[Octopus1]

Hi! Let me tell you the story of these two and how their problems began:
She is a 7w8 (ENTP) girl and she is very confident, outgoing and eccentric.
He is a 5w4 (INFJ) guy and he is a little insecure, shy and tame.
They both are very intelligent, non-conformists, eloqent and creative. They are both young, and very attractive. They fell in love with each other almost in an instanttt. The chemistry between them is always BURNING. Even the blind can see that. They are both fascinated with each other and find each other very inspiring.

However, problems started once the 5w4 guy realised that "he was not the only one". The 7w8 girl is younger than him and she just doesn't want to settle down. She is seeing other people and the thought of never having something new and excieting was terrifying to herr. She thinks it is perfectly fair because she let him know from the very beginning that she didn't want a relationship. She thinks it is perfectly fair because she isn't cheating on him. They are not a couple. Her deffinitions of "love" are not on a physical level. She loves him like she always did and she was never in love with any of those other guys she was seeing. She dosn't think that the fact she is sleeping with other people is betraying the 5w4 guy; what she thinks a betrayal would be is if she fell in love with other people (and she didn't) and if she didn't let the 5w4 guy KNOW what she was doing.

The 5w4 guy is devastated. He felt betrayed. It means SO MUCH to him that she says she was never in love with anybody else, but, still... He is demisexual. She was his first EVERYTHING. And she is his everything. Yes. It is true: she didn't hide from him that she was seeing others. She never lied to him. But just the fact that he was "SHARING" her was unbearable for him. He has so much to offer to her. He is 100% dedicated to her. Anyway, he never tells her to stop doing what she is doing because he doesn't want to control her. He wants her to be happy, but her being happy automatically destroys him.

The bottom line is: SHE LOVES HIM, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE in that.
It is in her nature as a 7w8 to do that, and it is in his nature as a 5w4 to worry when that happens.

How can she let him know how much he means to her and is there a way that a 5w4 can understand that?
Please, write everything you know about this combination and how they can work it out.

Thank you so much!!!

 

[g_w]

I believe the 7w8 an the 5w4 are coming from different places regarding the sexual act and its significance.

Not just broad brush, more like a paint roller or spray gun here, but there are generally five types of attitudes towards sex:

0) sex? what's that? (rare)
1) do I *have* to? (rare)
2) sex is a sacred bond between two people, the consummation of their love, never to be shared with anyone else. It's "our treasure".
3) sex is a bodily function, lots o' fun, and btw, it's part of this complete breakfast. Of course you'll share it with the one you love,
like you share the rest of yourself.
4) nymphomania / satyriasis (rare)

and the wild card

"will that be Visa or MasterCard"? (note that there are two flavors of this one, the payer and the payee...)

It sounds like the 7w8 is a type 3 and the 5w4 is a type 2 on the above scale.

The difficulty, to the 5w4, is the dilemma: if she doesn't "mean it" when she's having sex with them, how can I have any assurance that she "means it" when in bed with me? Alternatively, if she "means it" with *any* of them, how can I have any assurance that I matter more to her than _he_ did?

The only assurance which would work with the 5w4 would be one of the following:

exclusivity with him for the duration of the relationship

or

the 7w8 willing to explore kinks and/or fetishes with the 5w4 which she has never done with anyone else; but the problem here is to convince him that such is true, and is not a white lie designed to keep him

There are other solutions but they involve drastic lifestyle changes for one or the other.

Oh, one other point. Men tend to be hard-wired to want exclusivity in their woman, more than women want it in their man.
In particular, a man's sexual history doesn't bother a woman quite as much: her view might be stereotypically expressed as, "You've had the rest; now try the BEST!" meaning, "he's with *me* now, so that must mean he wants me more."

A woman wants a man to be exclusive, yes, but is much less bothered by sexual infidelity than *emotional* infidelity -- if a man has an emotional affair with another woman, that tends to hurt the woman much more than a one-night-stand ("honestly, babe, she meant *nothing* to me...") This is consistent with your statements that "you told him you didn't want a relationship" and "you're not in love with the other men.

To get a good first take on *his* feelings, imagine him telling you of emotional commitment to other women -- but he swears to you that "they never touched each other". The kind of searing, stabbing, throbbing, jealous pain over that, is what a woman's physical infidelity does to a type 2 guy. Type 3 guys don't particularly care, as they don't necessarily equate sex with love.

