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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In the last few months, I have watched about 5 people make the journey around the enneagram before settling on type 7, including myself. I've noticed a large proportion of these seem to be in the 784 tritype--I think we're different, not easy to type. Types 8 and 4 are prone to "dark" and "negative" feelings; 7s are supposed to try to avoid that. Sevens are supposed to be "happy-go-lucky" and "flippant"--8s and 4s are decidedly NOT.

What's incredibly frustrating, in my case, is that I'm NOT like a "typical" 7. The only way I figured it out at all came from realizing the way my mind worked. I have to look at the large-scale patterns in my life, not my day-to-day behavior, before I can see how much of it is really true. But it IS true--scarily true. Probably nobody'd be able to type me just by interacting with me. I'm not even sure my own family could do it. Hell, it took ME 12 years to figure it out, in no small part thanks to those whose journey has been very similar to mine.

I'd like to request that 784s share your experience here. If you are in the 784 tritype, what are you like on a daily basis? Do you think the "hyperactive"/"super-upbeat" type 7 descriptions are all that true for you? Was it easy to find your type?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I'll go first!

I suspect I'd be taken as a 4 or 5 or 8 by most other people. My own mother types me as a 4/5. And based on feedback from the general public, I come across as being profound, intimidating, "too serious" and "too quiet". (I'm also an ISTP, and that's common feedback for us.)

As a child, I had no friends because I was "weird"--and my pride, hurt feelings, and self-delusion that things would "get better" led me to ignore/attack those who might try to befriend me. I kicked ass in art projects, though, and actually successfully ran for office in the Latin Club. College followed a very similar pattern. Now I'm free of academia and have resolved to wander the planet.

I'm extremely visual--my mind looks like a Ridley Scott film. I'm always trying to beat the system, and my momma says I have a larcenous mind. Despite the fact that I always want more money, I don't care that much about it as a goal in life.

I've noticed that when I'm out in the world, I tend to rely more heavily on my 8w9 fix. Many strangers would probably take me for an 8w9 first--I'm quiet, I sit on the outside of the group and observe, sizing people up. I'm friendly when interacted with, and laid back. But apparently people find me quietly menacing, somehow, despite the fact that I'm more afraid of them than they are of me. (I can hardly feel the 4-ish parts of me when I'm like this.) But I'm still a mercurial 7 beneath my shell of reserve.

When I am/move emotionally closer to someone, I'm far more like a 4. 7w8 is not a type that "reaches out" easily, nor is 8w9. 1 doesn't help me, and neither does 5 (even healthy 5). I have to move to 4, and unfortunately, I start looking like an emotional head case with a major inferiority complex. I show embarassing amounts of vulnerability and "hurt feelings" and I know I'm often being totally inappropriate. It's like the 8w9 never existed! But I'm still a 7 who wants someone to uplift me, not pity me, look down on me, or acknowledge the fact that I *seem* to be failing miserably.

It's definitely awkward being (an introvert of) this tritype.
 

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ENTP 648 tritype The Truth Teller so~sx
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Oh, I wish someone else will reply too, it would be thrilling to know more about other Sevens with this tritype. I'm sure that cognitive functions and subtypes play their roles too though.

I'll share my own experience. On a daily basis, I am volatile. I can suddenly become very enthusiastic about something, jump and speak and laugh at the same time (literally or feeling like that), like an impulsive and joyful child. At those moments I wish to share my enthusiasm with others and feel easily frustrated and very much alone if I cannot.

However, I can easily become cranky, abrupt and impatient too. I can "forget" to say things 'nicely', I say what I think without much filtering and get feedback because of it - this happens quite often with my SO, I guess it's because I'm mostly myself with him. I've been told to sound very definite at times, like "it's my way or highway". I know I'm awful at adapting and conforming. And when I'm having dark moments, I'm grumpy, awful little miss marshwiggle. Mostly though I avoid things I don't want to do just to avoid that state, I hate being frustrated, I hate being forced to find myself surrounded by negative issues, problems and no choice but X.

