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As many of us perhaps know, psychoanalysis too has a typology, although it is mostly based on psychopathology. The 'schizoid' personality is the one I relate to, most certainly. The psychoanalyst Nancy McWilliams has recently written an article on the structure of the schizoid personality which i have read at least 10 times in the last year and a half, thinking how well she describes this personality without necessarily considering it pathological. It is also very interesting to see what she says about schizoid people in therapy.

I find this article very affirming, as if someone was talking about me. I've shared it with a few friends in the past and thought some of you might find it interesting.

I think the schizoid personality is something more than a few 4w5s, 5w4s and INFPs would relate to. Reading psychoanalytic literature on the schizoid personality might help us understand ourselves better, or at least give us a framework in which to interpret our lives. Also, the contemporary psychoanalytic usage of the term schizoid is often different from how it is used in the DSM - where it is merely understood as a set of observable features put together to form 'schizoid personality disorder'. As McWilliams writes in this article, schizoid people can be highly functional, productive and satisfied, and not disordered at all.

Here are a few quotes from the article. The whole article is available at http://internationalpsychoanalysis.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/McWilliamsschizoid_dynamics.pdf

"Notwithstanding the existence of some connections between schizoid psychology and psychotic vulnerability, I have been impressed repeatedly with the phenomenon of the highly creative, personally satisfied, and socially valuable schizoid individual who seems, despite an intimate acquaintance with what Freud called the primary process, never to have been at serious risk for a psychotic break. The arts, the theoretical sciences, and the philosophical and spiritual disciplines seem to contain a high proportion of such people. So does the profession of
psychoanalysis. Harold Davis (personal communication) reports that Harry Guntrip once joked to him that 'psychoanalysis is a profession by schizoids for schizoids.'"

"That is, they have intimate--and at times uneasy--familiarity with processes that in most people are out of
awareness, an access that makes psychoanalytic ideas more accessible and commonsensical to them than they are to those of us who spend years on the couch hacking through repressive defenses to make the acquaintance of our more alien impulses, images, and feelings. Schizoid people are temperamentally introspective; they like to wander among the nooks and crannies of their mind, and they find in psychoanalysis many evocative metaphors for what they find there."

"The detachment of the schizoid person represents, among other things, the defensive strategy of withdrawal from overstimulation, traumatic impingement, and invalidation, and most experienced psychoanalytic clinicians know not to take it at face value, however severe and off-putting it may appear."

"The psychoanalytic use of the term schizoid derives from the observations of 'schisms' between the internal life and the externally observable life of the schizoid individual (cf. Laing, 1965). For example, schizoid people are overtly detached, yet they describe in therapy a deep longing for closeness and compelling fantasies of intimate involvement. They appear self sufficient, and yet anyone who gets to know them well can attest to the depth of their emotional need. They can be absent-minded at the same time that they are acutely vigilant. They may
seem completely nonreactive, yet suffer an exquisite level of sensitivity. They may look affectively blunted while internally coping with what one of my schizoid friends calls “protoaffect,” the experience of being frighteningly overpowered by intense emotion. They may seem utterly indifferent to sex while nourishing a sexually preoccupied, polymorphously elaborated fantasy life."

"The term may also have been influenced by the fact that the characteristic anxieties of schizoid people concern fragmentation, diffusion, going to pieces. They feel all too vulnerable to uncontrollable schisms in the self."

"even the healthiest schizoid person may occasionally suffer psychotic terrors such as the sense that the world could implode or flood or fall apart at any minute, leaving no ground beneath one’s feet."


"Theorists in the object relations movement emphasized the presence in schizoid people of a core conflict with interpersonal closeness versus distance, a conflict in which physical (not internal) distance usually wins out. In more severely disturbed schizoid people, withdrawal can look like an unremitting state of psychological inaccessibility, whereas in those who are healthier, there is a noticeable oscillation between connection and disconnection."

"A related characteristic of schizoid individuals (one that may be misunderstood either negatively as perversity, or positively as strength of character) is an indifference to, or outright avoidance of, personal attention and admiration. Although they may want their creative work to have an impact, most schizoid people I know would rather be ignored than celebrated. Their need for space far outweighs their interest in narcissistic supplies of the usual sort."