 

[Octopus1]

Is it possible that you are being SO ignorant and doing that stereotypical shit here? "Women like this, women like that..." Generalising all the women...? REALLY?! Oh, and, BTW it seems like I am busted, it IS me. The 7w8 girl is me!
And if that is your question, I wouldn't give a flyin' f if anybody "emotionally cheated" on me.
Unfortunately for you, that is not a question here.
How can you be so sexist and put all women under the same category. Don't you see that emotions are the least of my preorities? I assume that majority of women act that way, but CERTAINLY not me.
And "the 7w8 sounds like a 3"? R u kidding me. That is just the TYPICAL BY THE BOOK 7W8 thing.
If you want to post here I suggest that you focus on this PARTICULAR SITUATION of the 7w8 girl and a 5w4 guy. Obviously the "typical" gender roles don't apply to this case. @g_w

 

[POLYHEDRON]

You guys don't talk much about your relationship, do you?

 

[Octopus1]

Well, actually, we are not in a relationship. I have this fear of commitement and setteling down. But I love him. @Comatose
Can you give us some tips on how to work it out? :wink:

 

[POLYHEDRON]

Well, I can try..
@Octopus1
I can understand your fear of commitment etc, I will try not to use 'stereotypes' yet.
The fact of the matter is, You love him, and based on the OP, I'm pretty sure he loves you too.

He is insecure, shy and tame, quite opposite of you actually. Insecurities would in some ways cause us people to latch on to another person who either loves us or understands us.

I wouldn't blame any of you guys for your reactions. You two have to compromise in a relationship.
Though, you mentioned you're not willing to be in a relationship even if you love him, not yet at least.

Well, have you spoken to him about your fear of commitment?

I understand the want to be experimental, and you may see other people, but for someone rather closed, he would only focus on you and him. Though don't you think the experience would be a lot more sensational and exciting if you opened up to him about your wants?
I'm not him, I won't really consider what his thoughts would be, but he seems to treat this love of his to be rather private and focused.
He would want you for himself only and in a way, by experimenting with other people, it would affect his self esteem. As much as you tell him you love him, he would still feel the same way, even worse. Love isn't about sex, but he might see it as a sacred act. A rather intimate emotional connection, which he might desperately seek.

I'm not siding anyone.
It is not wrong to experiment around.

He is sensitive. Did you ever ask him on his definition of love?
That would be a better way to settle this.
You should question him. Ask him how he sees this relationship to be.
Why he isn't comfortable with it.
Two of you just open up in a rather detached manner, just for the sake of understanding each others perspective.
Now, but if he doesn't open up, then you can't blame yourself for anything.

I can see the 7w8 and 5w4 reasonings clearly.
Personally I think I could be a 5w4, or the other way around.
All you guys got to do, is slow down, and talk, alone. Don't talk to get points through, talk to understand.
I see this as an issue of perception.
You will never know if you understand something unless you question it.

Hope it helped

 

[counterintuitive]

It doesn't sound like either the 7 or the 5 are in the wrong here. The 7 was upfront about everything, and the 5 still felt betrayed. That just means that the 5 wants something different out of a relationship than the 7 can offer. It sounds like a mutual incompatibility.

Btw, as a fellow 7w8, I agree with you. I wouldn't see your behavior as betrayal - that would be if you were actually in love with other people, not just sleeping with them. And even then, I'm not decidedly against polyamory if everything is in the open. In general, when everything is in the open, it doesn't make sense to feel betrayed as your 5 does, so I'd guess either his feeling of betrayal isn't reasonable and/or possibly you weren't as open as you claim. (Not accusing you of anything, though, since idk.)

 

[Octopus1]

@counterintuitive Thank you SO much. Almost all the people I have told this were saying how I am wrong. It is so refreshing to finally hear an opinion from someone who is notoverly sensitive. Who better to know that, than a fellow 7w8! God bless you! :win

I only love HIM. I don't give an F about those other guys. I never lied to him about anything and I didn't hide anything from him EVER. That makes my conscious CLEAN. I think that he should respect my honesty, the fact that I LOVe ONLY HIM and he should respect my fear of comittement.
To be fair, he never critisized me of anything, he was never confrontational, but I can see how hurt he is. His mother told me. His friend told me. I even found his diary once and I was really sad that I learned I have caused him pain... He is always saying how it means so much to him that he knows that I love ONLY him. I guess he will stop careing about the "physical thing" over time.
Thank you once again.

 

[Octopus1]

His definition of love is super-nonmaterialistic and pure. He says that he can totally live without sex (he is demisexual, afterall and demisexuals are sub-type of asexuals). I am, on the other hand, sex-obsessed. :laughing: A little joke there, but it's not far from the truth... Since sex is so not important to him, I don't see a reason why her cares of me seeing other guys. He really ISN'T CONTROLLING and her respects my fear of comittement. He knows that I had problems with jealous dates in the past and he was always protecting me. He never confronted me and he has been nothing but sweet to me. And therefore it hurts me to know that I am causing him so much pain. He doesn't talk about it, BTW. But people close to him (friends, family) had told me. I have even found his diary (which I thought was really cute) and I learned how broken he is. I wish if he just didn't care about me sleeping with other people.