So, perhaps partly due to my volatility, I did not find it easy to type myself. And I just read today that Sevens aren't particularly introspective. I had thought I was but I have concluded that I'm really not. I'm aware of my thoughts but not of my behavior or motives. Only when I have compared mine to others have I realized how some people seem to be so aware of their identity - mine is always changing, I am complex and volatile. It took me some time to recognize being an Ne-dom and it took me even longer to recognize the Seven tendencies and patterns in my life. If I had been more typical kind of Seven, the process might have been faster.

It's interesting to think how other people see me. After reading a few sentence long descriptions of the types, one friend of mine said I am mostly like Enneagram types 2, 4 and 7. Another friend of mine said I'm clearly an extrovert and thought I could be 7 (heh, she's a Nine by herself and I have inspired her many times to do something with me). Anyone in my family would tell I can be very bossy, I'm sure they would be thinking of types 1 and 8 especially. But I'm sure they also think that I'm active and multi-talented. At high school I was smart, flippant, usually withdrawn and only with my best friend but confrontational when annoyed (I hated high school and other students there). Nowadays people who meet me probably think I'm extroverted and complex, can be enthusiastic and can be moody. I'm not easy to read and would prefer it that way.

And I agree with you, this is an interesting pattern! Tritypes are important, 784 and for example 792 will be totally different types of Seven, especially if different subtypes.

I got inspired to investigate how Fauvres describe Seven with Eight and Four fixations, it was interesting. Btw, thanks @madhatter for bothering to have the descriptions here! I really appreciate it, I'm fond of tritype theories.


WIth 7 in charge it's an extremely hard to pin down type, that typically has no problems expressing the flamboyancy this tritype can bring...

478/784/847 Description: If you are the 478, you are intuitive, innovative and straight-forward. You want to be original, inspirational and self-possessed. A cutting-edge tracker of both your internal and external worlds, you are an unconventional, passionate master of solutions. Outwardly, you are confident but inwardly you are emotionally vulnerable. Life Mission: Your life mission is to find truth and communicate your findings. A true messenger, you are happiest when you use your creativity to find compassionate ways to understand yourself and empower others. Blind Spot: You can be so focused on your opinions, insights and what is new and profound that your freedom seeking nature can come across as arrogant, resistant, and/or uncooperative.

4-(7)-8 - The Reactive 7

Somewhat manic. Dramatic and somewhat confrontational. Uncontrolled emotions.

This tritype is the most creative type on the enneagram regardless of which type is in charge. This creativity may or may not have artistic talent but always has a sense of aesthetics. All three crave authenticity, depth and individuality,

784: Direct and intuitive 7. Most independent, original and creative 7. Can be moody. Most non-conforming, and intense 7.

the 748 is a messenger of the new...always ahead of their time...triple creative, innovative doers...no restrictions....must have freedom...original thinkers that follow their own muse and must get the message out.

784--visionary, powerful and aesthetically brilliant, always ahead of the curve

The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.
@holyrockthrower , I remember also you could relate to the truth teller label. All 4x8s seem to be truth tellers, just a bit different kind of truth tellers. And oh, I want to be my own authority!

Edit: One more thing about me, this is pretty irrelevant but I wish to share this anyway ^_^ I've been having a style course this spring and it's been great, I've learned a lot. Anyway, we had this final evening with a fashion show, there were a lot of other people (like selling/buying clothes, jewelry etc.) too. I had volunteered to be one of the models, I wanted to experience something like that and it was an amazing experience ^_^
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So, perhaps partly due to my volatility, I did not find it easy to type myself. And I just read today that Sevens aren't particularly introspective. I had thought I was but I have concluded that I'm really not. I'm aware of my thoughts but not of my behavior or motives. Only when I have compared mine to others have I realized how some people seem to be so aware of their identity - mine is always changing, I am complex and volatile. It took me some time to recognize being an Ne-dom and it took me even longer to recognize the Seven tendencies and patterns in my life. If I had been more typical kind of Seven, the process might have been faster.
My identity is always changing irl. I thought I was introspective, too, because I spend a lot of time alone and contemplate my life and ask myself why I do the stuff that I do...but I'm afraid of the answers, so I never carry the probing that far. I've tended to say things like "the subconscious is bullshit" and "that psychobabble stuff is interesting...but not real"...having accepted myself as a 7, I can see that I was badly wrong. One of the reasons I always rejected type 7 was because I don't see that much of 7s unhealthy behavior in me, and that's probably because I don't reflect on my actions all that much. I can see it much more now that I have become aware of my pattern.

