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From http://www.theenneagrambook.com

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Average 4w5’s are devoted to cultivation of a personal worldview, often by philosophical or artistic means. They are more likely than the 4w3’s to be reclusive and out-of-touch with the greater social world, and to compensate they adopt unconventional/eccentric ways of life. They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them. They tend to withdraw for prolonged periods under stress which can leave them further isolated. As a result, they are prone to hallucinatory states and total alienation.
I'm interested in other 4w5's, or anybody's if you want to chime in, experience of hallucinations and general delusional perception of the world. I know that I feel quite often as if I am always dreaming. I may have truly hallucinated in the past in times of stress, I don't know.

What I think I understand about what happens with me is that I have a long trained habit of seeing things in terms of abstracts (symbols), which seems to add a layer of isolation between me and reality. Then sometimes I get in ecstatic states, due to heightened emotionality. Then the charged thoughts themselves have a tendency to break into my reality.

It can be frightening, because thoughts with that much power are either extremely positively charged and extremely negatively charged. It reminds me of images I've seen of Buddha being accosted by Mara (demons) while trying to achieve enlightenment.

Do you feel removed into some sort of dream world? Do you hallucinate, get almost physically lost in your emotions?

 

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Well yes, but my dreamworld is the only thing that's keeping me sane really. I even think that it helps me process the information of the real world in my own special way. Wouldn't call it delusional, as long as you can still tell the difference between both worlds. My goal is trying to bring as much as possible of my dreamworld into the real world (the positive things that is, the negative things can stay there).

By your comparison with buddhas picture I'm assuming you're talking mostly about the negative parts. I think it has to be in balance, like the force in starwars. If it was just positive you'd do irrational things cause you wont feel regret or pain, and if it was just negative you'd do irrational things too, cause you wouldnt feel love or happiness. It's like yin and yang really.

So, intense dreamworld? Yes. Very much unlike reality? Yes, unfortunately. Proud of it? Hell yes, I experience life way different than most people. Does that make life easier? No, unfortunately not.

I think that we have this connnection with our dreamworld for a reason. The most amazing artists all had imaginary dreamworlds, and this is what made them so very unique and creative. So if you can find a way to express your creativity and bring parts of your dreamworld into the real world imo you have a goldmine in your hands (not always in monitairy value)
 

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I don't know about hallucinations, but I can definitely relate to feeling out-of-touch with reality and common society, and frequent bouts of paranoia.
 
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I can relate to the total alienation part. I do withdraw under stress and I can get into isolation mode for a long time. I have always had a fantasy world that I spend way too much time in, but I have never been in a hallucinatory state.

Years ago I went through a very difficult time and I was also abusing alcohol at that time. I felt such a devastating feeling of despair and I descended into my own private hell for months.
 

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I relate to this a lot. I would say that I've probably never truly hallucinated. At least, not while sober and non-sleep-deprived, lol.

But yes, I see things in terms of symbolism a lot of the time as well. It simultaneously over-complicates my emotional life (...and real life), but also keeps me safe. It's like I live in my own labyrinth... one I created to be so complex that I can still get lost in it.

My imaginary dreamworld can consist of so many things. Fantasies about my ideal self, relationships. It can also be about totally different characters or worlds that I make up in my mind, and their relationships and adventures. It's weird. I mean I never have a break in reality in that I always know I'm daydreaming and I'm always able to differentiate but while I'm in that mode... I experience it, emotionally, like it's real. Or I can torment myself with daydreams about bad things happening. I will mentally climb an apocalyptic ladder and "see" the worst case scenario for something I'm worried about, and feel desperately helpless about it, but I'm just sitting in an irrelevant lecture the whole time.

Sometimes I even do this thing where I ask myself, "How much would someone have to pay me to do [insert horribly awkward thing here]?" Like for example, stand up in the middle of a meeting and blurt out that I'd been sleeping with one of the other people there, even though it was a secret and totally inappropriate. Or even just make up something untrue, like at work, stand up and say really loudly that I was effing my boss. Or some other graphic thing, and I will torture myself because I momentarily forget that I will never be in the situation where someone offers me money to do that. And I therefore don't have to torture myself with these thoughts (like while I'm imagining it, I will feel so much shame and anxiety as if it is really happening).

Gosh, if I could just focus more of my energy in real life pursuits. Or even bringing some of my imaginary dreamworld to the real world, bridge the gap a little, I'd be so much more intriguing lol.
 

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I'm curious of 4w5 extraverts tend to project their inner world outside more often.
 

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I'm curious of 4w5 extraverts tend to project their inner world outside more often.
I don't know if I'm a four with five. I am starting to suspect some kind of four.

But I do sometimes project my inner world outside of myself. It's hard to describe. It reminds me a little of what Jung wrote about Si--that nothing really is as it is. It could be all symbolic to me. I walk through a small town and look up at the tree. The light is filtering down through the tree, the wind is blowing through the leaves, and I wonder where my perception of the tree ends and the actual tree begins. IDK--I only hallucinate on drugs or with sleep deprivation, but I have the tendency to try to read meaning into physical things.

I have experimented with things like talking in tongues. I have gotten into a seemingly trance-like state that I would describe as projecting my inner world onto the external world. The moon can talk to me (I don't actually hear a voice, but I use my voice to speak for it) and songs without words come to me. As I sing them, I am talking back to the moon who is also a reflection of my perception. I did this when I was really lonely and wanted a trusted friend.

