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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi 8s.

I have been close with a male enneagram 2 for two years, and over time he has shown how capable he is of being physically domineering and intimidating - borderline abusive.

As I was going through threads today, I suddenly questioned whether he is a 2 at all, and maybe he is an enneagram 8. The reason I thought he was a 2 at first though, was that he had a lot of pride and seemed to try very hard to close the gap in our relationship. He loves love. He's really good at figuring out what people need. He has the warmest smile, a gentle voice, and is a bit of a nerd. We have quite an age gap, so I was wondering if perhaps he could be an 8 with strong growth towards 2? Or he could be a 2 with a strong stress towards 8. He doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway except for the entitlements he feels towards me specifically. He is very love driven and probably just wants to be loved deep down. But at the same time he really enjoys the chase... he's not as aggressive of a pursuer as I imagine 8s to be... but maybe 8s aren't as aggressive as I've imagined?

Do you guys think he's more of a 2 or an 8? I have an 8 brother who is likely an 8w7... while my friend might be more of an 8w9. Where he can be very physically unafraid of conflict, he also tends to ignore things that bother him. Thanks for your time! Anything helps.
 
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Hi 8s.

I have been close with a male enneagram 2 for two years, and over time he has shown how capable he is of being physically domineering and intimidating - borderline abusive.

As I was going through threads today, I suddenly questioned whether he is a 2 at all, and maybe he is an enneagram 8. The reason I thought he was a 2 at first though, was that he had a lot of pride and seemed to try very hard to close the gap in our relationship. He loves love. He's really good at figuring out what people need. He has the warmest smile, a gentle voice, and is a bit of a nerd. We have quite an age gap, so I was wondering if perhaps he could be an 8 with strong growth towards 2? Or he could be a 2 with a strong stress towards 8. He doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway except for the entitlements he feels towards me specifically. He is very love driven and probably just wants to be loved deep down. But at the same time he really enjoys the chase... he's not as aggressive of a pursuer as I imagine 8s to be... but maybe 8s aren't as aggressive as I've imagined?

Do you guys think he's more of a 2 or an 8? I have an 8 brother who is likely an 8w7... while my friend might be more of an 8w9. Where he can be very physically unafraid of conflict, he also tends to ignore things that bother him. Thanks for your time! Anything helps.
This may be for a few reasons.

One is that a central idea of most cultures is the toughness of a man, and thus, this may be a reason that enneagram 2 males frequently mistype as 8s.

Secondly, perhaps he is an 8 with a strong connection to 2 or vice versa, or he has both 8 and 2 in his tritype.

Thirdly, he might be a 2 disintegrating into 8.

Sorry that's all that I can offer right now, but I will say this. When it comes to the Enneagram, outward behaviors don't matter. As I myself have been reminded time and time again, the basis of Enneagram theory is the motivation behind a person's behavior.

Best of luck, Dark and Derisive

P.S. I have 8 and 2 in my tritype. Specifically I am a 5w4 > 8w9 > 2dw sp/so
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Secondly, perhaps he is an 8 with a strong connection to 2 or vice versa, or he has both 8 and 2 in his tritype.

Thirdly, he might be a 2 disintegrating into 8.

Sorry that's all that I can offer right now, but I will say this. When it comes to the Enneagram, outward behaviors don't matter. As I myself have been reminded time and time again, the basis of Enneagram theory is the motivation behind a person's behavior.

Best of luck, Dark and Derisive

P.S. I have 8 and 2 in my tritype. Specifically I am a 5w4 > 8w9 > 2dw sp/so
Thanks, I never considered how significant of a role having the tritypes can can have. I guess I need to confront the notion that tritypes exist because he definitely has an 8 in there at least. It's like he's not fully 2 and not fully 8, and I am humoured that I'm even entertaining in making this jump in his e-type.
 

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I hesitate to type people over the internet. More so, I hesitate to type third parties.

I think it's possible that this guy's an 8. Also possible that he's a 2. Both for the reasons mentioned above.