"This acute sensitivity manifests itself from birth onward in behaviors that reject experiences that are felt as too overwhelming, too impinging, too penetrating."

"Schizoid individuals are frequently described by family members as hypersensitive or thin-skinned. Doidge (2001) emphasizes their “hyperpermeability,” the sense of being skinless, of lacking an adequately protective stimulus barrier, and notes the prevalence of images of injured skin in their fantasy life."

"It becomes easy to see how withdrawal becomes their preferred adaptation: Not only is the outer world too much for them sensually, it invalidates their experience, demands behaviors that are excruciatingly difficult, and treats them as crazy for reacting in ways they cannot control."

"Non-schizoid people, among whom are presumably the authors of the DSM and many others in the descriptive psychiatric tradition, often conclude that because schizoid individuals resolve their closeness/distance conflicts in the direction of distance and seem to thrive on being alone, they are not particularly attached and therefore are not reactive to separation. Yet internally, schizoid people may have powerful attachments. In fact, those that they have may be more intensely invested with emotion than are the attachments of people with much more
obviously “anaclitic” psychologies.Because schizoid individuals tend to feel safe with comparatively few others, any threat to or loss of their connection with the people with whom they do feel comfortable can be devastating. If there are only three individuals by whom one feels truly known, and one of these is lost, then one-third of one’s support system has vanished."

"Schizoid individuals may seek treatment because, as Guntrip (1969) notes, they have retreated so far from meaningful relationships that they feel enervated, futile, and internally dead. Or they come to therapy with a specific goal: to go on a date, to become more social, to initiate or improve a sexual relationship, to conquer what they have been told is 'social phobia.'"

"One seldom-appreciated quandary in which interpersonally sensitive schizoid individuals find themselves repeatedly involves the social situation in which they perceive, more than others do, what is going on nonverbally. The schizoid person is likely to have learned from a painful history of parental disapproval and social gaffes that some of what he or she sees is conspicuous to everyone, and some is emphatically not. And since all the undercurrents may be equally visible to the schizoid person, it is impossible for him or her to know what is socially acceptable to talk about and what is either unseen or unseemly to acknowledge.


This is inevitably a painful situation for the schizoid person. If there is a proverbial elephant in the room, he or she starts to question the point of having a conversation in the face of such silent disavowal. Because schizoid individuals lack ordinary repressive defenses and therefore find repression hard to understand in others, they are left to wonder 'How do I go forward in this conversation not acknowledging what I know to be true?'"

"Kerry Gordon (unpublished manuscript) notes that the schizoid person lives in a world of possibility, not probability. As with most patterns that reenact a theme repeatedly and come to have a self-fulfilling quality, schizoid withdrawal both increases a tendency to live in primary process and creates further withdrawal because of the aversive consequences of living increasingly intimately in the realm of primary-process awareness."

"The admiration between a more hysterical person and a more schizoid one is frequently mutual. Just as the hysterically organized woman idealizes the capacity of the schizoid man to stand alone, to “speak truth to power,” to contain affect, to tap into levels of creative imagination that she can only dream of, the schizoid man admires her warmth, her comfort with others, her empathy, her grace in expressing emotion without awkwardness or shame, her capacity to experience her own creativity in relationship."

"The celebrated hunger of schizoid individuals is, in my experience, mostly a hunger for the kind of recognition about which Benjamin (e.g., 2000) has so evocatively written, a recognition of their subjectivity. It is their capacity to engage in the struggle to attain such recognition, and their capacity to reinitiate that process when it has broken down, that has been most deeply injured in those who come to us for help."

"Empathic therapists working with schizoid clients often find themselves either initiating or responding to
conversations about music, the visual arts, the dramatic arts, literary metaphors, anthropological discoveries, historical events, or the ideas of religious and spiritual thinkers. In contrast to obsessional patients, who avoid emotion by intellectualizing, schizoid patients may find it possible to express affect once they have the intellectual vehicle in which to do so."

"“People with schizoid personality . . . tend to feel more comfortable with people who are in touch with themselves, who do not fear to reveal their weaknesses and appear mortal. One reason that a therapist’s willingness to reveal personal experiences catalyzes the therapy with schizoid clients is that even more than other individuals, these patients need to have their subjective experience acknowledged and accepted.The willingness of the analyst to be “real”--to be flawed, wrong, mad, insecure, struggling, alive, excited, authentic--may be the most believable route to fostering the schizoid person’s self-acceptance."

