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Discussion Starter #1
So, I am an INTJ in Myers-Briggs, and when I take Enneagram, I come out with 5 and 8 evenly matched. Supposedly, this doesn't exist, but I don't believe it. If the fundamental belief of 5 is that they aren't able to do things as well as others, and the fundamental desire of 8 is to control and not to be controlled, then those two work in tandem for me. I am inherently cautious and uncertain of success and aware of failure going into something. So I research it for hours, days, and even months until I know I have mastered it. This is stage 1.

However, I don't stay in this stage, (which I am guessing is the type 5). If someone wants to direct me or control me, I hate that at all times, but for tactical reasons I will tolerate it while I am not sure of where I stand. Once I am sure of where I stand, I 'know' I am invincible, and launch a campaign to take charge of everything. At this point, I will definitely not let others control me, and will not stop working at the situation until I am the dominant person in whatever I am doing. Once I know where I stand (and not before), I have almost absolute confidence in my own ability to win.

In sum, I start out by taking a step back so that I don't make a fatal mistake, do my research until I know I am going to win, and then start a campaign until I do win. I hate loss, I hate subordination, and I hate weakness; I can temporarily take those things if I have to in order to win in the long run.

5w8, or no?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
which means that I think I am 5, but am really an 8? Or does this mean something else? I haven't read much on it.
 

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which means that I think I am 5, but am really an 8? Or does this mean something else? I haven't read much on it.
I'm still new at this as well, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. Types can integrate or disintegrate based on stress/healthiness. A Type 5 that is "healthy" will take on attributes that make them appear 8-ish. They are still a 5, but can but sometimes act like an 8. Picking up some 8-related attributes helps a 5 overcome some of their more unhealthy habits. (The disintegration would go towards a 7 and is considered "unhealthy"). It would make sense you identify with 8, and is actually a good thing.
 

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I recommend you do research on the tritype. Everyone has a head fix, heart fix and gut fix - you will find you relate especially well with either 2, 3, or 4 too, but you probably go to your heart fix last because you relate better with 5 and 8. One of those two will be slightly stronger, which will be your first type.
 

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But why, then, do they say no to 5w8? How is 'integrates' different from 'with'?
Each Enneatype has 3 levels: the enneatype you are and both levels of "integration" (sort of ascending to a new level) and "disintegration" (descending to a level below). The thing is you can't be a 5 with an 8 wing; wings are only the Enneatypes adjacent to your type. With tritypes; you get a combination of 3 types: one for the Gut triad (types 8, 9 and 1), other for the Heart triad (2, 3 and 4) and another one for the Head triad (5, 6 and 7).

In your case; I see it as either you being a 5 who integrates to 8 or an 8 who disintegrates to 5. Now, if you knew your tritype; that could settle a lot of doubts; maybe you'd have an even 5 (Head) and 8 (Gut).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
So, I did some more reading on this, and took the long test, which told me that I am type 1 instead of the previous tests, which said 5 and/or 8. The thing is, it seems to me that the basic motivations of each of these are my basic motivations, but not always at the same time.

To elaborate, imagine that you are just this person who wants to think about things that matter, understand them, and then find out how this knowledge affects everything else in life so that the right thing can be done (and by right I mean right both morally and systemically/organizationally, because these are the same to me). You want to figure out a perfect, logical, total system that explains and classifies everything in life and in ideas, that is fair, and that is logically, objectively, unquestionably right. Once all of this is figured out, you want to take your holistic, total system, and you personally see it as your mission in life to do everything you can to achieve the implementation of your system. Ideally, you convince other people of it (through writing and conversation), and you personally would be in charge of implementing it.

If this isn't feasible (which it probably never is), or if your system isn't complete yet, the least you can do is to figure out what you personally should be doing (as if the system does exist, for you, even though it doesn't yet for others), and then to do it constantly. You always want to be working toward gaining the knowledge you need to perfect the system, but you also want to be in charge and in control wherever you are in the meantime.

That is basically how I am oriented, and that is how I view things. I have a big long range goal, but in the meantime whenever I am not in control, whenever I am not right, and whenever I am ignorant of something I want to know; those three things are not cool with me, and if I don't have any one of the three, recovering it becomes my main goal until this is accomplished.

I constantly analyze myself morally, mentally, or in my position within my university and jobs, unless I am thinking about a new idea that is relevant to something important. I always come up short in this analysis, and have therefore never acted satisfactorily. The only way for me to take my mind off this kind of analysis of myself or ideas is either for me to analyze the people around me, or I can also sedate myself by taking in pointless information (like listening to NPR news for hours at the same time as studying).

I have no hobbies or other interests of any kind except insofar as they affect the overall Plan to implement the system. If I study at university, or work at a career, the only reason I could do this is because it would help me to achieve the larger goal. I don't care about money or people or really anything else, intrinsically. I want everything explained, and until this happens, I haven't done what I am supposed to do.

What type does this best fit with? I think there is a good bit of INTJ there, but perhaps more of a 1?
 

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Try looking at the vices and fears of each potential type. These may be easier for you to differentiate between which types you lean towards in this manner.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Having done that, I can completely identify with the weaknesses of both 8 and 5; I don't recognize the weaknesses of 1. Perhaps I am simply a blended type? Directions to better resources would be great, if anyone has ideas.
 

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I also score evenly on 5 and 8 on tests though 8 edges out mostly. I don't feel particularly integrated or healthy in the enneagram meaning so this leads me to believe I'm either an 8 who has disintegrated to 5 for a really long time, or an 8-fixed 5. I relate relate more to the basic desire of the 8 more than 5 though.

I find it interesting that the fears of the 5 and 8 are nearly the same thing yet they have opposing reactions to it, so it makes sense that they are connected. Now that I think about it, that applies to any two connected types.