Something that might help you is to look for the presence of the wings. If he's a 2, you should eventually see undertones of 1ness and 3ness to him. If he's an 8, you should see 7ness and 9ness. Don't just go by behaviors, but really see if you can figure out what's motivating him here. For example, you said he doesn't seem very aggressive--why? Is it more because he doesn't want to get worked up (more 9) or because he wants people to like him (more 2)? Or whatever behaviors you've noticed.

I don't expect an answer to that, btw, it's just a way to think of it.

Of course, the short answer is to show him the enneagram and ask what he thinks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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The reason I thought he was a 2 at first though, was that he had a lot of pride and seemed to try very hard to close the gap in our relationship. He loves love. He's really good at figuring out what people need. He has the warmest smile, a gentle voice, and is a bit of a nerd.
He is very love driven and probably just wants to be loved deep down.
I trust people's first instincts, and if this is how you would first describe him, then I would say two.

Not to mention, "figuring out what people need" is something that takes some time and effort for eights to develop while integrating, and "gentle voice" seems a stark contrast to the abrasive, harsh, and sharp voices and tones eights are generally described as having.
We have quite an age gap, so I was wondering if perhaps he could be an 8 with strong growth towards 2? Or he could be a 2 with a strong stress towards 8. He doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway except for the entitlements he feels towards me specifically.
Eight falls to five while unhealthy. Eight grows to two while healthy. Two falls to eight while unhealthy.

Also, "he doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway" is contradictory to the fact that you are even inquiring if he's in disintegration behavior, and this specific sentence.
I have been close with a male enneagram 2 for two years, and over time he has shown how capable he is of being physically domineering and intimidating - borderline abusive.
I also noticed that you spoke nothing about the presence of explosive anger, which is the hallmark trait of unhealthy eights. Therefore, two.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Also, "he doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway" is contradictory to the fact that you are even inquiring if he's in disintegration behavior, and this specific sentence.
I think that the growth-stress is a fluid thing, where one day I can be in growth mode and the next day I could be stressed and disintegrating. It's not really about health levels but stress. For me, it's hard to tell whether he is an 8 who has really learned to find joy in generosity OR if he's a 2 who stresses into an 8 when I stand up to him. When we are happy together, he seems more 2ish simply because... I'm not resisting him. Once I resist him he takes action, no matter what it is. Like, he'll eat my food if I don't want to share, simply because I don't want to share. However, this chart says that 2s share the same weakness as 8s... so maybe they both become "authoritarian" and "possessive". Apparently 2s and 8s are quite similar. (Found here: Directional Theory)



TypesDirectionMotivationStrengthsWeaknesses
2 5 8AgainstPower-seekingInner will, fighting spiritAuthoritarianism, possessiveness


I also noticed that you spoke nothing about the presence of explosive anger, which is the hallmark trait of unhealthy eights. Therefore, two.
HMMM yes I agree, he doesn't really have explosive anger, and I didn't consider that it was an "hallmark trait" of unhealthy 8, but I guess I should have known. My 8 brother used to be very physical when he was angry, but he went through some life-changing experiences and now he's very level-headed with his anger. He's ridiculously tolerant now... always telling me I'm too emotional.

I agree that the first impression is probably right, but I never felt like my GUT agreed with the signs I saw that led me to believe he was a 2. For instance, he is not very image oriented and seemed more of a gut-center type. His lifestyle is a bit alternative and he honestly doesn't care. I cannot figure out whether he would be a 2w3 or 2w1 because neither seems to fit him. He's not ambitious and doesn't have any of the 1 rigidity to him. If he were an E8, I c5ould easily say he has a 9 wing. However, he is really good at hiding his anger and doing something about it rather than show it, whereas I am more explosive, even as a 9.

Anyway, I think it's safe to conclude he is an E2 with 8 in his tritype for now. He's refusing to take the test.
 
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I think that the growth-stress is a fluid thing,
It is. Objectively.
where one day I can be in growth mode and the next day I could be stressed and disintegrating.
Well, it's more like you can integrate and disintegrate in both directions.
It's not really about health levels but stress.
... I don't think those are mutually exclusive.
Like, he'll eat my food if I don't want to share, simply because I don't want to share.
LOL my younger brother is a type two. I give him my leftovers, and he apparently doesn't mind eating it.