@holyrockthrower , I remember also you could relate to the truth teller label. All 4x8s seem to be truth tellers, just a bit different kind of truth tellers. And oh, I want to be my own authority!
Not just the label! This:

If you are 468, you are intuitive, inquisitive and direct. You want to be original, certain and straight-forward. You are highly sensitive, track inconsistencies and are like the ‘canary in the coal mine’ calling off unspoken agendas, motives and emotions. You are also very intense and can at times be rebellious and emotionally reactive. Your life mission is to identify what is insincere and not what it appears to be, and alert others of potential hazards. A whistleblower, you are happiest when you are in a position to help others from being misled. You can be so focused on what can go wrong and on potential hazards that you miss how controlling you become and your impact on others and what is truly important and meaningful.
Pretty much everything in bold. I've noticed the 7w8s have the reputation of being brutally honest and value critical thinking and seem to reject stupid ideas. I guess that part of me was more drawn to the 468 description than the 478. I can definitely see that I've got the 478 blindspot, though...I never would have guessed. XD

I think cognitive functions, wings, and instincts really do play a huge role here. So alike...and yet so different. I'd love to hear from more of you guys!
 

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I suppose having a 4-fix makes me more concerned with self-realization, about discovering my inner power and expressing it in the world at large. I seek both to know and to consume; I want the inner me to realize itself in the outer environment, to expand, grow, and control its own destiny. Being Sx-first magnifies these tendencies; it makes me very in-tune with who I am... and very in-touch with where I want to go, and how to get there.

So, the 4-fix adds the search for self-realization, 7 and 8 add desire and will, respectively.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I found this article and this article in regards to Steve Jobs, who has been typed as a 784 as well. I really see a lot of myself in him, actually...and he's nearly impossible to type.

And although I am wary of typing by physical characteristics, I have to admit I look like him somehow. Particularly the blazing eyes.
 

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I can totally relate to the truth telling, but in an unorthodox way, I always try to tell something that seems like a lie, but is really truth.
 

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Yesss!! Thanks for making this thread! I swear I was thinking of making one just like it today. I will respond in full when I can.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'd also like to share an experience I had with a 784 boss I once had. (I just realized that this is what she was last night; I had previously been thinking she was an 8 or 1).

I tell you, 784s must make the most evil bosses on the planet. Nothing I did could possibly please her. If I did my job thoroughly, she'd gripe about how slow and inefficient I was. If I worked quickly, she'd rag on me for half-assing the job. So much stress it wasn't funny anymore.

She told me to take out the trash, and as I started wheeling the trash out the door, she shouted at me (in a super-abrasive manner), "Why haven't you swept the floor?!" I was always at the mercy of her ever-changing mercurial whims--she'd change her mind about what I should do literally every 30 seconds, then get mad at me for either 1. not finishing the first job or 2. not immediately dropping everything and following her command. It was like you couldn't win! Once had she fixated on me as being a bad employee, nothing I could do could possibly convince her otherwise. Consequently, she fired me within a week, and due to loopholes found a way not to pay me the money she owed me. She was probably a low-functioning 7, though and--if the rumors are true--also bipolar.

The worst thing about this is that I'm now a teacher, and I know I've taken a similar attitude toward my students. I have no managerial skills whatsoever. I don't seem to be able to control this. I kept thinking, "Damn, I sound like my evil boss." NOW I KNOW WHY THIS IS.

I'll say this, though. People always seem to overlook our abrasiveness and stick with us through thick and thin. What is it about us that inspires that?
 

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I've noticed a large proportion of these seem to be in the 784 tritype--I think we're different, not easy to type. Types 8 and 4 are prone to "dark" and "negative" feelings; 7s are supposed to try to avoid that. Sevens are supposed to be "happy-go-lucky" and "flippant"--8s and 4s are decidedly NOT.
But of course! I can be plenty dark and negative; I prefer flawed and gritty things to shiny and perfect. I AM very flawed too (which is, according to many stereotypes, a very un-Sevenish statement).