"I have tried in this paper to explore some ways in which schizoid psychology differs from other self-configurations, emphasizing that this differentness is neither inherently worse nor inherently better, neither less nor more mature, neither a developmental arrest nor a developmental achievement. It just is what it is and needs to be
appreciated for what it is."
 

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I enjoyed this article, faizfaiz, although I did think it leaned more towards 5w4 than 4w5 (I saw that you posted in the 5 forum too.) I liked that it was humane and affirmative in tone, and there were many valuable insights.

I really related to this:

"If there are only three individuals by whom one feels truly known, and one of these is lost, then one-third of one’s support system has vanished."

I could speak for pages on this, but suffice to say that it struck a cord.

And also to this quote from the wiki article on schizoid personality disorder:

"People with SPD are sometimes sexually apathetic, though they do not typically suffer from anorgasmia. Many schizoids have a healthy sex drive but some prefer to masturbate rather than deal with the social aspects of finding a sexual partner. Their preference to remain alone and detached may cause their need for sex to appear to be less than that of those who do not have SPD. Sex often causes individuals with SPD to feel that their personal space is being violated, and they commonly feel that masturbation or sexual abstinence is preferable to the emotional closeness they must tolerate when having sex."

Yes. I actually get asked out a decent amount these days when I am around people, but this remains the case. Unlike, for instance, my E6 friend who feels shame regarding hookups but still hooks up with a lot of people, I feel no shame but rarely have sex with anyone. When I do, it's usually due more to something circumstantial rather than b/c of the person.

The reasoning behind it is something I've struggled (read: not really tried) to explain to anyone, so it was nice to see it articulated.
 

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I enjoyed this article, faizfaiz, although I did think it leaned more towards 5w4 than 4w5 (I saw that you posted in the 5 forum too.) I liked that it was humane and affirmative in tone, and there were many valuable insights.

I really related to this:

"If there are only three individuals by whom one feels truly known, and one of these is lost, then one-third of one’s support system has vanished."

I could speak for pages on this, but suffice to say that it struck a cord.

And also to this quote from the wiki article on schizoid personality disorder:

"People with SPD are sometimes sexually apathetic, though they do not typically suffer from anorgasmia. Many schizoids have a healthy sex drive but some prefer to masturbate rather than deal with the social aspects of finding a sexual partner. Their preference to remain alone and detached may cause their need for sex to appear to be less than that of those who do not have SPD. Sex often causes individuals with SPD to feel that their personal space is being violated, and they commonly feel that masturbation or sexual abstinence is preferable to the emotional closeness they must tolerate when having sex."

Yes. I actually get asked out a decent amount these days when I am around people, but this remains the case. Unlike, for instance, my E6 friend who feels shame regarding hookups but still hooks up with a lot of people, I feel no shame but rarely have sex with anyone. When I do, it's usually due more to something circumstantial rather than b/c of the person.

The reasoning behind it is something I've struggled (read: not really tried) to explain to anyone, so it was nice to see it articulated.


thanks :).

what makes you feel this is more 5w4 than 4w5? would you say that 4w5s are more emotional? sometimes i wonder if i am a 5w4 but i don't think so really.

what is your jungian type? for many years, i read the MBTI descriptions of INFP and was not sure if i am as sentimental, relationship oriented as those descriptions paint INFPs to be. my schizoid side seemed to be quite non-INFP. but when i read jung's own description of introverted feeling, and also the description by van der Hoop, i realised it matches well with the schizoid personality, especially as described by McWilliams. however, if one is a 4w5 INFJ, then one may not relate to the schizoid personality as much as a 4w5 INFP.

i agree with the quotation about masturbation and sex. i too avoid being social and letting people into my world, and that means sex is not easily accessible. even when it is, it can be hard for me to have sex with someone i am have not know well for long.
 

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Wow. Thanks for sharing this, @faizafaiz I relate to the parts you quoted a LOT. I'll read the rest when I get the chance.