However, this chart says that 2s share the same weakness as 8s... so maybe they both become "authoritarian" and "possessive". Apparently 2s and 8s are quite similar. (Found here: Directional Theory)

TypesDirectionMotivationStrengthsWeaknesses
2 5 8AgainstPower-seekingInner will, fighting spiritAuthoritarianism, possessiveness
Indeed. Don't forget that type fives also shares those strengths/weaknesses. Each of those types focus on a specific angle of power.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
LOL my younger brother is a type two. I give him my leftovers, and he apparently doesn't eating it.
Lol yeah, when I actually do offer my food, he's more likely to kindly decline. -_-; So if I wanted to have all my food to myself, I had to try acting really generous and offer it to him in hopes he'll decline. At first I intensely hated this pattern, and we got physically aggressive over it, but now I'm like eh, it's the sx-first stacking probably, and he's always trying to get me to eat his food with his sharing nature.
 
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Eights in general will aim more at challenge to assert control over situations. Their relation is almost always characterized as 'friendly'. The two is more interested in discovering and maintaining your need for them. This amounts to generating passion for their reassurance rather than the direct lustiness of the eight.

Twos are more subtle usually in their suggestions and manipulations. They tend to sacrifice themselves but then expect compensation (entitlement) whereas eight are more just do it types, less subtle, more earthly and touchy. Eights tend to lope right up to you and get physical whereas twos are more sinuous, even the men. One thing for sure that helps identify a two, they are convinced that they know what is best for you (more even than you do). Eights will more often challenge you to 'just do it' for yourself, and if you do not want to the contest of wills will have less talk and more stare or slam.

Just a few ideas. The two men I know (that are not ALSO eights) are a little creepy to a lot of women. Their warm regard is too openly passionate at first. Once you get to know them this recedes (or so I am told).

I am 8w7, 4w3, 7w8 sx/so if that matters.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Eights in general will aim more at challenge to assert control over situations. Their relation is almost always characterized as 'friendly'. The two is more interested in discovering and maintaining your need for them. This amounts to generating passion for their reassurance rather than the direct lustiness of the eight.

Twos are more subtle usually in their suggestions and manipulations. They tend to sacrifice themselves but then expect compensation (entitlement) whereas eight are more just do it types, less subtle, more earthly and touchy. Eights tend to lope right up to you and get physical whereas twos are more sinuous, even the men. One thing for sure that helps identify a two, they are convinced that they know what is best for you (more even than you do). Eights will more often challenge you to 'just do it' for yourself, and if you do not want to the contest of wills will have less talk and more stare or slam.

Just a few ideas. The two men I know (that are not ALSO eights) are a little creepy to a lot of women. Their warm regard is too openly passionate at first. Once you get to know them this recedes (or so I am told).

I am 8w7, 4w3, 7w8 sx/so if that matters.
Thanks for this! I feel a bit more validated in my previous confusion, since my 2 is a bit less talk and more slam.

I always hear about the subtle 2 manipulation/suggestions, and as a 9, I thought my 2s intentions were more blatantly obvious - but perhaps more subtle to others. However, I have recently learned how even I could be sucked in. I practically let it happen with my eyes wide open, thinking I'll just figure it out later. It's weird that I don't consider him actually *unhealthy* even though he probably is. I have been blind-sided! It just goes to show how different people can be in their private life verses how everybody else sees them.

Anyhow, I have concluded that he is indeed a 2, healthy or not. I'm not sure about his wing... but he must have 8 in his tritype.
 
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Thanks for this! I feel a bit more validated in my previous confusion, since my 2 is a bit less talk and more slam.

I always hear about the subtle 2 manipulation/suggestions, and as a 9, I thought my 2s intentions were more blatantly obvious - but perhaps more subtle to others. However, I have recently learned how even I could be sucked in. I practically let it happen with my eyes wide open, thinking I'll just figure it out later. It's weird that I don't consider him actually *unhealthy* even though he probably is. I have been blind-sided! It just goes to show how different people can be in their private life verses how everybody else sees them.