Having done that, I can completely identify with the weaknesses of both 8 and 5; I don't recognize the weaknesses of 1. Perhaps I am simply a blended type? Directions to better resources would be great, if anyone has ideas.
We're all blended types because apparently each of the nine types resides in a person, and three are prominent (one for each center: head, heart, gut), resulting in a tritype. From what you said on the previous page, it seems you have type 1 and 5 in you. That said, it doesn't help not knowing your fears and responses to stress.
 

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Fuck the tests, fuck the type descriptions, and really, fuck the one word/one phrase attributes of each type.

You need Claudio Naranjo's neuroses, reflection (god forbid), honest tracing of patterns, interaction with people of the types you're considering, and some time.

5w8 is not possible. I test as a 5, identify with the fears of 8 (okay, seriously, who the hell DOESN'T identify with the fears of type 8? Who the hell DOES want to be manipulated? I'm sick and tired of reading this), and have feelings like a 4. But my behavior is driven, without any ability control, by the fears of type 7. When you are honest and read Naranjo, you'll find similar conviction.
 

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So, I am an INTJ in Myers-Briggs, and when I take Enneagram, I come out with 5 and 8 evenly matched. Supposedly, this doesn't exist, but I don't believe it. If the fundamental belief of 5 is that they aren't able to do things as well as others, and the fundamental desire of 8 is to control and not to be controlled, then those two work in tandem for me. I am inherently cautious and uncertain of success and aware of failure going into something. So I research it for hours, days, and even months until I know I have mastered it. This is stage 1.

However, I don't stay in this stage, (which I am guessing is the type 5). If someone wants to direct me or control me, I hate that at all times, but for tactical reasons I will tolerate it while I am not sure of where I stand. Once I am sure of where I stand, I 'know' I am invincible, and launch a campaign to take charge of everything. At this point, I will definitely not let others control me, and will not stop working at the situation until I am the dominant person in whatever I am doing. Once I know where I stand (and not before), I have almost absolute confidence in my own ability to win.

In sum, I start out by taking a step back so that I don't make a fatal mistake, do my research until I know I am going to win, and then start a campaign until I do win. I hate loss, I hate subordination, and I hate weakness; I can temporarily take those things if I have to in order to win in the long run.

5w8, or no?
Character and Neurosis: An Integrative View: Claudio Naranjo MD: 9780895560667: Amazon.com: Books

The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul: Sandra Maitri: 9781585420810: Amazon.com: Books

The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues: Finding the Way Home: Sandra Maitri: 9781585427239: Amazon.com: Books

The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others In Your Life: Helen Palmer: 9780062506832: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: Facets of Unity: The Enneagram of Holy Ideas (9780936713144): A. H. Almaas: Books

http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Types-Using-Enneagram-Self-Discovery/dp/0395798671/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1378238241&sr=8-3&keywords=riso+and+hudson

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Enneagram-Practical-Guide-Personality/dp/0618004157/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1378238241&sr=8-4&keywords=riso+and+hudson

http://www.amazon.com/Enneatypes-Psychotherapy-Transcripts-International-Personality/dp/0934252475/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1378238274&sr=8-3&keywords=claudio+naranjo


Having read most of these books cover to cover and the better part of the rest, I stand convicted at 8w4. Without extensive research & years and years of investment in enneagram as a study, as well as a very solid background in psychology, I would not recommend touting a 5w8 label on this site. You will get your head bitten off. The tests are complete bullshit. Rule of thumb: learn the rules before you break them. Cheers. :kitteh:
 

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OP - think of the enneagram as a circle. The point of wings is if you had to drop someone at a point on the circle (some authors call the types POINTS), they will fit some region, not just discrete points of the circle. You can have a tritype with 5 and 8, but the point of the wings is that EACH of these can have other influences.

You have to study this stuff long enough to have an intuitive feel for why two types are placed nearby (I am more comfortable than I once was with this, but it's ongoing). Note as a simple example that the head, gut, and heart types are all placed next to each other, signifying that even if you are clearly image-driven, you may fall somewhere on that image strip.

More complicated to me is understanding other wings, like why 5 is near 4 and 1 is near 2, etc.
The transition points among triads are, however, marked by the trend that at the end of the head
triad is an id type 7, next to another, 8, and 1 goes to 2 (superego) and 4 to 5, ego. There
are various other things, like 4 and 5 being heavily associated with introversion as a means of
coping, five to secure feeling powerful and 4's inner self- fantasies regarding image.

As to changes in time, note that there are wings, integration points, levels of health, many things to help you view your growth less statically. Discovering your type is all about isolating what is driving these trends.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
So, your type is what drives you? If you are put under a lot of pressure, then the course you choose should be indicative of your type, taking into account the nature of the pressure and the reason you reacted to it the way you did?

For example, if you are so strongly motivated by something that it causes you to change your life course, would the force that was capable of motivating you like this be helpful in typing yourself? Or is the reason you were affected by the force more what we are looking for?

I don't really have the time to study Enneagram for hours and hours because I am interested in it so that I can get the gist of it and then apply it to understanding the weaknesses and strengths of my co-workers and family.
 

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From what I've read you seem a so/sp 5w6-1wX-3wX. 5 wants to unravel the universe, the 6 wing wants to construct the found knowledge into a tangible system. The determined 1 gut fix seeks unification, completion, perfection. The 3 heart fix gives you a sense for style, achievement, goal shooting, bigger, better, faster, stronger & also a measure of charm. Social variant works in systems, hierarchies, etc. They see the bigger picture & how everything ties in together, they also have a sense of connection to the universe & everything around them. They may gravitate to roles, purpose, duty, association, connection, friendship, family, etc.
 
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