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Discussion Starter #1
- 8s are power hungry, so are cp 6s
- 8s seek control, so do cp 6s
- 8s at their worst are aggressive and confrontational, cp 6s at their worst are the same

what are some external characteristics that are exclusively 8, wing 8 or affected by 8 influence?
 

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Eights have very solid, powerful wills, and increase the pressure until they get what they want. This becomes a problem for unhealthy eights, because they end up applying pressure in a very destructive way, and end up creating enemies and making their situations worse. They become healthier by learning when enough is enough, and pulling back.

Sixes are more erratic with their aggression, and since it's coming from a place of insecurity, they end up succumbing to anxiety and paranoia more readily than eights do. While they will probably lash out at those who get too close, the damage done is more self-destructive, while an unhealthy eight will be as much a danger to everyone around them as they will be to themselves.

So, eights are completely congruent with their instincts, while sixes alternate between congruency (phobic) and denial (counterphobia). A six who's completely congruent won't look anything like an eight.
 

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I love extremes and I will break 6s in a confrontation. I love to attack and hate defensive stance, which was especially obvious while training martial arts. I literally couldn't get any moves that involved stepping back. I fucking hate to step back. Push 6 and you can break them. The more I'm pushed the more I enjoy it and the stronger I become. I love people challenging me. I sense fear while 6s CS want to create fear.

I think I'm aggressive and confrontational at my best - when I care. I didn't give a slightest fuck about others at some point so any form of aggression was pointless in my world. I wonder why aggressive or shall I say direct way of being is perceived as something negative. People in my opinion fuck around the bush too much. I see being nice, patient, diplomatic as manipulative. In the end nobody says what hi/she really thinks/feels. It all seems to be one fucking bullshit. We live a fucking nice lie.

I seek control over myself. Try to change that and you are in trouble. What's wrong with that?
Being power hungry - someone has to take the charge. Do you expect all the sheeps to walk around without anyone to lead?

My question is wtf you call something that is natural to appear at someone's worst? I say all this boundaries respect bullshit. How do you imagine world with no leaders? How do you expect the world to roll without naming things that are wrong, unrespectful in a "polite manner"? There are things that you may calmly call out but sometimes you have to slap someone at the face to make sure they get the point. Either way overused means definitely lack of life calibration.

As for 8 trait - I don't give fuck about others. I couldn't care about my own safety or could not understand why someone was worried about me throughout my whole life.

One word - respect. I do think 6s want to be liked. All I need is respect, all others need from me in order to have value is respect. Loose that and I do not give a fuck whether you exist or not. I have a hard time to care about people that don't have it in any form in my eyes.

I can't really perceive potential harm. The only time I do is, when I protect someone. This is a bit funny with loved ones heh.

People are afraid of my by default. There is this aura. If I stay silent everyone around feels uncomfortable. It is just there. I don't think I'm consciously working towards it.

I naturally sense other "power players" present and gravitate towards them. I think the difference between 6s and me is that I want to challenge, play and associate with them opposite to compulsive need to prove something. It's more of fun to me. Challenging me always bust my energy level in a positive way. I'm fucking high if someone throws a real thing at me. I do fuck things up just to face consequences.

I think risk taking behavior is more of an internal need then peer pressure.

I think 8s can be lonely top dogs while 6s couldn't survive without others' validation. Personal satisfaction vs social status.

This "genuine anger" in the eyes. It's just burning there :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
@DarkSideOfLight

a few disagreements
- not all CP 6s are cowardly weaklings (Mike Tyson, 50 Cent and Chuck Norris could probably kick your ass lol) but the issue here is endurance. the 8 has a constant drive to see their will manifested in reality and is at home in conflict; the 6's aggression is more defensive and lacks the enthusiasm and consistency of an 8.
- 6s don't always turn toward others for security. 6w5s for the most part turn inward for security much the way a 5 would. a 6w5 usually needs little if any validation from others
- 6s do not perpetually care about social status, you have them confused with 2s, 3s and So doms.
I couldn't care about my own safety
- this has nothing to do with 8 and everything to do with Sp last. plenty of 8s care a great deal about their safety and health (actually, I'd say it's correlated with 8 to an extent. 8s tend to have high opinions of themselves and people with high opinions of themselves take care of themselves) and plenty of So/Sx and Sx/So's of other types don't care about these things

