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Real life examples would be great, since I've yet to see one. The very few 8's and 5's I know seem standoffish towards each other and bad with sharing feelings. In particular, the female 8 always grunts a "go away." in an irritated-friendly tone when her bff fires the "do you love me?(platonically)" question.

And one of the 5's has mentioned her resentment of being controlled.

So: pros, cons and how do they generally come together?
 

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It's probably because I'm an INFJ, but I don't think I would like an 8-type.

If an 8-type wants to control their environment, and that includes controlling me or perhaps even, my possessions, conflicts would easily arise.

If I bother to argue something, I'm right 95% of the time. If I'm wrong about something, I usually realize it right away and relent.

So... an 8-type would have to see eye-to-eye with me on things, otherwise I would utterly reject their assertive nature and logically explain why they're wrong. At which point, there would be constant clashes, and one of us would break.

Or I would decide to let them do things their way, and totally distance myself from them and cut-off any chance of a relationship.


The problem is that 5-types strive for core competency. This means doing things the "right" way. If someone creates obstacles for us all for the sake of having control; they easily lose our respect.

But I haven't met many eights, so more first-hand experience would be good.
 

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The 8 would try to control me, I would dig my heels in and there would be irreconcilable confrontation. There is really no other end to this scenario.
 

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I am a Five and I have Eight in my tritype. Five brings me detachment and Eight influences me to hide my weaknesses. In romantic relationships, a Five relationship would be okay, but an Eight relationship would not. It's because I don't act like an Eight all the time so I wouldn't meet their energy but I also would challenge them periodically.
 
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I have no romantic experience with any 8's, though I have known 8's in a professional context. I have no problem with them as people, but I know that I could never stand to be in a relationship with one. I have a counterphobic 6 wing and I generally cherish my autonomy. It probably also doesn't help that 5's integrate toward 8. This is all speculation on my part, but I would see an attempted relationship between a 5 and an 8 as resulting in an endless series of power-struggles and conflicts.

In fact, after looking back at my old Enneagram Demographics thread
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/31918-enneagram-demographics.html
(which is admittedly a very rough guide) I noticed that marriages between 5s and 8s were among the least common. I also noticed that many 5s appeared more often to marry more submissive or at least less dominant types such as 6s and 2s, though this may also just reflect my personal preferences. Still I am deeply skeptical of the viability of such relationships.
 

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I'll give my personal experience.

I am a 5 female and my best-friend's boyfriend is an 8. He's also my friend but everyone around us tells us that we fight like we are brother and sister. We constantly bicker. If he says something I don't agree with I have no qualms in questioning his claims or his aggressiveness in a direct, vocal manner. As is a 5's way.. He, however, seems to think that this is a call to arms and that he must go into combat mode to get his point across (even if his point happens to be the same as mine anyway). I almost always call him out on his harsh and hasty judgment of others and constantly feel like I have to defend others against his unjustified condemnation of them (even if I couldn't care less about them myself). This could just be a maturity thing on his part and I don't know where he sits on the health scale for type 8.

Literally almost every word spoken to between us is a budding argument and even when we do agree there is tension because an argument most likely preceded said agreement and was necessary for us to finally see eye-to-eye. Despite all this, I don't really take his aggressive behaviour personally or emotionally and I think that is the only reason that we can get along quite well. This is only because we have common interests. I feel as though if we had nothing in common, I would never have the time of day or the energy for his antics.
 

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I don't think I've come across many core 8s but I am fairly certain a person I knew was one and we had a wonderful relationship until he became unhealthy and we fell apart. There was a bit of power play between us but nothing serious. I never allowed that to really get to me because I have no problem asserting myself among friends.
 

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I do not know, it sort of happened when I wasn't looking. We have a song "Your the Boss," by Brian Setzer, where two lovers argue about whose in charge in the bedroom...and they keep trying to give the "authority" to each other.





You keep it light, inject humor where you can, try not to take things too seriously. You recognize when she's being "8ish" and when you're being "5ish" and you make allowances for it. I'm her hot air balloon, she's my anchor.
 

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Real life examples would be great, since I've yet to see one. The very few 8's and 5's I know seem standoffish towards each other and bad with sharing feelings. In particular, the female 8 always grunts a "go away." in an irritated-friendly tone when her bff fires the "do you love me?(platonically)" question.

And one of the 5's has mentioned her resentment of being controlled.

So: pros, cons and how do they generally come together?
This is a really good question ;-) It seems to me that the only way this pair would work is if the type 5 is sociable (extroverted).

