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I suggest reading up on the Enneagram a LOT. Also, watching videos of people of the type you think you may be might help (as you can see their mannerisms and speech patterns and compare them to your own). One thing I would not do, if I were you, would be to not type yourself! I suppose you could try one of those fancy-shmacy tests, too- but again- everything still comes down to what YOU think, anyway. Just be honest with yourself and stick with the problem until the answer becomes obvious to you.
 

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If you are confused between 4w5 and 5w4 you probably have a strong analytical streak and often hold back. 4s and 5s do share this. The predominant emotional tone of the inner worlds of 4s and 5s are very different though because they respond differently to a shared feeling of lack. With 5s, this lack feels more like an isolation and being disconnected, and they deal with this by resigning themselves quietly to it and, ironically, using detachment and trying not to care any more as a defence. 4s feel their lack more as a sense of being deprived and misunderstood and react more turbulently than 5s, often feeling envy and swinging between feeling superior and feeling worthless.
 

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I wrote this post not too long ago, hopefully it is helpful:

I'm 5w4 and strongly identify with both descriptions, but I studied the types, not the wings, and found that on a default level I am five. It's important to remember that the ennegram studies the motivations behind what we do, what our driving forces and fears are. Take a look at these core descriptions:

Fours
- wants to be seen as gifted, intuitive, original, unique
- fear having no identity, no personal significance
- key motivation is wanting to express self/individuality
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as fundamentally different from others

Fives
- wants to be seen as intelligent, informed, knowledgable, perceptive
- fear being useless, helpless, or incapable.
- key motivation is wanting to possess knowledge and understanding
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as full of ideas/having something unusual or insightful to say

Another important thing to look at is the main insecurity of each type:

"In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings."

"Behind Fives’ relentless pursuit of knowledge are deep insecurities about their ability to function successfully in the world. Rather than engage directly with activities that might bolster their confidence, Fives “take a step back” into their minds where they feel more capable. Their belief is that from the safety of their minds they will eventually figure out how to do things—and one day rejoin the world."

I am a 5 because my most basic insecurities lie in the fear of participating in the real world. I feel I don't have adaquete knowledge to function. When this fear kicks in, I set aside all pressing problems in my day-to-day life -- finance, relationship, etc -- and focus on learning something. ("If I acheive fluency in this new language, then I will be prepared enough to face the world."). It gives me a skewed sense of competency. Learning a new theory isn't going to make me feel any better about that job interview, but the time spent learning that theory lets me be where I am comfortable (inside my head) and lets me ignore what I am uncomfortable with (interaction with the world).

So if you are questioning 5w4 or 4w5, ask yourself what your coping mechanisms are:

4 - copes by spending time alone with emotions, enhancing them
5 - copes by spending time alone with ideas, detaching from emotion

As an INFP this was confusing at first, because I'm "supposed" to identify more with the feeling side of things, but at my core I'm simply more comfortable in the realm of thought than the realm of emotion. I think fours long for experience/expression, whereas fives long for clarification/understanding - fours might claim to experience the "self" at a level more profound than other types, whereas fives might claim to experience "understanding" at a more profound level.
As a 5w4 my identity is constructed around my ideas, my knowledge, and my individuality. But when I look at the basic fears behind each type, I realize that I'm quite confidant in my identity and don't fear losing myself (4) nearly as much as I fear being ignorant (5) - my self esteem drops the most when feeling incompetent or stupid. As a cerebreal type, my self worth is directly tied in to my ideas and insight, and when I lack understanding I feel helpless or inferior.

The 5/4 divide has caused me tons of headaches in the past, but I finally resigned myself to the fact that they are almost equally balanced and that my heavy 4-wing means I live my unique identity in my understanding of the world.

I really recommend looking at the core types and seeing which resonates just a *little* bit stronger, which one keeps pulling you back. It seems the more you split hairs with this kind of thing the more overlaps you will find and (especially if you are a perfectionist) the more confused you'll become. Good luck!
 

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Is it possible to have both of these in your tritype?

I'm pretty sure I'd be 5w4 and then 9w1, but then if the third needs to be a 'heart' triad, I'd definitely fit 4 more than 2 or 3.

Either that, or I could maybe possibly fit 7w8, as a second 'head'.
 