a few other parts of your post I agreed with
 

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Truth be told, I'm not sure there are any simple answers here. Very CP6s and 8s have basically the same psychological pattern and can be virtually identical. You'd need to examine the underlying motivation in this case, and that's not always conscious or readily noticeable by others. Sorry to break it to you, it's not as simple as kicking someone's ass, and the "weaker" one is the 6.

As the two types become unhealthy, that's when they begin to diverge--but most of us never really become that unhealthy. Sixes can indeed be pressurable, but generally when they feel that they're alienating themselves from their allies. They recognize strength in numbers. If you have a 6 set against his/her perceived enemies, you may never see that side of them, same as 8s.

About me--I am operating under the assumption that I am a 6w5. I also have 8 in my tritype. I don't want anyone to turn this into yet another thread that winds up insulting 6s as weak little downbackers and glorifies 8s--both strategies coexist inside me, both are strong, and both have their place. I'm not sure there is any simple way to tell one type from another by behavior alone--we all overlap, and when you figure in instincts, levels of health, tritype, and background, you can get a real clusterfuck.

What you say, Swordsman, is absolutely true. I do not seek outside validation; in fact, my entire life has revolved around how little validation I have ever sought--I've always been immune to peer pressure. I could care less what people think of me; I'm out for myself and that's all. I've survived things which, according to a medical professional, should have psychologically destroyed me. Yet I'm still going strong. I challenge the next person who pulls a "cowardly 6" stereotype on me to live for a day in my life.

Also, an interesting fact to know and tell: I live in Cambodia, right next to the infamous S-21 genocide museum. Twenty thousand people went in to that jail, and each and every one of them was starved, beaten, tortured, and forced to confess to imaginary crimes against the state, after which point they were hauled out to a field and bludgeoned to death. Thousands of people of every type were broken in half wound up ratting out their own families--there is not one exception; the 12 or so survivors just happened to be alive when the Vietnamese invaded. Differences between 6 and 8? At bottom, there's no difference between any of us.

(The guy who ran the jail and so expertly knew how to intimidate people and break them in half is a 1, btw.)
 

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One distinct difference I noticed about myself and sixes is I don't feel a need to build a case to demonstrate that I'm liked and/or desired. I find many Sixes have a tendency to build themselves up and try to make themselves appear to be more important, liked, and desired than they really are.

I don't think 6s and 8s have the same psychological pattern at all. I think it may be confusing to an outsider looking in especially when a CP6 is in full counter phobic mode. I have several friends IRL that are Sixes and I can definitely tell a difference between myself and them. For starters I find CP6 approach to life to be more glass half empty as oppose to my approach half full.

They are quick to caution you of any and everything that may go wrong and often times cripple themselves into inaction due their fears. Whereas I will take action in spite of whatever fears I may have...I will press through because I know that only action is the true antidote to fear. I also find they are good at talking at people....many times they will loud talk a person to to talk at another person and think they are really doing something badass. Whereas if I have a problem with a person, I will address them directly with my concerns.

They also like to pick fights with people they feel they can intimidate. I have the most problems with type 6 IRL starting shit with me with their bully-like tactics to discover their ass pinned up against the wall because I won't back down. One thing I will say they learn quickly who to fuck with and who not to fuck with.

My boss is a CP6 and he is an absolute bully full of hot air. He made the mistake of trying to use his bully tactics on me and I warned him if he started it then I would finish it. He decided to overlook my warning and we went head to toe. I haven't had any more problems with him flaring up at me since. He only does that shit with people that let him get away with it.:rolleyes:

And the only time he can confront a situation is when he's already angry about something otherwise he is a total wimp. The other thing I find different about sixes compared to me is tattle telling and back stabbing. They will snitch someone out in a heart beat rather than deal with a person to their face.