Otherwise, it would be extremely hard to penetrate through the concrete walls of a type 5 and keeping the communication open (introverted).

I have been involved with a type 5w4 (ISFP) before. Our relationship lasted for a few years and ended when he stopped talking to me. Once type 5s shut down, they LITERALLY SHUT DOWN and shut out and shun you COMPLETELY!

Being a sexual type 4, I HATED him for that and vowed to seek revenge. I am emotional being, so I THRIVE on emotional content!

There is a type 5w6 (INTP) who showed interest in me at work but then backed off when the emotions became intense. He would give me an advance notice whenever he was taking time off and/or a vacation, just so I would know he was gone. He always told me when and where he was going and when he would return...LOL! Before his departure, I'd say to him, "Don't stay away for TOO long, you KNOW how I get." His reply was, "Well, I wouldn't want to make you mad, you would punch me in my nose!" It's true...lol ;-)

I can see type 5s and type 8s being real good friends through a shared activity involving intense intellectual stimulation. If either one can meet and/or beat the challenge and then create mutual challenges for each other on a continuous basis, then that's when a romantic partnership can begin ;-)

By 4w3 SX/SP
 

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I can imagine that there would probably be some kind of attraction at first but we'd quickly pull away. Don't get me wrong, I like strong, assertive, opinionated people, but after a while the control thing would get to me.

On the pro side, an 8 probably wouldn't stress a need for emotional connectivity or be clingy/needy. I think the forcefulness of an 8 would really push a 5 to come out of their shell. Both types are very strong-willed and that could either hurt or harm a friendship or relationship between two people of these types. But I think a lot of the similarities and differences would also have to do with wings and/or instincts, too.

Any Type 8s out there who want to give some feedback?
 
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I can imagine that there would probably be some kind of attraction at first but we'd quickly pull away. Don't get me wrong, I like strong, assertive, opinionated people, but after a while the control thing would get to me.

On the pro side, an 8 probably wouldn't stress a need for emotional connectivity or be clingy/needy. I think the forcefulness of an 8 would really push a 5 to come out of their shell. Both types are very strong-willed and that could either hurt or harm a friendship or relationship between two people of these types. But I think a lot of the similarities and differences would also have to do with wings and/or instincts, too.

Any Type 8s out there who want to give some feedback?
As I said before, I'm the 5 in the 5/8 marriage of 13 years. Our attraction has always been explosive in nature. Our passions are very powerful. The first time we kissed, my lips went numb (no kidding). We are exactly one week apart in age, we grew up within 25 miles of one another, and we met in college. I was a veteran returning to get my undergrad degree while she was working on her masters.

My wife is someone who knows she needs tenderness, but she doesn't want to admit to it. I was the one who did not want to be emotionally connected or clingy/needy. She made me see a reason for it. We're sort of like planets in a strange orbit. We come close to one another at times, and we go our separate ways at times, somehow our "gravitational pull" equals out. There's something symbiotic about it. We rejuvenate one another so we can do what needs doing on a daily basis. Obviously, she's totally a "Type A" person and I'm a "Type B." There are times where her aggressive frontal assaults are useless, then it's time to call in me, the strategist, who can find a way around the defenses.

I'm not saying there aren't power plays at times. I am not saying that she doesn't react badly when I put my foot in my mouth and say something that (from her point of view) has absolutely no bearing or context on the moment we're in. There are times when both of us feel cornered and we have a hell of a time keeping things from escalating. She does not like herself when she rages. She is capable of saying and doing things she regrets later. She has a hard time letting go of her anger and hurt. She lashes out at anyone (and anything) she perceives to be a threat to her stability and security (this generally translates into time and money for her).

Of course, with my detachment skills, I can flare up, vent, and be over it, in the time it took me to write this sentence. It baffles her how I do this. I do not dwell too much on things I cannot change. All I can do is look forward and work to make it so it doesn't happen again.
 

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I can see type 5s and type 8s being real good friends through a shared activity involving intense intellectual stimulation. If either one can meet and/or beat the challenge and then create mutual challenges for each other on a continuous basis, then that's when a romantic partnership can begin ;-)
I second this. They've got to have mutual interests/pursuits otherwise it's an explosion waiting to happen. And even then..
 