My definition of love is the same as his. Love is sacred and once in a lifetime. All those guys I sleep with HAVE NOTHING TO DO with anything that is love-related in my life.
Since our definitions of love are the same, I don't think it should be a problem. I don't think he actually minds me having sex with other guys. I think he is affraid that I might stop LOVING him. I will assure him that it won't happen.

I hope I made everything clearer now.
Thank you for your advice @Comatose.

 

[Cataclysm]

It sounds to me like you want to eat the whole cake and keep it. What you need to do is either cut this guy out of your life so he doesn't have to put up with you sleeping around or commit to him and get stimulation from other things. Or you can try to keep the cake and eat it but that would mean that you'd have to somehow convince your boyfriend to be OK with what you're doing, which seems highly unlikely.

Who do you think is/would be making the biggest sacrifice? He who has to put up with seeing the person he loves with different people, or you who wouldn't be able fuck whoever you'd like?

 

[g_w]

Is it possible that you are being SO ignorant and doing that stereotypical shit here? "Women like this, women like that..." Generalising all the women...? REALLY?! Oh, and, BTW it seems like I am busted, it IS me. The 7w8 girl is me!
And if that is your question, I wouldn't give a flyin' f if anybody "emotionally cheated" on me.
Unfortunately for you, that is not a question here.
How can you be so sexist and put all women under the same category. Don't you see that emotions are the least of my preorities? I assume that majority of women act that way, but CERTAINLY not me.
And "the 7w8 sounds like a 3"? R u kidding me. That is just the TYPICAL BY THE BOOK 7W8 thing.
If you want to post here I suggest that you focus on this PARTICULAR SITUATION of the 7w8 girl and a 5w4 guy. Obviously the "typical" gender roles don't apply to this case. @g_w

Here's a couple of more items to throw into the pot.

Is the 7w8 girl, the first one that the 5w4 guy has had a serious relationship with, or, the first one he has had sex with?
Did he know of her past before falling for her, or before sleeping with her? How did he find out of her other sexual partners?

Oh, one other question...this will be somewhat tricky to ask while still phrasing it specifically.

At what point did the 7w8 and 5w4 have the "define the relationship" talk -- when the 7w8 said she wasn't looking for a "relationship" ? Before or after ...or, God forbid, during! :shocked: the first sex with the 5w4...? Had the 5w4 fallen for her already?

And is the 5w4 hoping against hope to *kindle* a relationship? ...or did a relationship happen (these things occur organically, sometimes seemingly against our express wishes) after the talk?

Thanks, btw, for posting all this. I hadn't imagined it was possible for a 5w4 INTJ to *be* demisexual; or rather, I can: their sexuality is like a dormant seed, waiting for fertile soil and watering to grow into a mighty Redwood Tree. :ninja:

 

[counterintuitive]

I only love HIM. I don't give an F about those other guys. I never lied to him about anything and I didn't hide anything from him EVER. That makes my conscious CLEAN. I think that he should respect my honesty, the fact that I LOVe ONLY HIM and he should respect my fear of comittement.
To be fair, he never critisized me of anything, he was never confrontational, but I can see how hurt he is. His mother told me. His friend told me. I even found his diary once and I was really sad that I learned I have caused him pain... He is always saying how it means so much to him that he knows that I love ONLY him. I guess he will stop careing about the "physical thing" over time.

Why do you think he's going to stop caring about "the physical thing" over time? If he's hurt by "the physical thing", it sounds like that's part of the terms of a relationship, for him: that his partner not have other sexual partners.

A lot of people say they are OK with an open relationship but deep down are not OK with it - it sounds like that's the case with your 5, especially since he never confronted you himself, and you found out from other people.

I think if you want to stay with him, you either need to stop your actions... or continue to sleep with other people but then acknowledge that he is going to be hurt by your actions. I don't see a third option where you can have it both ways.

I still stand by what I said earlier: there is nothing wrong with multiple partners if you are open about it, as you are. I'm only saying that if you want to stay with this particular guy, and you do not want him to feel betrayed by you, then you cannot also have other partners. It is a mutual incompatibility problem. His feelings of betrayal may be unreasonable, but you cannot reason other people out of their feelings. Good luck.

 

[nburns]

As Cataclysm said, you are trying to have your cake and eat it, too. Honestly, if I was advising him, I'd tell him to cut you loose. He is clinging to you and it's not good for him.