Anyhow, I have concluded that he is indeed a 2, healthy or not. I'm not sure about his wing... but he must have 8 in his tritype.
About being sucked in, it can happen and does to everyone. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and some whole set of people out there simply has your number. So don't beat yourself about that.

I find myself always reminding women in particular but men as well, if someone does some not so cool stuff to you, you have to remember, that is mostly on them. Heaven knows we all have enough stuff to protect ourselves from. No one needs friends, family, and loved ones betraying them.

And yet ...

Betrayal is betrayal precisely because it comes from the side or behind. Most people betray their loved ones every day a little bit. You have to hope the big situations are not included in this. But heck, even the little games of oneupssmanship a lot of people(bullies and imagecrafters) think is cool and all in good fun, is wounding and degrading to a lot of us.

I see society becoming progressively more and more sensitive. I can't decide if that is good or bad yet but it is what is happening. In general that means these types of smaller slights will eventually be looked at with the same measuring stick as violence once was. The weird part is that only in these last two decades has the third world had access to essentially modern culture due to extended phone ranges etc. They are catching up fast though, in some cases leaping forward into a more social outlook than the culture in the first world. I love the crazy differences.

Here is some wisdom regarding 2s: Set very clear boundaries for them and YOU stick to them. They will mope and whine when you make them stick to them. But if you establish a no slide barrier in some circumstances, manipulation, even seemingly innocent manipulation, becomes much much harder.
 
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Hi 8s.

I have been close with a male enneagram 2 for two years, and over time he has shown how capable he is of being physically domineering and intimidating - borderline abusive.

As I was going through threads today, I suddenly questioned whether he is a 2 at all, and maybe he is an enneagram 8. The reason I thought he was a 2 at first though, was that he had a lot of pride and seemed to try very hard to close the gap in our relationship. He loves love. He's really good at figuring out what people need. He has the warmest smile, a gentle voice, and is a bit of a nerd. We have quite an age gap, so I was wondering if perhaps he could be an 8 with strong growth towards 2? Or he could be a 2 with a strong stress towards 8. He doesn't seem unhealthy in anyway except for the entitlements he feels towards me specifically. He is very love driven and probably just wants to be loved deep down. But at the same time he really enjoys the chase... he's not as aggressive of a pursuer as I imagine 8s to be... but maybe 8s aren't as aggressive as I've imagined?

Do you guys think he's more of a 2 or an 8? I have an 8 brother who is likely an 8w7... while my friend might be more of an 8w9. Where he can be very physically unafraid of conflict, he also tends to ignore things that bother him. Thanks for your time! Anything helps.
I think you may have a case for him possibly being an 8. Has he ever taken a an enneagram test or typed himself? I was with an unhealthy 2 ( was always between 2 or 9 when he first learned about enneagram) for many years, and the reputation that 2's have of being possessive and all over their partners- he was never that way with me. Well, he was once he met other women on the side, he was all jealous over potentially losing them (but never even cared if guys talked to me, so to find out he was a 2 was actually shocking), and I saw it come out when he tried to control his own brother and tell him how to date and exactly what to do with his girlfriend ( living vicariously through him, he was ultimately jealous that he was younger than him and dating younger women, and wanted in on that too, got into this whole competition) He was not usually physically domineering, but he would have been if he could have gotten away with it (we were roughly the same size) he DID use intimidation of various sorts to control and manipulate and even through yelling.

2's are not the cookie-baking yet secretly manipulative folks people want to make them out to be. I believe male type two's and male histrionics are more common than given credit for, just not recognized because what men do in this arena is considered "normal" for men. An 8 in love- will look like a 2 in the sense they are giving and want to give you the world and want you to have everything and of themselves ( that's how I am) There is a certain generosity with 8's that is NOT give-to-get, and is just there with no expectations back.

You very well could have a 2 dealing with serious anger and resentment- look for the clues, does he brood and not share, but then explodes? an 8 will explode, but they don't usually brood internally for long- even the introverted ones... theres lots of things and clues I can think of, maybe not right now off the top of my head though. Wishing you the best <3
 
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