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Queen of Hearts
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Preface: I'm pretty new to Socionics so hopefully I won't be able to guess what the questions are getting at.


Block I

1.General to specific, specific to general – what does it mean?

General to specific = let's figure out the overall contours of what we want to do, figure out the plot, put down the dots before we connect them. Then concentrate on the details.

Specific to general = let's write down all the important details and then scale it outwards.


2.What does "logical" mean? What is your understanding? Do you think that it correlates with the common view?

Logical means it holds together intellectually, there are not contradictions in statements of facts or truths. If there are contradictions there is an explanation for them. I think it correlates with the common view.

3.How do you explain fractions on the dial of the clock?

I don't understand this question. They divide an hour into even parts. Like slices in a pie. They represent minutes.

4.What is a rule? What rules do you have to follow?


A rule comes in two varieties: natural and unnatural. A natural rule is something like, "In the game of Sorry you cannot slide on your own color"...because the rules of Sorry define the game of Sorry. Or else, "You should be kind to your neighbor". It is not arbitrary. An arbitrary rule might be, "You should not wear white after Labor Day" or "You should not end a sentence with a preposition". Arbitrary rules often have value, but I consider it up to my discretion to follow them, whereas if I break natural rules, it is more like cheating.

5.What is hierarchy? Do you need to follow it? Why or why not?

Hierarchy is the line-up of how much respect and deference should be paid to certain people. I feel that it is important to follow it, although always with the understanding that we are all mortals and brothers and sisters. But it's necessary to realize that, for instance, a doctor who has put time and effort into a profession that benefits the human race, or an aristocrat with a higher place in society, commands more respect and attention than I do.

6.What do you think of instructions? Do you use them? Could you write an instruction manual? If so, what type of instruction manual would you most likely write?

Sometimes I find instructions fun. I see them as optional though. I may have fun feeling super organized and such putting together a model airplane or something, step by step, or reading through the shampoo bottle before using it, but it is more likely and frankly reasonable to just through myself into it. I would not be good at writing an instruction manual. I would do it about some subject I guess if I had mastery, but I would not enjoy it and it would be a painstaking process.

7.Please explain: "Freedom is in complying with the laws, but not in ignoring the laws"? Do you agree with the statement? Why?

I don't know I understand the statement. I think a society does better if everyone follows the laws, assuming the laws are good...which leads to more peace, which leads to more freedom? I don't know, I struggle with the concept of freedom as something desirable, or even defining it in my mind.

8.Tell us how about consistent you are?

Fairly inconsistent? I mean, I'm consistent in the big things (morals and such, though I tune them up regularly), but I will try out new ways of making coffee frequently, I will try different styles, I will say I will do something "I'm going to lose 20 pounds this month" and then not even start. However, I'm pretty consistently inconsistent in this respect.

9.What is a "standard"? Why do people need it?

A standard is a bar of basic behavior not to fall under. For example, a standard I have for myself is that I will look presentable every time I leave the house. I do not believe that people have any business being in the outside world in sweatpants or with unbrushed hair. I need this standard because I will often be too lazy to dress properly and I should at least be able to chastise myself if I break it. I have standards for others as well, for instance if someone is very vulgar or profane I will consider that behavior under the standard I accept for association. I need this standard because I do not want to surround myself with people I do not want to be like.

10.You need to put your home library in order. How do you feel about this activity? How will you approach this task?

Yes! I love putting things in order! I will take all my books out of their shelves, choose an organizational method (author's name, color of volume, etc) and sort them in that order, then put them on the shelves and clean everything.


Block II

1.What is work in your opinion? Why do people go to work? Are there any parameters where you can distinguish whether you can do this work or not?

Work is anything you don't want to do, but have to do in order to accomplish a goal. People go to work mostly to get money, so they can survive and thrive. Sometimes they might have another goal in mind, like improving the world or something similar. I don't know what the last question means.

2.Is there any correlation between quality and quantity? Tell us if or how the price depends on quality?


Quality typically is separate from quantity, I tend to assume that if something is available in vast quantities it is not high-quality. Higher-quality things usually have higher prices.

3.How do people determine the quality of work? How do you determine such quality? How well you can determine the quality of any purchase, do you pay any attention to it?