Sixes and Eights do not have the same psychological makeup. Some behaviors may seem similar but on the other side of it our motivations, fears, and desires are not the same. Trust me.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
@n2freedom
I think it has a lot to do with their response to conflict. conflict to an 8 is a natural part of life. to a counter phobic 6, conflict is generally a disturbance. the 8's reactiveness is like a spring being released; the 6's reactiveness is more like a reflex. one thing a lot of people don't realize about 8s is that generally they're very relaxed. generally, they go at their own pace, which can vary from very fast paced to slow and steady, but it's seldom as rushed as a head triad type. 6s on the other hand seem to me at least like they're constantly running out of time, like they have to get all this stuff done or XYZ consequences will come crashing down on them (I'm exaggerating a little, but I think the basic premise holds true).
at the end of the day, the 6 just wants to know that everything is going to be okay. the biggest difference I see between CP 6s and 8s is that the CP 6 displays a strong sense of being "overwhelmed" by life.
 

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One distinct difference I noticed about myself and sixes is I don't feel a need to build a case to demonstrate that I'm liked and/or desired. I find many Sixes have a tendency to build themselves up and try to make themselves appear to be more important, liked, and desired than they really are.
As a 6, I've never, ever done this. I sat here for a whole 15 minutes racking my brain trying to think of a single instance of this, and there isn't one. It sounds almost like a social-variant or even type 3 thing more than type 6 (yeah, I'm social last, btw).

They are quick to caution you of any and everything that may go wrong and often times cripple themselves into inaction due their fears. Whereas I will take action in spite of whatever fears I may have...I will press through because I know that only action is the true antidote to fear. I also find they are good at talking at people....many times they will loud talk a person to to talk at another person and think they are really doing something badass. Whereas if I have a problem with a person, I will address them directly with my concerns.
I feel the same way, actually--if my problem is with that person, I think its the honorable thing to take it up with them directly. I've no patience with those who skulk around and or rat you out to the boss (there's a recent instance of a guy who did this in my department, and we're all still living with the consequences of his tattle-taleing). And you are right--the only way out is through. That's the only way to combat fear; I've seldom been outright paralyzed by fear. If I experience anxiety, it actually makes me want to take action just to get it over with.

My boss is a CP6 and he is an absolute bully full of hot air. He made the mistake of trying to use his bully tactics on me and I warned him if he started it then I would finish it. He decided to overlook my warning and we went head to toe. I haven't had any more problems with him flaring up at me since. He only does that shit with people that let him get away with it.:rolleyes:
Lol, I once had a bi-polar, possibly type 8, boss who acutually fired me because she couldn't pressure me into working faster than I was comfortable going. Works both ways.

Sixes and Eights do not have the same psychological makeup. Some behaviors may seem similar but on the other side of it our motivations, fears, and desires are not the same. Trust me.
I trust you, and assume your post is somewhat in reply to what I wrote about "psychological makeup" (which is why I'm taking the time to respond). Mine were probably a poor choice of words. I was intending to say that there is a complex of emotions present in both cp6 and 8 revolving around aggressions towards those they perceive as violating them in some form, and it's the same sort of thing. You do have to look at motivations, fears, and desires, but unless you actually know that person, or have the capacity to study their life, it might not be readily apparent--there's not necessarily any quick and easy test. So, basically the same thing you just said. ;)
 

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I trust you, and assume your post is somewhat in reply to what I wrote about "psychological makeup" (which is why I'm taking the time to respond). Mine were probably a poor choice of words. I was intending to say that there is a complex of emotions present in both cp6 and 8 revolving around aggressions towards those they perceive as violating them in some form, and it's the same sort of thing. You do have to look at motivations, fears, and desires, but unless you actually know that person, or have the capacity to study their life, it might not be readily apparent--there's not necessarily any quick and easy test. So, basically the same thing you just said. ;)
Just a small portion.....I have several sixes around me and it just seems to be a disconnect with who they perceive themselves to be and who they really are. I was at my wits end with most of them this week because the moon must be rising in running scared as most of them were on high alert. And, I find it very difficult to get along with them and find it very taxing to deal with them when they are in their high alert state.