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Is it possible to have both of these in your tritype?

I'm pretty sure I'd be 5w4 and then 9w1, but then if the third needs to be a 'heart' triad, I'd definitely fit 4 more than 2 or 3.

Either that, or I could maybe possibly fit 7w8, as a second 'head'.
Yes, and if you're a 5w4 and a 4w5 like me with 4w5 as second fix and strong w4... Things get confusing. Really confusing.
 

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@JXS, it might help if you figure out your instinctual variant first...that will help clarify how your enneatype is likely to present itself. my observation has been that the variant can sometimes make a person seem less like their actual type, or even more like their wing than their type (depending on the type), resulting in confusion. for instance, if you're 5w4 sx/so, you would appear quite 4ish, leading to questions like the one posed in the OP.

cf.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/9160-type-five-variant-stackings-2.html
and
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/9158-type-four-variant-stackings-3.html

and there's two great threads by kaleidoscope with a lot of descriptions (by different experts) of the type Four instinctual variants but i can't find them at this moment. if i can locate them, i will post the links to them here.

EDIT: found the threads - they are:

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/110177-instincts-descriptions-fours.html
and
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...691-instincts-descriptions-fours-part-ii.html
 

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I'm 5w4 and strongly identify with both descriptions, but I studied the types, not the wings, and found that on a default level I am five. It's important to remember that the ennegram studies the motivations behind what we do, what our driving forces and fears are. Take a look at these core descriptions:

Fours
- wants to be seen as gifted, intuitive, original, unique
- fear having no identity, no personal significance
- key motivation is wanting to express self/individuality
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as fundamentally different from others

Fives
- wants to be seen as intelligent, informed, knowledgable, perceptive
- fear being useless, helpless, or incapable.
- key motivation is wanting to possess knowledge and understanding
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as full of ideas/having something unusual or insightful to say

Another important thing to look at is the main insecurity of each type:

"In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings."

"Behind Fives’ relentless pursuit of knowledge are deep insecurities about their ability to function successfully in the world. Rather than engage directly with activities that might bolster their confidence, Fives “take a step back” into their minds where they feel more capable. Their belief is that from the safety of their minds they will eventually figure out how to do things—and one day rejoin the world."

I am a 5 because my most basic insecurities lie in the fear of participating in the real world. I feel I don't have adaquete knowledge to function. When this fear kicks in, I set aside all pressing problems in my day-to-day life -- finance, relationship, etc -- and focus on learning something. ("If I acheive fluency in this new language, then I will be prepared enough to face the world."). It gives me a skewed sense of competency. Learning a new theory isn't going to make me feel any better about that job interview, but the time spent learning that theory lets me be where I am comfortable (inside my head) and lets me ignore what I am uncomfortable with (interaction with the world).

So if you are questioning 5w4 or 4w5, ask yourself what your coping mechanisms are:

4 - copes by spending time alone with emotions, enhancing them
5 - copes by spending time alone with ideas, detaching from emotion


As an INFP this was confusing at first, because I'm "supposed" to identify more with the feeling side of things, but at my core I'm simply more comfortable in the realm of thought than the realm of emotion. I think fours long for experience/expression, whereas fives long for clarification/understanding - fours might claim to experience the "self" at a level more profound than other types, whereas fives might claim to experience "understanding" at a more profound level.
As an INTP 4w5, I think I can offer a different perspective. I've bolded the parts I relate to in Stolen's post. As an INTP, a wing 5, and having 5 in my tritype, I can relate very strongly to many aspects of the 5 descriptions--and actually they sound more like me than most 4 descriptions. However, the difference in my opinion becomes clearer when you really look into the motivations and see where these things come from.

For a long time I mistyped as a 5. It seemed to fit me almost perfectly--especially the fear of being overwhelmed by the world, of not being capable of participating in the real world. But I don't actually relate to that in the same way a 5 does. For the 5 it's a fear of being incompetent. 5's feel they don't have enough knowledge to function in the world. This is where it's different for me. I don't really have a strong fear of being helpless or incompetent. What I do have, which I mistakenly interpreted as a 5 issue, is the fear that because of my extremely introverted personality, I can't really function in the real world. For the 4 it's the feeling of being fundamentally flawed. I am generally not motivated to seek knowledge or gain competence. I am, however, very motivated to understand myself and why I'm so different from everyone else.
 

