coterminous with the outside. I am experiencing my inner boundlessness myself.

As for wanting to feel special, you're probably right 🙂
I am an artist after all.

I've passed through the center of enough people's souls at this point to feel pretty sure but for a few weird landscapes there's nothing really unique inside any one of them... they all have the same fears, the same insecurities - it's not exactly a broad or impressive palette - there's nothing inside which is inherently more precious - it's actually coterminous with what's on the outside.


You just want to feel special, you poor soul.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Certainly not all women, but my experience is that most women are biologically attracted to typically the same type of guy these days (looks, height etc).

Sexual relationships are easy to get, but there is an increasing hint of things being short term in relationships today. There's the feeling that people have so many options that they can leave at any time. I think that is unfortunate.

As I said above, we are more socially liberal today because of technology.

People have more opportunity to explore sexual options that may not have been logistically available to them a decade ago.

And you are quite correct, internet addiction has left most men utterly uninteresting as well.

As for your last part, I don't know. There were women who I gave (real) orgasms to a decade ago in college who probably wouldn't be too interested in me today because I'm not Chad.

On the other side, my first sexual experiences where we did conventional things were very satisfying to me. It is only when I went down the neverending road of internet lust did normal sexual practices become too unsatisfying for me, and the woman needed to be as nasty as the things that I'd seen on my computer screen.
See what I mean? 'Unattractive' can be relevant to the amount of (imagined or real) choice one has.

Most men are definitely very sexually unappealing to most women (isn't this also true the other way round?), and yes most women would indeed much rather clean toilets than have sex with them (just think of the cost of buying sex vs. buying cleaning services). But surely you don't mean that 50-80 % men are sexually unappealing to all women? Just by looking at what is actually happening around us doesn't support that theory. Most adults keep having all kinds of sexual relationships all the time, with people who don't look like the "top 5-20 %" physically, and most even get married and have children at some point. We have been living in a socially liberal age for some time already, and in most countries women have also, for some time already, been working and supporting themselves financially. People have all this sex mostly voluntarily.

As for the other figure, it sounds very optimistic to me (well, depending on what "much more than 80 %" means - for instance 99 % would be much more than 80 %...), and not just about men finding women interesting, but also the other way round. There are definitely much, much fewer than 20 men out of a hundred that I find interesting, and if I find that one that seems to actually be interesting, he'll probably start becoming more sexually appealing to me. Very few of my exes are super handsome, but I was still genuinely attracted to them at the time.

Having said that, I don't completely disagree with you. People have a choice, and that can mean less sex and more single people in the future (even though as I said, this is not a brand new development). I just don't think that it's especially sad or unsatisfying. How satisfying was it really for the ones who were having sex with the horribly unappealing, depressingly uninteresting people?

Thank you. I agree with you.

Ultimately I think it's kinda hard to deny when you realize that people used to essentially pair off 1:1, at least to a much greater extent. Maybe it is kind of like a "channel surfing" phenomenon. When you're watching TV or listening to radio, surfing through continually hoping to find something great is a lot less fulfilling than just committing to something.

I say this because the common response to this kind of thread is a smug, "what, so you just want people to marry people they are not attracted to?" No, that's not really how things work.
 

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In a totally socially liberal society that is.

They are:

1) that most men (50-80%) are absolutely physically and sexually unattractive to women. Women would rather chop wood, or clean a public toilet, than have sex with most men. Their biology is repelled, even repulsed by most men physically.

2) men do not find the vast majority (much more than 80%) of women interesting. So if a woman is looking for a 'real life partner who I'm very physically attracted to', most are going to be disappointed.
The men who would pretend to be interested in your personality are just unattractive men who are desperate for sex.
The very attractive (top 5-20%) of men who can get a new girl every week, don't need need to pretend they find you interesting. They will sleep with you and move on, not wanting to be tied down. If you are looking to tie down a very physically attractive men, unless you are one of those very special women who men find interesting beyond the physical, you will be disappointed.


In this socially liberal age, neither men or women are interested in compromise, so the majority of both will grow old alone and unsatisfied.

Assuming we brought back a more traditionalist, conservative society... What exactly would change in regards to what you're saying? Because I'm sure nothing much would, we'd just be more sexually repressed.

Would women stop being repulsed by the majority of men? Would men find the majority of women more interesting if we were more conservative?