Also, I'm very well aware of the differences between me and the CP6s in my life and I still assert... while their are few similarities in behavior to an outsider unaware of enneagram looking in ... their is a vast difference between the two. However, I think CP 6 with their gut fix in 8 and 8s with their head fix in 6 probably look the most similar. But, to say that there is virtually no difference between CP6 in general and 8s....not true.
 

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Also, I'm very well aware of the differences between me and the CP6s in my life and I still assert... while their are few similarities in behavior to an outsider unaware of enneagram looking in ... their is a vast difference between the two. However, I think CP 6 with their gut fix in 8 and 8s with their head fix in 6 probably look the most similar. But, to say that there is virtually no difference between CP6 in general and 8s....not true.
First, I'm not an outsider to the enneagram myself. I also wouldn't--and haven't--claimed that there's virtually no difference between the 2 types in general. I said they share a complex of emotions revolving around aggression which can be nearly identical. That complex is only one part of both types, each of which has a lot more to it than just that.

Likewise, I still assert...that there are always difficult cases...that there are people who fit into no clear category...and that personality structures in each type may overlap with any other, hence the frequent mistypings on these forums. We're human beings first and inherently have a lot in common with each other regardless of type. I also don't think it's a bad thing to have anything in common with type 6s.
 

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The headyness of the 6 makes them second guess decisions, go back on anger easier making the aggression at times less intense or even more intense than 8 aggression at times. 8 doesn't have the head energy fixation to make them vacillate as much so there will seem to be more solidity. Its not really about weakness vs strength (stereotype) -- but rather likelihood to keep thinking about something/overthink it (6) -- or not do that and stick to the initial impulse/decision (8). 6 being head center takes in new information and provides their own new information from within a very fast paced brain in overdrive. There is lots of -noise- in the mind of a 6. 8 - not so much. Decisions will come on slower, but stay. 6 mind is very activated, will grasp at many things until making a decision, and then still be open to going back on it many times.

This can manifest in certain behaviours like seeming angry one moment, not so much the next (6) -- or not getting over an anger when its time to just get over it (8).

6 will be more anxious, weighing all information. 8 not as much, not toiling over every little thought.
 

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First, I'm not an outsider to the enneagram myself. I also wouldn't--and haven't--claimed that there's virtually no difference between the 2 types in general. I said they share a complex of emotions revolving around aggression which can be nearly identical. That complex is only one part of both types, each of which has a lot more to it than just that.
What you are saying above is not what you said in your original post which was....
Very CP6s and 8s have basically the same psychological pattern and can be virtually identical.
Hmmmmm seems like a contradiction to me.
Likewise, I still assert...that there are always difficult cases...that there are people who fit into no clear category...and that personality structures in each type may overlap with any other, hence the frequent mistypings on these forums. We're human beings first and inherently have a lot in common with each other regardless of type. I also don't think it's a bad thing to have anything in common with type 6s.
Interesting. Nonetheless I still assert their is a vast difference between type 6 and 8. And, as I indicated above, in my opinion, the overlap most likely will be between CP 6 core with gut fix 8 and core 8 with head fix CP 6.

Yes we are human beings first and inherently have a lot in common with each other regardless of type. Nevertheless, there are a vast amount of things that influence our behavior and decision making processes, and I believe personality type is one of them. I think you are oversimplifying here.