I'd like to request that 784s share your experience here. If you are in the 784 tritype, what are you like on a daily basis? Do you think the "hyperactive"/"super-upbeat" type 7 descriptions are all that true for you? Was it easy to find your type?
I thought I'm a 4 or 5 of sorts, initially, because I'm usually calm, silent, a bit aloof and iconoclastic. However, my thinking patterns and general attitude are way more 7-ish. I live and breathe pure, unadultered creativity (the 458 tritype description states "the darkest tritype", and the 478 is "the most creative and in need of freedom"; I can relate to both, but I prefer being light and creative rather than dark and dull).

My mental landscape is a place marked by contrast and intensity; it changes with every single nanosecond. Hell, I change with every single nanosecond. When I was at high school, my literature teacher said that my writing was top-notch, but my style changed constantly throughout the essay, being playful and witty in one sentence, somber and reflective in the next one.

My biggest troubles are perseverance, commitment and cooperation. I'm always looking for novelty (and therefore, I tend to be quickly bored with current activities or ideas) and my need for independence verges on obsession.
 
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Ace of Spades
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Alright, here we go.

First off, I massively misunderstood Type 7 at first glance. It sounded awesome, but it didn't sound like me. I made several errors when I dismissed it. Firstly, I thought "spontaneous" meant totally unplanned, but the dictionary definition states, "Having a natural, and uninhibited manner". This is very true for me. Even still, it turns out that Sevens are centered around planning. Not necessarily fulfilling their plans, but thinking about the future. This greatly applies to me. I definitely don't accomplish everything I plan, because there's just so much I want to do! I also don't feel guilty about not getting to things, because there is just so much wonder in the world, and priorities win out.

Secondly, I misunderstood what Extroversion was. There are so many definitions out there, and under the MBTI one, I felt like an Introvert. I'm extremely independent and introspective, and I'm not typically concerned with others. However, I am stimulated by both the inner and outer worlds. I can't stay cooped up in my head for long before I long to explore, to discover, to interact with the world. Sevens are independent types. Even as extroverts, they are more concerned with ideas, activities, excitement, and less so with people.

Thirdly, I misunderstood the idea of escaping from boredom. I thought, "I never get bored! There's so much to do and contemplate!" I didn't realize that boredom referred to "stagnation", and stagnation is something I greatly fear. Being deprived, restricted, disabled, limited, stuck, constrained from pursuing my passions, is torture. Freedom is my desire, freedom from worry, obligation, negativity, and most of all, fear. I want to see all there is to see, try all there is to try. That's the best way to truly know something.

I have "too many" interests, but I don't think it's too many at all. I'd rather be well-versed in many things than expert in few. I'm scared to get too much into one thing, as my whole mind-frame and world-view will be affected by it. I'm decent at piano, violin, flute, percussion, bass guitar, and DJ-ing. I'm "fluent" in sports such as figure skating, skiing, and rollerblading. I'm interested in just about any abstract topic there is. My university education covers areas of chemistry, physics, computer science, and mathematics. I've been on work terms in many different locations, including the Swiss Alps. I ultimately want to live in as many places as I can, to really experience the culture and surroundings.

Ironically, I do fit the happy-go-lucky hyperactive enthusiast image. However, there is so much more to it, and I feel that this applies to all Sevens, whether or not they show any enthusiasm at all. I do not understand why people associate it with being superficial, fake, or lacking depth. It's a huge insult to see that erroneous judgment be made. It's not about how happy we actually are, or how great our lives are. We have struggles just like everybody else, but we look forward. We have faith that things will work out, and we don't dwell because dwelling is unnecessary pain. People are complex and dynamic. Sevens are one of the most versatile types of the Enneagram. Our vast experience and breadth brings about a wisdom about the world, a view of the big picture. As head types, we seek to understand, like Fives and Sixes. We seek it through involvement and variety.

I don't attribute my happiness and love of life to being a Seven. That's my own personal experience. I was depressed from the ages of 11 to 17, suffered anxiety, phobias, severe anger problems, and family problems. I was strongly attracted to dark things, to the mysterious, the melancholic, and the bizarre. Those things are a part of life, and as long as I maintain a certain distance from fear and negativity, I can enjoy them. I have grown tremendously since that time, gaining strength and the ability to maintain positivity. I don't think that's type-related, I think mental health, spiritual growth, and personal development are entirely up to the individual. An unhealthy Seven might appear as content as a healthy Seven, but they will most likely be involved in escapism.