Honestly I usually rely on the reputation of a product, as well as a bit of my own judgment. For instance, I do not consider myself a leather expert of any fashion, but I hear good things about Bottega Veneta's leather products, and they are stylish and seem tasteful in my opinion, so I consider them of a high quality.

4.How do you feel if you didn't finish some work? Does it ever happen? What are the reasons?

Depends. If I care (for example, something I am writing) I am disappointed in myself. If not, I am just a little disappointed in myself, but mostly relieved. It happens all the time. Mostly because I am incredibly lazy, and will become discouraged about the difficulty of a task or my ability to complete it. For instance, right now I am avoiding writing the novel I am working on, because I freaked out about making the plot consistent, and I had noticed a very sloppily written passage in another project I did.

5.What is "interesting work" for you? Please explain in detail.

Interesting work is . . . some work you would find interesting. I can't imagine anything honestly. In my opinion you can make anything interesting or uninteresting depending on your outlook. I think a job that would be interesting would be one where you had the opportunity of talking to all sorts of different people. Working at an airport, for instance. Teaching would probably be interesting as well.

6.You go to the store and see something you're interested in buying; there is a price tag on it. What parameters are you going to use to understand if it's overpriced, underpriced, or priced correctly?


First I look at the brand and think about my opinions about the brand. Then I look at the product, the materials used, etc. Then I think about what products of this sort usually sell for, and compare this price. Then I decide if a.) I like this product enough to spend the extra money or b.) I am willing to take a hit in quality for the lower price. or c.) this is an amazing deal.

7.When you work and someone tells you: "You don't do it right." What is your reaction?

I am upset, even if I knew I was doing a bad job, but I remain professional and ask how I can do it better. Inside I am freaking out, afraid that I will be fired, and very embarrassed.

8.There is a professional right next to you. You always see that you can't perform the way they do. Your feelings, thoughts and actions?

I feel self-conscious and hampered by the professional's presence. I will want to wait until they are gone to do the task. Failing that option, I will pretend that I don't know they are there, and try to somewhat copy what they are doing.

9.When you have to ask someone else to help you with the task, how do you feel?

Neutral. I like making people feel helpful, I don't necessarily love asking for help, but these are very mild orientations and they balance each other out. I worry I am annoying them.

10.You need to build a pyramid exactly like in Egypt. Your thoughts, feelings and actions?

Confused. There are already three great pyramids in Egypt, and they have historical and cultural value. Why not build a whole new building that is not just a cheap knock-off and can have value on its own standing?


Block III

1.What is beauty? Do you change your opinion about beauty? Does your understanding correlate with the generally accepted notion? What goes beyond the generally accepted notion?

To quote Keats, "Beauty is truth; truth beauty, that is all you know on earth, and all you need to know". Beauty is different from prettiness or elegance because something pretty can be utterly meaningless, whereas something beautiful has a deeper element that hints at a universal truth, or brings you closer to God. Actually, I just finished writing a passage to this point:

I looked at the statue critically. “I’m disappointed,” I admitted. “Goddess of Beauty – you’d think it would be something exceptional. I’ve seen at least five women as good-looking as her just today.”
“Have you?” she’d said quickly, then shook her head. “No, I don’t think that’s the point. Aphrodite, by all accounts, didn’t look like just one woman. She took different shapes. So this woman-” (gesturing at the statue rather dismissively) “-would have looked ordinary if you just took down her features. She was only exceptional because she was the face of a goddess. It’s like . . . I don’t know, Kay, have you ever seen a tree – or a person even; it could be anything, I guess – that looked really impossibly lovely, but only because you could see something, a piece of Heaven, behind it: it was only beautiful because it was a veil for – well, God, I expect.”
“Never,” I said decisively.
“Haven’t you?” She glanced away. “Well, it’s no matter, anyways.”
2.Please describe your understanding of a beautifully dressed person. What is the core of beauty? How do you explain what is beautiful to a person who has never heard about beauty before?

There should be a sense of unity, symmetry, and effect. I think I described the core of beauty above. I might explain it as, "The feeling of awe, wonder, and delight caused by looking on something filled with the spirit of truth and power."