I'm not even going to comment on the last part of this statement because it is totally not relevant.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
First, I'm not an outsider to the enneagram myself. I also wouldn't--and haven't--claimed that there's virtually no difference between the 2 types in general. I said they share a complex of emotions revolving around aggression which can be nearly identical. That complex is only one part of both types, each of which has a lot more to it than just that.
Likewise, I still assert...that there are always difficult cases...that there are people who fit into no clear category...and that personality structures in each type may overlap with any other, hence the frequent mistypings on these forums. We're human beings first and inherently have a lot in common with each other regardless of type. I also don't think it's a bad thing to have anything in common with type 6s.
they share aggression, but that's not the same as sharing an aggression complex.
the 8's aggression is territorial. they become aggressive when their space is invaded, when they been stolen from, when lied to/deceived or when they or their loved ones have been wronged in some way. 8s check boundaries, push, pay back or dominate the situation. the 8 at his worst is like a silver back gorilla, wanting to control and dominate everything in it's territory (well, everything substantial, 8s are not of the OCD/perfectionist brand of control freak. they don't usually care about the little stuff) and fight off any rivals
the counter phobic 6 is more frantic in their energy, they reacting counter phobically to avoid a negative consequence they are anticipating in their mind.
 

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Hmmmmm seems like a contradiction to me.
Not really, because I told you "psychological pattern" was (and still is) a poor choice of words. I also said "can be" not "generally are in most aspects of life"--simply that they can be nearly identical, especially, as you point out, to those who are new to the enneagram.

You know, when I re-connected with my father as an adult, it took me somewhere on the order of 3 months to figure out he was a cp6 and not an 8. For a long time, the only thing I saw was his aggression towards others and protectiveness of me. I really did have to look at him, his background, and his motivations and desires to realize he was a 6. It can be really difficult to tell. Now I know so much about him, I'd never mistake him for an 8--but it can take discernment.

Yes we are human beings first and inherently have a lot in common with each other regardless of type. Nevertheless, there are a vast amount of things that influence our behavior and decision making processes, and I believe personality type is one of them. I think you are oversimplifying here.
I may be oversimplifying, but I would rather do that than become enslaved to ideas about how different we all are and/or how everything relates to type (a general tendency; not intending to implicate you specifically here). I've seen this on many a forum; it's like people begin to relate everything (what you dreamt last night, how you feel about various film genres, your breakfast cereal, the shoes you wear) to your Enneagram Type or MBTI. People begin to describe themselves differently when they change types. I try to move against that when I write, because I've noticed even in myself a tendency to start thinking that way.

I'm not even going to comment on the last part of this statement because it is totally not relevant.
You totally don't have to listen to it. I put it in because so many people are resistant to having Type 6 qualities, and I couldn't find a more graceful way to word it at the time.
 

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they share aggression, but that's not the same as sharing an aggression complex.the 8's aggression is territorial. they become aggressive when their space is invaded, when they been stolen from, when lied to/deceived or when they or their loved ones have been wronged in some way. 8s check boundaries, push, pay back or dominate the situation. the 8 at his worst is like a silver back gorilla, wanting to control and dominate everything in it's territory (well, everything substantial, 8s are not of the OCD/perfectionist brand of control freak. they don't usually care about the little stuff) and fight off any rivals
the counter phobic 6 is more frantic in their energy, they reacting counter phobically to avoid a negative consequence they are anticipating in their mind.
Yeah, you're totally right, but I'll also point out that in both instances it's a reaction against being somehow violated.

I've seen my cp6 father become aggressive when a guy punched his car, when creditors call him demanding instant payment, and when he thinks a store-clerk is being "difficult" with him. Once I saw him haul off and slug a security guard in the face when the guard gave me a hard time trying to get on the train. It could conceivably be either motivation; in his case, I know him well enough to know it's a fear/stress reaction. I concede that someone else might not realize that, though, hence mistypings.
 

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but it can take discernment.
Agreed

You totally don't have to listen to it.
Agreed.
I put it in because so many people are resistant to having Type 6 qualities, and I couldn't find a more graceful way to word it at the time.
I fail to see how people being resistant to having type 6 qualities correlate to what we discussing .... the differences/similarities between 6 and 8. Again, it wasn't and still isn't relevant to what we were discussing.
 