I bet we'd still be rather spending our time on the internet or with other technologies. Especially once AI becomes a bigger thing.
The internet might be even more addictive in a more conservative world since it becomes even more of an escape from all these social taboos present in conservative societies (assuming this conservative society wasn't too rigidly authoritarian about how people use the internet).


Not forgetting to mention the effects of income inequality due to conservative / neo-liberal economic policy and how that impedes on social mobility within the young, thus making it harder to form romantic relationships or marry.
For example, if I can't afford a home, I'm not likely going to find someone to live with me.
 

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idealism-paralysis is a personal problem, not a societal one. Our modern socially liberal society merely allows it to flourish, and even cultivates it in some instances. It's still a personal issue though.
 

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On the other side, my first sexual experiences where we did conventional things were very satisfying to me. It is only when I went down the neverending road of internet lust did normal sexual practices become too unsatisfying for me, and the woman needed to be as nasty as the things that I'd seen on my computer screen.
Ok, I see what you mean. That is indeed a problem that'll keep both parties from having satisfying sex.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
As is a situation where an objectively mediocre, or even below average looking woman decides she won't 'settle' for men who aren't 6'3 and 7 inches.

There are women who I gave (real) orgasms to a decade ago in college who would probably give me a dull stare and speak to me in a monotone voice If we'd been in college today, and I'd approached them.

Because of the illusion of choice, people rationalize that they don't 'like' something.

Hell, when I was addicted to fast food, lean chicken skewers would've tasted pretty bad to me.

Now I love them, as my mind isn't conditioned anymore to the empty dopamine hit.

On the other side, my first sexual experiences where we did conventional things were very satisfying to me. It is only when I went down the neverending road of internet lust did normal sexual practices become too unsatisfying for me, and the woman needed to be as nasty as the things that I'd seen on my computer screen.
Ok, I see what you mean. That is indeed a problem that'll keep both parties from having satisfying sex.
 

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In a totally socially liberal society that is.

They are:

1) that most men (50-80%) are absolutely physically and sexually unattractive to women. Women would rather chop wood, or clean a public toilet, than have sex with most men. Their biology is repelled, even repulsed by most men physically
:jazz::eek:h: that’s funny lol
2) men do not find the vast majority (much more than 80%) of women interesting. So if a woman is looking for a 'real life partner who I'm very physically attracted to', most are going to be disappointed.
The men who would pretend to be interested in your personality are just unattractive men who are desperate for sex.
The very attractive (top 5-20%) of men who can get a new girl every week, don't need need to pretend they find you interesting. They will sleep with you and move on, not wanting to be tied down. If you are looking to tie down a very physically attractive men, unless you are one of those very special women who men find interesting beyond the physical, you will be disappointed.


In this socially liberal age, neither men or women are interested in compromise, so the majority of both will grow old alone and unsatisfied.
As a 57 y/o male I can speak from experience that your theory is false
I’ve been propositioned by 30 year olds
Most senior women do date men of similar age
While it’s true that many a senior finds the [10-20] age gap more attractive
Many will not date someone 20 years their junior
 

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Extreme sexual liberalism was never widely practiced, our strong pair-bonding instincts preclude that. The only example I can think of are hippie communes. Even the weaker version known as open relationships is falling out of fashion, millennials are less likely to accept cheating than Xers and boomers.

People who experiment with sexually liberal lifestyle as young adults often settle down during their 30s. No reason to worry about the OP's scenario.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
@VinnieBob

Did you consider the idea that they found your money attractive?


Many young men in the west don't have the opportunities for a steady, well paying job that men of your generation had.

For that reason I'm not surprised that women who are at an age where they are trying to find a provider, were interested in you
 

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In a totally socially liberal society that is.

They are:

1) that most men (50-80%) are absolutely physically and sexually unattractive to women. Women would rather chop wood, or clean a public toilet, than have sex with most men. Their biology is repelled, even repulsed by most men physically

2) men do not find the vast majority (much more than 80%) of women interesting. So if a woman is looking for a 'real life partner who I'm very physically attracted to', most are going to be disappointed.
The men who would pretend to be interested in your personality are just unattractive men who are desperate for sex.
The very attractive (top 5-20%) of men who can get a new girl every week, don't need need to pretend they find you interesting. They will sleep with you and move on, not wanting to be tied down. If you are looking to tie down a very physically attractive men, unless you are one of those very special women who men find interesting beyond the physical, you will be disappointed.


In this socially liberal age, neither men or women are interested in compromise, so the majority of both will grow old alone and unsatisfied.
Many however, can compromise. It developes with age and experience.
 
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