One part I wanted to comment on:
"The admiration between a more hysterical person and a more schizoid one is frequently mutual. Just as the hysterically organized woman idealizes the capacity of the schizoid man to stand alone, to “speak truth to power,” to contain affect, to tap into levels of creative imagination that she can only dream of, the schizoid man admires her warmth, her comfort with others, her empathy, her grace in expressing emotion without awkwardness or shame, her capacity to experience her own creativity in relationship."
It's true, I'm very drawn to women with that kind of personality and for exactly the reason it states there. Their empathy mixed with their social ease and humor melts me.

I never related much to the DSM version of the "schizoid" type much.
 

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thanks :).

what makes you feel this is more 5w4 than 4w5? would you say that 4w5s are more emotional? sometimes i wonder if i am a 5w4 but i don't think so really.

what is your jungian type? for many years, i read the MBTI descriptions of INFP and was not sure if i am as sentimental, relationship oriented as those descriptions paint INFPs to be. my schizoid side seemed to be quite non-INFP. but when i read jung's own description of introverted feeling, and also the description by van der Hoop, i realised it matches well with the schizoid personality, especially as described by McWilliams. however, if one is a 4w5 INFJ, then one may not relate to the schizoid personality as much as a 4w5 INFP.

i agree with the quotation about masturbation and sex. i too avoid being social and letting people into my world, and that means sex is not easily accessible. even when it is, it can be hard for me to have sex with someone i am have not know well for long.
Yes, I do think that 4w5's are more classically emotional. For me, it becomes particularly clear when I'm disintegrating. I think my wing is pretty strong but that the core is always way more controlling of the overall personality. I am a four with a strong five flair. But I do know that different fours express their emotionality in different ways.

I haven't read up on Jung. When I was younger and took MBTI tests I always tested INFP.

Good to hear that someone also empathizes with the second quote. :)
 

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no joke, I came on here looking for a thread addressing this sort cosmic-chasm style alienation that will not seem to leave me, that has been with me since adolescence...and I find this!

I might wonder if INFP 4w5 so/sps would relate to this most (inner feeling and subjectivity paired with socially oriented observation). People get mixed up inside of me, pierce my very being; I read their mind(s) and perhaps naïvely, when younger, I assumed that they were doing the same with me (uh oh!) But as one gets older and comes to realize that most people don't play that game like that, it becomes more a sense of anxiety: can they? can't they? are they? aren't they? Which in turn becomes a sense of guilt (and this is ultimately healthy, I think)...

I'm at this point in my life now where I have already made some positive core changes in my outlook/behaviors because I frankly do not want to embody the sort of description as given by McWilliams. But I've still a long way to go (and Freud always knowing that the treatment was never meant as a cure, only a palliative). What now...what now...well, off to meditate and to take my mind off of myself if only for a spell. And I suppose we can always hope that self-awareness, showing us not as individualized as we thought we were, brings us back into the cosmic fold and helps to make us feel at home with who we are now and who we will always want to be more like.
 

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Thanks for sharing :) Some of this describes me, but I agree that it might be more 5 than 4. This characterization seems to emphasize emotional detachment, which I don't think is very me. I think that 90% of the time I couldn't detach if I wanted to. I do agree with you and pandemonium (whenever I try to do that @ thing to mention someone it doesn't work for me...) about the masturbation and sex issue, though. It's interesting to me because I've really never thought about it before. It sounds horrible, but a decent amount of the time I'd just rather not deal with having sex with my boyfriend because it seems like an invasion and disruption of something extremely personal. In my mind, the majority of the time sex is to appease the other person, and I often just feign excitement, patiently waiting until I can be alone at some point to take care of my own needs. I'd much prefer complete privacy and safety and the opportunity to tune into myself rather than someone else. I feel like that's probably very INFP-ish, along the same lines as wanting alone time with your thoughts. Also, do you know what other types are identified by this typology? I want to see if another type fits me better, but I can't find anything on Google.
 