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Recently, I observed a conflict between an 8w9 and a cp6w5. It was fascinating. The 6 was very forceful, very loud and very aggressive. He was defending his wife, because he felt the 8w9 (who is a politician and my father's childhood friend lol) had, somehow, given his wife the short end of the deal (she is an aspiring politician). The 8 was calmer than the 6, and the 6 was more outwardly confrontational (provoked the 8 several times, to get to the truth of the matter [8s push for the truth in a similar way]). Both men had strong wills. The 6 had a more fluctuating energy throughout that pretty damn heated argument. He didn't actually back away, at any point. His energy (it was clearly 'head type' energy; and it seemed like the 6 wasn't exactly "at home" in the conflict). It was almost as though he wanted to push it closer to an end and get done with it, one one hand. On the other hand, he kept bringing up the same disagreements and adding fuel to fire, so to speak. His approach to conflict had this vacillating quality. The 8w9 pushed right back and was pretty much unflappable. He didn't seem threatened by the 6s aggression, but any aggressive response from the 8 brought about very strong reactions from the 6. I could tell that he was becoming flustered, though still outwardly pushy and resolute, during the argument.


In the end, they reached a mutually acceptable resolution. The 8w9 expressed that he had enjoyed the 'argument' and was pleased with the resolution that had been reached. The 6 still, seemed, to have some animosity towards the 8 after it was over. He was very charged up from the fight. The 8 went back to drinking tea and making fun of my hilarious childhood photo in his album.

Cp6s will get into a conflict and confront the opponent aggressively, but like I said, it takes them a while to get it out of their system after it's over. Essentially, it's not entirely within their comfort zone as in the 8's case.

@Promethea, SOM and others have covered the differences well. So, that was a first hand account illustrating some of the points that have been made here. I would, however, expect a more explosive exchange between a cp6 and 8w7.
 

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As a CP 6w7, all of my aggression is directed towards defense. I can be quite aggressive when my boundaries are crossed. Especially in terms of tact and common courtesy.

Think king in his castle coming out and fighting on my grounds. The areas I'm familiar with I will happily fight to the death especially when I am right.

Eights have a very interesting persona about them. I get along with them well, but my uncle, intern boss, and room mate all know not to screw with my boundaries.

Guy I interned with always gave me hell for not being as well rounded in acoustic theory as I could have been. Calling me stupid from time to time. It got to the point I said, "yo, either shut up calling me an idiot or teach me these things I don't know. Be a mentor damn it!" Another time, I found him yelling at a verizon rep for charging him for a broken phone in shipment. CSR wouldn't budge. I called and handled it. Sure enough, he got the charge reversed.
We've been close friends ever since. ;)

Room mate is a lot chiller, but he'll do stuff that annoys me from time to time like take significantly larger portions of dinner that I make. I normally don't assert my boundaries because I'm home and don't feel the need to. When it does happen, I call him out on It. The irony is he looks confused for a split second unsure of why I was mad. He always manages to repay the debt.

Sorry 8s I love you as much as I love everyone else in this world, but learn when to not use the "guns" and you'll find it easier. As a CP 6, don't invade my castle.

I've gotten farther in this world by being diplomatic and asserting myself when the time is right. In the 21st century the "alpha" male/female better have some simple diplomacy skills because most beaurocritters and customer services reps don't handle attitudes well.
 

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Cp6s will get into a conflict and confront the opponent aggressively, but like I said, it takes them a while to get it out of their system after it's over. Essentially, it's not entirely within their comfort zone as in the 8's case.

http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=2338 Promethea , SOM and others have covered the differences well. So, that was a first hand account illustrating some of the points that have been made here. I would, however, expect a more explosive exchange between a cp6 and 8w7.
Funny you should mention it takes them a while .... my cp6 boss avoided me for three months alter our altercation. And, he tried to find evidence in which to retaliate by reviewing my time sheets, my status reports, and telework plans. I discovered all my paper work spread across his desk and him reviewing it when I went to drop something off to his office.

And, it was indeed an explosive exchange. Little does he know, I really could hung him up by his balls because he was totally in the wrong and totally over reacted. When I consulted with an associate who works in HR, she told me I had grounds to file a grievance against him for bullying in the work place.

At the time, I didn't see a need because I let him know in no uncertain terms how I expect to be treated and so far he he hasn't crossed that line with me again. We haven't had any more exchanges since that incidence or problems for that matter.
 
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