I never thought I would say it, but 748 is an amazing fit. I've considered at least a dozen other tritypes, and nothing felt quite right. I've read every one of the archetype descriptions, and 478 describes me freakishly well. I stand out and always have. I am bold, self-confident, playful, and excited about everything. I want to remain youthful forever, while developing maturity and wisdom. I'm stubborn and I do my own thing. I can't count the number of times I've gotten in trouble, sometimes by accident because I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I'm extremely stubborn and I don't back down. I learn things the hard way, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm reactive, but after a relatively short outburst, I try and make light of the situation. My 8 side shows no weakness, and my 4 side wants authenticity. More than anything, I want to be truthful and share with the world. I like the "Messenger" archetype, I like the idea of being a master of both inner and outer worlds. Despite being a "Thinker", I want to be an inspiration. I want to spread knowledge and wisdom to the world, without being judged. I want to lead by example, not by force. I want to be seen, noticed, heard, without being obnoxious. I want to catalyze change, without worrying about logistics or tedious tasks. I want everyone to experience freedom and to learn to be as open-minded as possible.

Being an NTJ 7 is a little different. The 8 certainly enforces the Te, and the 4 enforces Ni and Fi. Together, the tritype feels complete. There are definite "conflicting" dynamics among the three types, and I think that just makes for an interesting and complex individual. My interests include anything from meditation and yoga, to exploring, to raving. Everything I do has purpose and meaning. I don't think it's fair for people to assume that "having fun" means you are meaninglessly wasting time. Every experience I have, I learn something valuable. Everything "fun" is meaningful and has it's useful place in the experiment of life.


Damn, see what I did there? Everything I've said so far is positive and self-absorbed. I just have a natural tendency to gloss over the negatives =P It's funny how I realized this in my Type Me thread.

There is just so much more I could say. Though I feel like this is more than enough for one post. Heheh ^__^ I leave with a Type 7 description that I actually found decent:
Sevens - the enneagram ...info from the underground

Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Edison manifest the inventive side of the type Seven personality and many inventors have, in fact, been Sevens.

Famous artists include Paul Gauguin, Salvador Dali and Francis Bacon. The art of Sevens tends to be vibrant and expansive - glittering surfaces with intimated depths.
 

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Ace of Spades
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*Reserved for a tl;dr of the above monstrosity*

tl;dr: Fuck bitches, get money.

Edit: I am running out of time to tl;dr this. Been studying all day. Probably won't get to it, oooopie =P I'll just say: Wow, I didn't mean to write that much and miss the point about talking about the tritype. Though I've been meaning to make a post like that for a while, so I'm glad I did for my own reference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Damn, see what I did there? Everything I've said so far is positive and self-absorbed. I just have a natural tendency to gloss over the negatives =P It's funny how I realized this in my Type Me thread.
I always feel that way about my posts, too.

Know what? I'm glad your post is self-absorbed! I always feel like I gain something from hearing others' personal stories, which may be why I always tell mine.

A million thanks.
 

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I have "too many" interests, but I don't think it's too many at all. I'd rather be well-versed in many things than expert in few. I'm scared to get too much into one thing, as my whole mind-frame and world-view will be affected by it. I'm decent at piano, violin, flute, percussion, bass guitar, and DJ-ing. I'm "fluent" in sports such as figure skating, skiing, and rollerblading. I'm interested in just about any abstract topic there is. My university education covers areas of chemistry, physics, computer science, and mathematics. I've been on work terms in many different locations, including the Swiss Alps.
Wow. You're even more of a "jack-of-all-trades" than a certain friend of mine who I type as a Seven. His hobbies include swing dancing, playing flute, banjo, and percussion, and playing Ultimate Frisbee. He types himself as an ENFJ in the Myers-Briggs system. I don't think he knows much about cognitive functions--instead, he goes by the four dichotomies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Secondly, I misunderstood what Extroversion was. There are so many definitions out there, and under the MBTI one, I felt like an Introvert. I'm extremely independent and introspective, and I'm not typically concerned with others. However, I am stimulated by both the inner and outer worlds. I can't stay cooped up in my head for long before I long to explore, to discover, to interact with the world. Sevens are independent types. Even as extroverts, they are more concerned with ideas, activities, excitement, and less so with people.
Thanks for saying this. I just spent the last decade thinking I was an ISTP, when I am clearly and truly an ENTP. I didn't think ISTP fit me "all that well", but knew I was "introverted" and therefore didn't bother checking the EXXX descriptions. I just sort of dismissed the Meyer-Briggs as crap.