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Thanks for sharing :) Some of this describes me, but I agree that it might be more 5 than 4. This characterization seems to emphasize emotional detachment, which I don't think is very me. I think that 90% of the time I couldn't detach if I wanted to. I do agree with you and pandemonium (whenever I try to do that @ thing to mention someone it doesn't work for me...) about the masturbation and sex issue, though. It's interesting to me because I've really never thought about it before. It sounds horrible, but a decent amount of the time I'd just rather not deal with having sex with my boyfriend because it seems like an invasion and disruption of something extremely personal. In my mind, the majority of the time sex is to appease the other person, and I often just feign excitement, patiently waiting until I can be alone at some point to take care of my own needs. I'd much prefer complete privacy and safety and the opportunity to tune into myself rather than someone else. I feel like that's probably very INFP-ish, along the same lines as wanting alone time with your thoughts. Also, do you know what other types are identified by this typology? I want to see if another type fits me better, but I can't find anything on Google.
You will need to find information on personality disorders as understood in psychoanalysis. Traditionally, psychoanalysis has had a typology of personality disorders rather than personalities. However, increasingly it is the case that it is considered that we all have a particular personality dynamic and that a disorder can be diagnosed when that dynamic is too underdeveloped, or unhealthy, or rigid - each of which coincides with the others. The personalities are -

obsessive compulsive, histrionic (or hysterical), narcissistic, avoidant, dependent, schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid, manic depressive (or bipolar), and anti-social.

I would assume that 4s would often identify with schizoid, schizotypal, narcissistic and histrionic, the last being perhaps more for the 4w3 than the 4w5.

Where can you find more info on this online? I'm not sure. The psychoanalytic writers who have written extensively on this are Nancy McWilliams, Salman Akhtar and Otto Kernberg (a bit outdated). Try searching for their books on libgen.org or another such website.
 

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You will more easily find references to these personalities in articles and books about the DSM. The DSM barely describes observable symptoms and is not of much use for introspection. Psychoanalysis gives a thick description of each personality - how the various structures of the psyche interact, what lies in the unconscious, how such persons' may have experienced their childhood, their relationship patters, and their sense of self.
 

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You will need to find information on personality disorders as understood in psychoanalysis. Traditionally, psychoanalysis has had a typology of personality disorders rather than personalities. However, increasingly it is the case that it is considered that we all have a particular personality dynamic and that a disorder can be diagnosed when that dynamic is too underdeveloped, or unhealthy, or rigid - each of which coincides with the others. The personalities are -

obsessive compulsive, histrionic (or hysterical), narcissistic, avoidant, dependent, schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid, manic depressive (or bipolar), and anti-social.

I would assume that 4s would often identify with schizoid, schizotypal, narcissistic and histrionic, the last being perhaps more for the 4w3 than the 4w5.

Where can you find more info on this online? I'm not sure. The psychoanalytic writers who have written extensively on this are Nancy McWilliams, Salman Akhtar and Otto Kernberg (a bit outdated). Try searching for their books on libgen.org or another such website.
Thanks! Now that you list them out, I'm pretty sure I actually have notes on this from a couple years ago (psych major). Oops.
 
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You will need to find information on personality disorders as understood in psychoanalysis. Traditionally, psychoanalysis has had a typology of personality disorders rather than personalities. However, increasingly it is the case that it is considered that we all have a particular personality dynamic and that a disorder can be diagnosed when that dynamic is too underdeveloped, or unhealthy, or rigid - each of which coincides with the others. The personalities are -

obsessive compulsive, histrionic (or hysterical), narcissistic, avoidant, dependent, schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid, manic depressive (or bipolar), and anti-social.

I would assume that 4s would often identify with schizoid, schizotypal, narcissistic and histrionic, the last being perhaps more for the 4w3 than the 4w5.

Where can you find more info on this online? I'm not sure. The psychoanalytic writers who have written extensively on this are Nancy McWilliams, Salman Akhtar and Otto Kernberg (a bit outdated). Try searching for their books on libgen.org or another such website.
According to enneagraminstitute (Riso Hudson)

Type 4 *generally* corresponds with Depressive (Melancholic), Narcissist and Avoidant personality (disorder)
Type 5 *generally* corresponds with Schizoid, Schizotypal and Avoidant personality (disorder)
Type 9 *generally* corresponds with Schizoid and Dependent personality (disorder)

Both Schizoid (Schizotypal) and Avoidant are both understandably related to 'Withdawn' social style of 4, 5 and 9.