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Aren't 4's more romantic and irrational?
I don't think all Fours will necessarily see themselves as "romantic" in the common, every-day sense of the word. They are reactive types, which means they might be perceived as irrational by other types at times, but that's probably not how they view themselves.
 

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Is it true that fours more often doesn't want to perceive themselves as fours?

I think fours often don't see their hunger of feelings, attention, their tendency to jump between moods. Which isn't so surprising, because every type tend to treat their personality as normal. I think people who think of themselves as artistic or romantic have less trouble identifying themselves as fours, though here again they may mistype themselves as such. It's because of stereotypes (like that fives are scientists, fours are artists, twos are carers etc.).

Also, people who are or were depressed or have similar problems tend to wrongly identify themselves as fours.
 

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I don't think all Fours will necessarily see themselves as "romantic" in the common, every-day sense of the word. They are reactive types, which means they might be perceived as irrational by other types at times, but that's probably not how they view themselves.
I agree. This is a wider phenomenon, logical types don't see themselves as emotionless and cold, etc. Some characteristics are more visible 'from the other side of the street' ;)
 

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Fours and Fives share many traits in common and can easily be mistyped, especially when the wing is strong. Both types are frequently introspective, intellectually inclined and prone to withdrawal. The principle difference lies in the relationship that each type has to emotional experience. Fours generally know exactly how they are feeling and are generally comfortable dealing with emotional expressions from others. Fives, on the other hand, tend to detach from direct emotional experience under stress, and need to take time to process their emotional response. Finally, Fours are more inclined to self-revelation than are Fives, who generally find self-disclosure to be especially taxing."

"Fours and Fives can easily be mistyped by others, and Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the experience and expression of their emotional states. Fives tend to fear emotional overwhelm; Fours to welcome it.
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I have this problem since both 5w4 and 4w5 are present in my tritype. To confirm, would a sign of this and not the other way around be that I begin to become more emotional under stress (but keep it in).
Surprising, if your nickname is true, one would almost expect your core type to be 5w6.
 

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Surprising, if your nickname is true, one would almost expect your core type to be 5w6.
That's a pretty interesting observation. However, wouldn't 5w6 be more likely to take up real-life matters? My study is centered around creativity in using math. Like a kid playing with Legos, I like using math to make something new. I also see how the different pieces of a mathematical formula or concept is "beautiful", as I've read in a 5w4 description and found to be true. I try to see applications of math theory and its creative usage that I will like, with other things that I can use somewhere to create something.
 

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I read all the descriptions but never really figured this one out. Online tests say I'm a 4 (sometimes 9) but 5w4 sx/sp also seems to fit. I'm starting to think that 5 fits better since I need (lots of) time to process my emotions. Ironically, people claim that I read through them well...apparently, I just can't read myself.
 

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Fours
- wants to be seen as gifted, intuitive, original, unique
- fear having no identity, no personal significance
- key motivation is wanting to express self/individuality
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as fundamentally different from others

Fives
- wants to be seen as intelligent, informed, knowledgable, perceptive
- fear being useless, helpless, or incapable.
- key motivation is wanting to possess knowledge and understanding
- maintain their identity by seeing themselves as full of ideas/having something unusual or insightful to say

I'm an INFP, and lately I wonder wether I'm 4w5 as I assumed or 5w4.
The thing is, I identify more with the main want of 4: wanted to be seen as unique, than with that of 5:being seen as inteligent or informative is not that important to me. Although, I'm really interested in knowledge, albeit more in the sense of "understanding", understanding the underlying principles behind everything rather than factual information. Meanwhile, I really fear being "lost", "dissolved" into society by passive acomodtion or realizing that there was nothing special about me. So, I seem like a clear 4w5.

Yet... I don't really identify with the whole "knowing exactly what they feel" thing being said about 4s, and more with analysing my emotions in order to understand them better. :/
Maybe this whole "knowing exactly what they feel" is somewhat of an exageration about 4w5 ? Or maybe I don't exactly understand what is meant by that. :/

And no, I'm neither INFJ, I have no judging bone in my body.
 
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