The way I interpret the bolded part is that yes, when I withdraw I lose track of reality. My flaws become huge and insurmountable. Death is looming in my future--gloating on the seeming absurdity of my current life in the face of the pain and suffering to come (the gained connections, the love, will all be lost by the loss of the physical body). The meaning will never have existed as my consciousness will fail to perceive it or the past/future.

And everyone seems to know something I don't--like happy masks which I cannot see past. I will likely start convincing myself I must have a mental illness or possibly a physical illness. It sucks butt. But then, when I start coming out of it, someone else speaks and I hear it--and the ceiling which has been painted as the night sky cracks slightly and lets a beam of daylight in (thanks Leonard Cohen), and I am able to find the door and step out into the world again.
 

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Good topic.

I have always had a tendency to question everything, which resulted in me having this "fantasy" in which I am the only conscious being that exists, and that I am dreaming up the entire universe. Does that qualify as a "lala land"?

This is how it started: As a child, I've always wondered where the world ends and I begin, so I started wondering what it would be like to live for some time in something I would now call a state of sensory deprivation. I imagined a box high up on a crane, in which I'd lie, wrapped in bubble wrap (to avoid sensing anything on my skin - that was the best I could come up with as a 5 year old), blindfolded and with ear plugs. The conclusion I came to as a kid was that, if I wouldn't feel or experience anything, I'd likely make up a world of my own inside of my head. And the conclusion following that was that I can never know if I AM in fact making all this up. So in a way, reality became my dreamworld.
Since then I've had many versions of this fantasy... Me being in some sort of experiment where "they" implant memories in me, etc.
I think it's called paranoia. :p


It makes me feel out of touch with everything too. But I think I'm doing a good job at keeping it at bay... And ultimately, who cares if it's reality or dreaming, right? If there is no way to find out... (and yeah, I've tried to "wake up"...)



"They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them."

Must admit, I've done this to a few people who failed to gain my trust and respect. It's a defence mechanism against harmful people. Only to assholes, though, and I stopped doing it. Some guys actually enjoy being confused by an obscure girl. But that's an entirely different story...
 

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I know what you talk about and I purposefully do not fall into that. It's a game, You can think and believe whatever you want and create any kind of world in your head.

But it's just a game, and it's not real. It's not real security, it's not real power, it's not real.

I aim to see the world exactly as it is.
 

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I have a INFJ 4w5 friend who get's into sleepwalk type states when she's really tired. She starts word chains with no meaning, laughs hysterically at everything and flops around, it is the most amazing and adorable thing.

Female INFJ 4w5 sp/sx against my male INFJ 5w4 sx/sp, she's like some kind of mirror being, it's immense.
 

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I've experienced and have known to evoke within myself this feeling of ''ego disintegration'' as a kid. Feeling totally blank,stripped of intentions and memory for a brief moment.

Being for a prolonged time in front of a computer screen also numbs me out,think of that msn smiley with they eyes wide open lol

I've also experienced the present as the past that's just happening in front of my eyes. Not like a particular past,but simply not as new and actual,something that's just unfolding and you have no control over and feels old

That was actually a day or two after dec 21 of last year,when some Maya person said the world did actually end but we're living in a dream lol. So idk that might have influenced it,but probably most of all Remergon + getting little sleep over these few days.
 

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I drift off into a fantasy world all the time, but I try to stay out of it. It's usually fantasies of an ideal self who's an artistic master who everybody is impressed with and praises. And then I come out of it disappointed and ashamed that I'm just me, not so-and-so. Sometimes there are negative fantasies, too, sometimes pretty violent ones towards myself. Or sometimes when I don't want to exist, my fantasies are stranger, like that I'm swirling into a bunch of colors that drift out the window and scatter on the wind before dissipating into thin air. I come as close as I can to feeling what it would be like to be wind, how nice and relieving and beautiful it would be. Or I'll create dialogues in my head, like if I'm frustrated with my boyfriend, I might create a full dialogue in my head where I'm irrational and go right for his achilles heel, which is something I never want to do (but have done) in real life.

When you guys read about Type 4s, were you as shocked as I was to know that other people have these weird fantasy lands, too?
 

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I'm interested in other 4w5's, or anybody's if you want to chime in, experience of hallucinations and general delusional perception of the world. I know that I feel quite often as if I am always dreaming. I may have truly hallucinated in the past in times of stress, I don't know.

What I think I understand about what happens with me is that I have a long trained habit of seeing things in terms of abstracts (symbols), which seems to add a layer of isolation between me and reality. Then sometimes I get in ecstatic states, due to heightened emotionality. Then the charged thoughts themselves have a tendency to break into my reality.

It can be frightening, because thoughts with that much power are either extremely positively charged and extremely negatively charged. It reminds me of images I've seen of Buddha being accosted by Mara (demons) while trying to achieve enlightenment.

Do you feel removed into some sort of dream world? Do you hallucinate, get almost physically lost in your emotions?

yes, all the time. I literally feel after periods of extreme stress (and usually, subsequent extreme choices) like I’ve been in a fugue state, almost like ive “come to” and am faced with whatever comfortable narrative I cultivate to ride out the emotional storm that typically belies the reality of the actual situation.
Reality is extremely subjective to
Me, at all times. Something I really connect with that you said as well was how you experience things as symbols. Everything to me is a metaphor for something- a lesson, a new season of life, a different path.
 
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