Schizoid and Avoidant attachment style said:
The question of whether SPD qualifies as a full personality disorder or simply as an avoidant attachment style is contentious. If what has been known as schizoid personality disorder is no more than an attachment style requiring more distant emotional proximity, then many of the more problematic reactions these individuals show in interpersonal situations may be partly accounted for by the social judgments commonly imposed on those with this style. Several sources to date have confirmed the synonymy of SPD and avoidant attachment style, which leaves open the question of how researchers might best approach this subject in future diagnostic manuals and therapeutic practice. However, individuals with SPD characteristically do not seek social interactions merely due to lack of interest, while those of the avoidant personality type crave interactions but fear rejection.
Dismissive Avoidant attachment style is however not the same as Avoidant Personality Disorder.

Naranjo relates Schizoid to all Head types (5,6,7), and all Heart types (image-types) to Narcissist PD. So there you go. :tongue: What.ever.

I do think that there is significant difference between 4 and 5 as well as between Avoidant (4w5 and 5w4) and Schizoid (5w4, 5w6), so I'm inclined to follow RH. Narcissism seems more likely related to 3 wing. Histrionic I would agree with you, but I think is related to disintegration to 2 (both wings, but I think instincual stack makes a big difference in how it emerges).

FWIW, you don't sound Schizoid to me, rather Avoidant (but only because you say you relate to schizoid), but of course that's just my impression. Schizoid I relate more to emotional detachment, as well as a more dismissive (or self-complacent) attitude towards others.
 

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Thanks for that :)

As I said before, there is the DSM definition of schizoid and the psychoanalytic definition. Within the psychoanalytic definition, McWilliams is trying to break new ground my highlighting the humanity, the emotionality of the schizoid person. As she writes, she is doing what other psychoanalysts have done for other personalities - Kohut for narcissistic personalities, and Freud for the Oedipal personalities. I think Riso and Hudson are perhaps more attuned to the DSM way of looking at things.

I rather relate to McWilliams way of defining the schizoid person, and not so much to the avoidant personality. McWilliams describes a curious blend of overt detachment and covert sensitivity, a seemingly bland outer life and a rich inner life - that is something I can relate to a lot, and I think that is more 4w5 than 5w4. That is also more INFP than INTP, if you look at Jung's description of Fi and not the MBTI's dilutions of it.

What makes you say I sound more avoidant than schizoid?
 

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Thanks for that :)

As I said before, there is the DSM definition of schizoid and the psychoanalytic definition. Within the psychoanalytic definition, McWilliams is trying to break new ground my highlighting the humanity, the emotionality of the schizoid person. As she writes, she is doing what other psychoanalysts have done for other personalities - Kohut for narcissistic personalities, and Freud for the Oedipal personalities. I think Riso and Hudson are perhaps more attuned to the DSM way of looking at things.

I rather relate to McWilliams way of defining the schizoid person, and not so much to the avoidant personality. McWilliams describes a curious blend of overt detachment and covert sensitivity, a seemingly bland outer life and a rich inner life - that is something I can relate to a lot, and I think that is more 4w5 than 5w4. That is also more INFP than INTP, if you look at Jung's description of Fi and not the MBTI's dilutions of it.

What makes you say I sound more avoidant than schizoid?
Here's the description of Overt and Covert - "Schizoid Personality Disorder in which classic and contemporary descriptive views are synthesized with psychoanalytic observations."

Schizoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rich inner life was already observed by Bleuler, and I believe Naranjo also refers to this in his description of type 5. And surely this can look like the fantasizing of type 4 and daydreaming of type 9.

You seem more avoidant to me, (but in comparison that is), because social relations are significant to you, with regard to your identity. There is still a yearning. I'd say that's what a lot of your OP's are about. I am aware though that's just a part of you and only what you are on this site. I don't know you IRL.
 

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very interesting! at first i didn't think i would relate much, but the more i read the more i did. not completely, but somewhat. i am a INFP 4w5 and probably not as detached. this does seem more 5w4 if i had to guess, though i am not 5w4, so do not want to speak for them. i am one of those people who is very moved by a lot of things and it is hard to repress tears or anger a lot of times, which is probably more 4. but after some practice and in certain situations, i have learned to detach and/or repress, but it's not totally always natural for me. i kind of go between the two.
 