Examples of beautifully dressed, for me:
Photograph Clothing Black-and-white Dress Beauty Photograph Clothing Black-and-white Dress Beauty
Black Photograph White Clothing Black-and-white (I guess, though I'm not sure I like the girl's hair)
Forehead Suit White-collar worker Businessperson Official


3.Is there a template of understanding what beautiful means for everyone to use? Is there such a term as "classical beauty"? If so, what is it?

I don't know. Beauty is highly personal. I would like to quote Keats again please. "Beauty is truth, truth beauty." Bam. That's it. My whole beauty philosophy. Classical beauty I would say stays within more specific rules and proportions and perhaps can be objectively considered beautiful. Don't know.

4.What is comfort? What is coziness? How do you create your comfort and coziness? How do others evaluate your skill in doing so? Do you agree with them?

Comfort is essentially not having to make adjustments, having everything on hand that you need. For instance, if you are lying in bed and you are constantly having to move around your clothes and sheets...it is not comfortable. If you have to think about something too much, it is not comfortable. For example, if you are thinking about the temperature, it is not comfortable. If you are thinking about a social situation, it is not comfortable. Coziness is different. It is a feeling of being utterly safe, protected, and, yes, comfortable.

5.How do you pick your own clothes? Do you follow fashion? Why? Do you know how to select clothes for different types of figures?

I go to the store or online and look for clothes I kinda like. I see if they fit reasonably and then I buy them. I have an unusual figure so 'fitting' is the main requirement. So I have started making my own clothes as well. I try to follow fashion occasionally but mostly I consider it asinine and empty and very boring. I do not know how to select clothes for different figures, colorings, or anything. Sometimes I try but I just get frustrated and it all feels very shallow and horrifying.

6.How do you cook? Do you follow recipes? What do others think of your skill?


I try to follow recipes but often I will tweak things or freehand it. I mostly only bake though at the current moment. Others find my skill ok. but they are beginning to grow tired of my forcing baked goods onto them. However I cannot eat everything myself so I don't know what to do. Honestly cooking is one of the only things I actually like doing.

7.Are you good at color patterns and mixing them and matching?


No, and frankly it all seems stupid to me. I don't really conceive of color as an independent object, it is only what it attached to, and it makes me nervous and frustrated when people are like, "Oh, you like the color of the flower, we can reproduce that color and print it out" or some shit, that's not what color is to me.

8.If someone is telling you what is beautiful and what is not, what goes with what color and what is not, do you agree with this person?


No. I mean, I've learned to appreciate what is meant by some artistic principles and such, but only I define what is beautiful to me.

9.Tell us how you'd design any room, house or an office. Do you do it yourself or trust someone else to do it? Why?

I would do it myself. It is my room (my house, my office). It should look like my mind, not the mind of some random designer. Besides, I find it fun to put rooms and decorative schemes together, and try to imitate Better Homes and Gardens catalogues (in my own way).

10.How do you know if a person has bad taste? Could you give us an example? Do you always trust your own taste or do you seek opinions from others?

Bad taste is . . . vulgarity. For instance, an outfit that is too busy or loud, or covered in brand names, is in bad taste. A book that is too lurid or melodramatic is in bad taste. For instance, if someone read only read Poe and Anne Rice I would consider them to have poor literary taste. Some people have different tastes from mine, but it still seems to be good taste. Bad taste is usually not self-aware. I enjoy the occasional gothic novel or romantic comedy, and I know I lack taste in these areas. But I feel like it's a little better because I know it's in bad taste ;))


Block IV

1.Can you line up human resources and make them do things? What methods do you use? Can you press people? If so, how does it happen?


Human resources? Like...human beings? No, I can't. I don't even know what this means.

2.What is incursion? How do you deal with this? Can you repulse? How easy can you do it?

Like...invasion? I don't know, I don't think it happens to me. Repulse other people...on purpose? I guess fairly easily, but not on purpose. I don't understand these questions.

3.What does "my people" and "strangers" mean? When do "my people" become "strangers" and why?

"My people" are like...my clan. The people I would defend to the death. "Strangers" are people I don't know or care deeply about, there is little or no mutual understanding. "My people" do not become "strangers". That is impossible.

4.Are there strategies of attack? Can you use them? When is it justified?

Are these questions about warfare? I'm not a military person...

5.Do you think it's ok to occupy someone else's territory? In what situations?