I see you are sp/sx. That's the same as me, and I believe that orientation skews my scores on standard MBTI tests. Sp/sx would appear to match the description of "introvert"--sp can be quite inward looking and inclined to build a nest to retreat to, and sx is focused on one-on-one interactions. Hence, the standard MBTI description of "introvert" applies to me; it is for this reason that I now favor an analysis of cognitive functions, with an emphasis on how they support one another in our daily functioning.

I would still consider myself "introverted" socially, although I do draw my ideas and inspiration from the rest of the world and ultimately need to outwardly process the conclusions I come to. I believe this is exactly why I figured myself out within 4 months of joining PerC despite the fact that I'd drawn no conclusions after studying alone for 12 years.

Thirdly, I misunderstood the idea of escaping from boredom. I thought, "I never get bored! There's so much to do and contemplate!" I didn't realize that boredom referred to "stagnation", and stagnation is something I greatly fear. Being deprived, restricted, disabled, limited, stuck, constrained from pursuing my passions, is torture. Freedom is my desire, freedom from worry, obligation, negativity, and most of all, fear. I want to see all there is to see, try all there is to try. That's the best way to truly know something.
I am nearly impossible to bore myself--escaping boredom was something about the 7 descriptions I could never understand. Nothing is boring! But "stagnation" is my worst nightmare, and not exactly something I directly associate with "boredom" per se.
 

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I'm not quite sure about my tritype, but I am a 7w8 and I definitely have some four tendencies.

I have always been fascinated by the dark, the ugly, and the melancholy. It feels like it makes me a more complete person. For example, I love autumn, when the leaves are down and it's cool and wet and dark outside. I like to wander around outside then, and merge with the atmosphere. It feels like incorporating something adverse to me into my self, and that is an awesome feeling.

Sevens are often described as wanting to be happy, which is both to broad and to specific a description. After all, everybody wants to be happy - it just means something different for everyone. On the other hand, happiness is generally associated with an upbeat attitude and not with somberness. I think that the more serious sevens are often not recognized as sevens, which results in flawed descriptions, which in turn results in serious sevens not to be recognized as sevens.

Anyway, I've also always been very protective and I take other people very seriously. I can be upbeat and silly, but usually I'm rather sedate, and I always have myself under control. I crave intensity; dullness for me is less lack of something to do and more lack of an intense feeling toward something.

Though I mistyped myself at first, it was mostly because I had been living as a co-narcissist for much of my life - that is, I suppressed my personality and desires in order to be able to live with my narcissistic parents. In the beginning, I got high scores on five (because I'm an INTJ) and on nine. I thought I was a nine, because I was used to complying with my parents instead of acting out my own wishes, and it massively frustrated me to think that this was just how I naturally was. I reexamined the Enneagram later, and finally admitted to myself that I was a seven. That gave me a massive emotional high for several days. It still is a great feeling to read how other sevens see themselves, because I can identify so much.


I just sort of dismissed the Meyer-Briggs as crap.
:laughing: When I first thought that I was a nine, I also just dismissed the whole Enneagram system. What a seven reaction!
 

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I have always been fascinated by the dark, the ugly, and the melancholy. It feels like it makes me a more complete person. For example, I love autumn, when the leaves are down and it's cool and wet and dark outside. I like to wander around outside then, and merge with the atmosphere. It feels like incorporating something adverse to me into my self, and that is an awesome feeling.
I love autumn too! I love the fall colors and aromas; the cool dryness of the wind as it sweeps up the dead leaves into the air. I like to carry autumn -- the spirit of autumn -- around with me, inside of me wherever I go, no matter what time of year it is. It doesn't feel "adverse" to me, but the rest of what you wrote I can relate to.
 

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I suspect Lord Byron was a 478, though probably not a core 7.
I've seen him typed mostly as 4, and once as 8 (although I'm not sure where, I can't find it now).
 
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