 

[Octopus1]

Well, since he is demisexual, it is normal to assume that he is kinda of a late bloomer. I was his first kiss AND the first person he had sex with. We were never in a relationship.
We met for the first time when I was 15. We have never seen each other before. Honestly, it was kinda like love at first sight for both of us. I was really physically attracted to him and I remember that he made such a remarkable first impression on me. I am not sure if it was really LOVE what I felt immediately, but it was certainly something I have never felt before. He was older than me. He was SO SEXY, he had sky-high charisma. We began to talk and I saw how much of a gentleman he is. He respects women. I realised how SMART he is. I have never had such an intellectual connection with anybody before. After all, you know what they say: ENTP and INFJ are soul mates. (I saw you wrote that he was INTJ. No, you misread: he is an INFJ. He is DeFINITELY and inFj ). We were really fascinated by each other.
We had our second date the next day (we have seen each other 3 days in a row ) and at the end of the date, he asked me if we could kiss and I thought it was so cute. And we kissed and it was AMAZING! I mean the kiss itself was a bit awkward, but the feeling was amazing. He said "I love you" after the kiss. I saw that hs eyes were lit up and he was SO happy, but I didn't know what to respond and kissed him again. After that he asked me if I will be his girlfriend. And that's when we had "the talk". It wasn't really that nice to ruin that moment for him, but I had to do it.

I explained that I don't want a relationship, but I still wanna see him. He was a little sad. I could see. But he understood me. We were kissing the rest of the night. We saw ech other after a couple of days. We were going on dates for a long time 6 monthes without having sex. He should respect me that I waited for so long. He was so "affraid" when the topic of sex would come up, that I feel like he did agree to do it, just so he won't dissapoint me. When that night came he was really anxious and scared. He didn't like it. I asked him if he was sure about wanting to do this and he said yes. We did it. He didn't like it. I thought that it was ok. Anyway, the next day he cried and said that he wasn't ready for it. We argued because I told him it wasn't my fault. He shoul've told me that. We didn't talk for 2 weeks, but then started seeing each other again. We didn't have sex for a long time (2 monthes) untill he was ready to have it regularly. Once that happened and once I "taught" him everything it was the BEST SEX ever. Everytime was better than before. He was so passionate and dedicated and selfless.
I didn't see other people for 2 years. But when I was around 17 I started to feel like we were a "married couple". We would see each other all the time. There wasn't any excietement for me anymore. There wasn't any space for something new. I already new everything about him. That's when I slept with a guy he was jealous of for years, because he was always hitting on me. When I told that to the INFJ 5w4 guy, he was CRUSHED. And I felt guilty. He was so depressed. But I told him how that guy didn't mean anything and how I love 5w4 (him). He wasn't mad at me. But he was mad with that guy and he had some fights (physical) with him. Anyway, we got threw that. But I said that I just can't live like I am "his wife" I must see other people, because I was going CRAZY. After all, I am pretty by the boo 7w8. You know that our basic fear is feeling of being trapped and losing our freedom. That's how I felt with him, I gotta say. He was just SO obssesed with me. Hug me/kiss me all the time.
He said that he understood that. He said that he loves me and that he wants me to be happy. He said he won't be standing in the way of my happiness.
From that point forward, he have been seeing each other. But I have also been seeing other people. Whenever I was going to see somebody else I would TELL HIM THAT! He knew. I think those are the answers to your questions.


Looking forward to your reply @g_w

 

[nburns]

I think that's what they call puppy love. It sounds like for you, it's over, but he is clinging and needs to let go.

 

[Octopus1]

IT IS NOT OVER I LOVE HIM MORE THAN EVER!!! I TRULLY DO!!! It is just that I was feeling suffocated by him and all his attention. I love him and I didn't ask how to end this, just how to HELP US. @nburns

 

[nburns]

Do you love him as a friend or as a lover? It sounds like you've demoted him to friend.

 

[Octopus1]

@nburns no... I know what I feel. I AM IN LOVE WITH IM. END OF STORY.

 

[karmachameleon]

If you really love him and want to be with him you need to stop being a pussy and COMMIT. If you dont want to, just leave him alone and let him get over you. You leading him on is just going to hurt him even more and its selfish of you.

 

[counterintuitive]

how to HELP US.

Stop sleeping with other people. You're in a relationship with someone who is upset by it. Even if he says he's ok with it, he's obviously still upset. And again, whether or not his upset is justified, he's still upset. Best case scenario, he pretends he's not upset but really still is and gradually builds resentment. Do you want that?

So basically, to "HELP US", you have to accomodate his feelings even if they are unreasonable. You cannot reason him out of his hurt. This is an Fe situation. Use your Fe. ;D

Look, I'm about to say something really mushy and uncomfortable, lol, but here goes. I'm 7w8 as well and very likely also ENTP, I know INFJ are supposed to be our "perfect match" or whatever, but regardless, if I found an INFJ (or any type really) who I loved and connected to as much as you obviously love and connect to your INFJ, I would hold on and "never" let go. I put "never" in quotes because it's not literally "never" - I have some commitment-phobic tendencies too. Nevertheless, if you think you really have something special here, love-wise, you should think hard about whether it's worth throwing it away over other guys who you acknowledge mean nothing to you.