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I'd like to chime in, but let me preface I wasn't in a serious relationship with this 8. We were, however, attracted to each other, but nothing came from it because he scared me. Also, we we both in very unhealthy levels at the time we started getting to know each other. With all that said, he made first contact. He kept sending me facebook friend requests as we shared two mutual friends. I finally accepted and he'd 'like' my notes and also 'tag' me in some of his. He also provided his link to his journal entries, which were full of lamentation, intensity, and some derangement - stuff that I found interesting, somewhat tantalizing, but also dangerous. That's the word to be describe this individual: dangerous. I was playing with a loaded gun. We'd chat on IM and talk on the phone at times. I ended up listening to and asking him questions about 90% of the time; I didn't mind this so much because I'd much rather him know less about me and he seemed like a wonderful case study in trying to understand the workings of a ego-narcissistic, power-hungry, sexually-charged psycho. He'd talk about all his sexual conquests, of which he had countless many, and I am quite certain he wasn't lying about this. The man exuded sex appeal. And danger. And cunning.

I couldn't help but be drawn to his intensity. He was also highly street smart, intelligent, instinctual, powerful, strong, and off. He read me passages from Hunter S. Thompson books. This is all hypothetical, but I had the gut feeling that if he and I were healthy, truly mature individuals and wanted to take a stab at a relationship that we'd be unstoppable. We'd probably make some enemies along the way because we wouldn't hold back; we'd go for the kill as a twosome. I'd help him with strategy, calm him down when his anger blew up, and know how to be his PR person when tension erupted between him and his associates and/or competition. He'd help me be more fearless and just go for things without overthinking. We'd somehow end up providing a good balance to what the other lacked or needed to work on. We kept talking about escaping to an isolated island, leaving everyone and everything we knew behind. Fantasy stuff, yes, but there was something really sweet and innocent about this, too...but yeah, we were both extremely unhealthy, and some of the things he told me negatively affected me and charged up my paranoia. I wonder about him at times. Now that I'm healthier, I don't think I'd want to revisit that with him because I have major doubts he's gotten out of his unhealthy fixations. I feel for him though because he's had a difficult upbringing, riddled with real, actual abandonment which probably fueled his need to see the world as his enemy and something to conquer and consume.

5-8 pairings: not for the faint of heart, that's all I'm sayin'.
 

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What works.... both appreciate independence and autonomy and respect in the other. In my experience with a Five, we both get each other's core intuitively. Five in my opinion has been one of the best types in a romantic setting to weather the storm of my temper tantrums and not take them personally. Also, being involved with a Five has triggered me to take a long hard look at myself and how my words and actions impact those around me.

What doesn't work is the tendency of Five to withdraw without warning as an Eight it really irks the shit out of me because it triggers my own sensitivities to rejection. And, then you know what happens....yep I act out and then Five withdraws even further. *deep sighs* Palmer's following description of 5/8 pairing has been dead on in my romantic experience with a Five. I enjoy Fives because they make me think and they have the guts to show up for the fight and I love it! Especially that they don't hold grudges afterwards.

Here's Palmer's description
Five with Eight: An Observer-Boss Couple

The Boss is arguably the Enneagram's most assertive type, and the Observer is the most retracted. Eights want more, and Fives have minimal needs. Eights are outer-directed, and Fives retreat to privacy. Yet despite their obvious differences this is a frequently paired couple, and the two share an intrinsic affinity. Positioned as each other's point of security and stress, long-term partners begin to resemble each other. After years of living together, the aggressive Boss looks remarkably tame and the Observer seems to have taken assertiveness training.

Fives are far more outspoken in the security of their own home, and attitude that dovetails with Eight's demand for truth. In this relationship an Observer can experience emotional energy, and although they detest every battle, Fives usually concur that their Boss lessons produce beneficial results. The overall effect is enlivening because anger pushes Fives to have their feelings in the moment. It's hard to detach when you're highly energized, and Fives do react spontaneously in a secure relationship. This relationship can initiate Observers into emotional life, and form their side of interaction Eights learn to wait.

A common interaction involves Five's becoming overwhelmed and Eight's complaining about having to hold back. Fives can drain the force out of an interaction just as efficiently as a partner can pump it in. The couple's emotional currents resemble the cresting and ebbing of tides: Eights press for contact with oceanic force, which is checked by an undertow of withdrawal. The emotional force of expansion and contraction will be entirely familiar to both. Fives' emotions well up when they are safely alone, and Eights' emotions contract forcefully when under stress.

The couple often lives at Eight for long periods, which inevitably involves loud, meaningful late-night debates. Observers are initially overwhelmed and want to flee,, but living with a Boss opens feelings. From their side of the relationship Eights are often disarmed when they are met by inner quiet. An Observer's emotional self-control can encourage Eights to look within themselves rather than pick a fight.