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Ehhh... As a 6 wing 5 (with 4 wing 5 in my tritype), I don't identify with the term "schizoid" in fact most of what was quoted from the article reminded me how much my identification with Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD) during my childhood, teen, and young adult years resonates with quite a few seemingly "schizoid" qualities.

I mean, why frame such characteristics as non-pathological schizoid tendencies when AvPD could match it better? I mean, pathologically speaking, schizoid personality is seen as lack of any desire to feel connection with people, whereas with AvPD a person intensely wants connections with others but simultaneously is fearful, anxious, or stressed by it. I wouldn't know to say whether or not one condition comes with more intense emotions about the lack of connection or less emotionality, but what I've read is that a schizoid personality doesn't "feel" an emotional compulsion, more like some kind of social obligation or pressure (like Dexter Morgan from the show Dexter).

Perhaps there is overlap? and whether a person is a type 5 or has a 5 wing could explain nuances?
 

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Ehhh... As a 6 wing 5 (with 4 wing 5 in my tritype), I don't identify with the term "schizoid" in fact most of what was quoted from the article reminded me how much my identification with Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD) during my childhood, teen, and young adult years resonates with quite a few seemingly "schizoid" qualities.

I mean, why frame such characteristics as non-pathological schizoid tendencies when AvPD could match it better? I mean, pathologically speaking, schizoid personality is seen as lack of any desire to feel connection with people, whereas with AvPD a person intensely wants connections with others but simultaneously is fearful, anxious, or stressed by it. I wouldn't know to say whether or not one condition comes with more intense emotions about the lack of connection or less emotionality, but what I've read is that a schizoid personality doesn't "feel" an emotional compulsion, more like some kind of social obligation or pressure (like Dexter Morgan from the show Dexter).

Perhaps there is overlap? and whether a person is a type 5 or has a 5 wing could explain nuances?
the schizoid's lack of desire to feel connection with people is a DSM construction, i think. if you look at the psychoanalytic descriptions of schizoid personality, which come from observing people in therapy over years, and not from a checklist of overtly seen and felt characteristics, the schizoid comes out as someone who is deeply interested in connections and at the same time deeply afraid of connecting too much.

i do not know very much about the phenomenology of the avoidant personality, but from the little i have read it seems that the avoidant's fear is of being attacked, criticised, etc. while the schizoid's fear is of ceasing to exist as a separate entity. the avoidant's fears come more from middle or early childhood, while the schizoid's fears are distinctly 'oral' in flavour, which means they come from the first year or so of life.

i'm sure type 6 matches more with avoidant than with schizoid.
 

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the schizoid's fear is of ceasing to exist as a separate entity.
Whoah. o___o That's very intriguing. I'd never thought of that and I don't think I ever would. Do you have that kind of a fear, or feeling, or some kind of sensation?

I wonder, also, do /would scenes like the one in Where The Wild Things Are when the boy is swallowed bother you? Or things like bodily invasion or possession, or being enveloped by goo like in the movie The Blob?
 

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Ehhh... As a 6 wing 5 (with 4 wing 5 in my tritype), I don't identify with the term "schizoid" in fact most of what was quoted from the article reminded me how much my identification with Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD) during my childhood, teen, and young adult years resonates with quite a few seemingly "schizoid" qualities.

I mean, why frame such characteristics as non-pathological schizoid tendencies when AvPD could match it better? I mean, pathologically speaking, schizoid personality is seen as lack of any desire to feel connection with people, whereas with AvPD a person intensely wants connections with others but simultaneously is fearful, anxious, or stressed by it. I wouldn't know to say whether or not one condition comes with more intense emotions about the lack of connection or less emotionality, but what I've read is that a schizoid personality doesn't "feel" an emotional compulsion, more like some kind of social obligation or pressure (like Dexter Morgan from the show Dexter).

Perhaps there is overlap? and whether a person is a type 5 or has a 5 wing could explain nuances?
Yes I agree. I think when you look at type 5 and 9 you could say it sort of corresponds with detachment, disembodied (schizm) mind and (depersonalization) blunted affect vs 9s disengagement, psychological numbing and adhedonia. It's a subtle difference, with 5 being more cerebral in comparison.
 
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