Both types place enormous value on personal autonomy. Freedom of action is a must. They know what they like and what they don't like, and neither is likely to get enmeshed in a partner's agenda. On the high side this mutual independence of spirit allows the two to speak bluntly and honestly to each other. On the low side the partners may be unable to compromise and may have very little guilt about their effect on each other. Fives sometimes have the notion that emotional pain stems from poor self-control, which allows them to escape responsibility for other people's feelings. It is also possible that an Eight in pain will seek to even the score. Revenge can play a part in this relationship, with Eight pushing for top-dog position.

When an Observer-Boss couple meets at Five, they often develop great respect for uninterrupted time alone. It's like living by yourself, all the while knowing that someone you love is in close proximity. On the high side the relationship produces both emotional autonomy and a dear companion within calling distance, on the low side each withholds affection from the other. A five's withdrawal broadcasts through the house a loud, petulant pout -- an effective way to disappear and still demonstrate disapproval. It's almost impossible to force an unwilling Five to cooperate; the energy will simply drain out of any encounter. In retaliation, Eights hang out their own Do Not Disturb sign, and the resulting battle of wills can escalate into a silence that shouts, "Go away! I don't need you and I don't care."

Because these two share closely connected psychological dynamics within the nine-pointed star, they have an unusual opportunity to witness themselves in each other's behavior. Fives need to see a Boss's assertive manner as an antidote to their own chronic inability to go public. Just knowing life is worth fighting for can be healing to detached people, and learning to speak impulsively is an exhilarating release. From the other side of the interaction Eights can trust an Observer who maintains confidentiality and demonstrates emotional control. In the same way that long-term couples seem to become energetically alike, they can also exchange behaviors. In this relationship a successful marriage of qualities begets an Observer who springs into action and a patient Boss who can wait.
 

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What works.... both appreciate independence and autonomy and respect in the other. In my experience with a Five, we both get each other's core intuitively. Five in my opinion has been one of the best types in a romantic setting to weather the storm of my temper tantrums and not take them personally. Also, being involved with a Five has triggered me to take a long hard look at myself and how my words and actions impact those around me.

What doesn't work is the tendency of Five to withdraw without warning as an Eight it really irks the shit out of me because it triggers my own sensitivities to rejection. And, then you know what happens....yep I act out and then Five withdraws even further. *deep sighs* Palmer's following description of 5/8 pairing has been dead on in my romantic experience with a Five. I enjoy Fives because they make me think and they have the guts to show up for the fight and I love it! Especially that they don't hold grudges afterwards.

Here's Palmer's description
5w4 perhaps won't hold grunges but 5w6s do due to the sixish mistrust over anything, you'll find that some tri-types will be more compatible than others.
 
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My relationship to 5s is the same as my relationship to Rubik's cubes. I think they're fascinating, but I can't figure them out and end up getting annoyed, lol.

Seriously, I might as well practice learning Sanskrit to prepare for the challenge of getting to know a 5. xD
 

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5w4 perhaps won't hold grunges but 5w6s do due to the sixish mistrust over anything, you'll find that some tri-types will be more compatible than others.
My experience has been with 5w4..no grudges. I don't subscribe to tri-type theory. However, I do believe that instinctual variants can influence compatibility.
 

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My relationship to 5s is the same as my relationship to Rubik's cubes. I think they're fascinating, but I can't figure them out and end up getting annoyed, lol.

Seriously, I might as well practice learning Sanskrit to prepare for the challenge of getting to know a 5. xD
But, you have to admit....there is still something about them that drives you to understand them. I don't know about you but most people can't influence my way of thinking but .....at least in the case of this Five...he has found a way to influence me. And, it has been for the better. :wink:
 

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I can't speak from direct experience, but I assume I'd find their need to dominate and conquer to be quite draining and intrusive. I think Eights generally seem to like me but often have a hard time expressing it. It's like they find me some strange puzzle or curiosity that they can't figure out which, in some cases, leads to them prodding and teasing (as a way to get me to open up and express more of myself, perhaps?).

There can be an underlying mutual respect but I feel like I'm from a completely different realm than they are. "Mutually mystifying" might be a good way of describing the dynamic.
 

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My relationship to 5s is the same as my relationship to Rubik's cubes. I think they're fascinating, but I can't figure them out and end up getting annoyed, lol.

Seriously, I might as well practice learning Sanskrit to prepare for the challenge of getting to know a 5. xD
What's there to figure out? ...:ninja:

:laughing:


Haha, no but seriously, I'd be curious to know what makes us (or, the 5 you know, at least) so puzzling?
 
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