If you really have to? Like...to defend your own country? But it is not ok to take over someone's country and call it your own.

6.What are the methods of volitional force? When is it most effective and in what situations?

Yeah, don't know...

7.How do you protect yourself and your interests?


I just sort of...try not to get them shot down. IDK. It's not something I think about.

8.Describe your behavior in the situations of opposition and if you have to use some force?

...if I am fighting with someone? I probably yell at them, they yell at me, then we make up and find a compromise. I am not violent, if ever it is in self-defense.

9.Do others think of you as a strong person? Do you think you are a strong person?

Sometimes weirdly they do. Like, some girls give off this fragile sense, and guys want to protect them, they treat them like precious little china dolls. It bothers me that guys never want to protect me or treat me carefully, they see me as more of a stuffed bear or something. They aren't really afraid to hurt my feelings. I think I am a strong person in some ways, not so much in others. Any 'strength' I have is not my own, but from God. Strength is not really a quality I admire.

10.How do you understand if a person is strong? Are there any signs of a strong person? What is the core of any force? Why do people listen to one person, but not the other?


Blech. Who cares? We're all fragile little mortal beings, no one is that strong at all. People tend to listen to a person if they have a higher social status.


Block V

1.What is boorishness? Does your understanding of it correlate with the generally accepted notion? How would you explain what boorishness mean to a 10 year old child? How would you explain the same to an adult who does not behave ethically?

Boorishness is behaving vulgarly, without thinking about others or the effect of your actions on others. I would describe it to a child as being rude and thoughtless. In a similar way to an adult.

2.How would you improve the moral of the society?

In this current society, I would want to introduce a stronger idea of personal responsibility and a stronger value for life. And a more personal way of understanding other people, less of a dog race and more of a community. I wish people had higher moral standards and weren't afraid to expect higher standards from others.

3.Can you justify somebody's bad behavior by thinking that he/she wasn't taught how to do so?'

A little bit, but not totally. Being late might be a result of bad upbringing, but they still need to learn to value others' time. Being selfish is mostly just a character flaw.

4.Give us your understanding of love. Can you love and punish at the same time?

Love is an affectionate, deep, attitude towards others, a refusal to give up on them. Of course you can love and punish at the same time. They are completely unrelated concepts.

5.Have you heard about the Southern hospitality? Everything is for the guest. There is also a German hospitality – the master of the house is always right. What method is the right one? Try to evaluate without the weight of any cultural aspects, traditions, nations etc.


Had not heard of German hospitality, and I lived there. For my Southern hospitality would be correct. To me, that is what hospitality is. That is how I was taught it. However, I would not say my definition of hospitality is more correct -- it's just the one I use in my cultural context.

6.What is sympathy? When do you need to express it? When is it advised not to?


Sympathy is feeling for someone. Generally it is good to express it. I would not express it if I felt someone was showing an excess of self-pity, it would seem like encouraging them. If I did not feel sympathy I would not fake it unless it was a minor, passing thing.

7.Are there any norms of behavior in the society? Do you follow them? Do people always have to follow them? Why?

Yes, and I mostly follow them because there is no reason not to. I think people should follow cultural cues as far as possible unless there is some good reason to break them. (If you are rushing to the hospital, there is no need to stop and chat with your acquaintance on the street).

8.How do you know what attitude among people is right or wrong?

Which is the most logical and moral, the closest to truth.

9.What does moral mean? What is immoral? Does your understanding correlate with the others? How can you evaluate the correctness of your own understanding?

Morality is following the natural law of right and wrong. Morality is something that may look different across countries and centuries, but remains essentially the same. It is rooted in humility and thinking of others first, as well as God and the universe in general. It is not behaving in ways that are False. I look to my moral compass to see what is moral and immoral. Generally I have a strong feeling about what is right and wrong. I try to pray frequently to uncloud my mind and have a clearer insight as to the truth.

10.Somebody is giving you a negative attitude – what is your reaction? Could you show your own negative attitude toward someone else? If so, how? Could you give a person the silent treatment? How easily do you forgive people?


Depends. If I am close to them I will express my displeasure. If I don't know them well, I will nod along politely. I am practically incapable of giving the silent treatment. I have no trouble forgiving people, (not necessarily accepting their actions). I struggle to hold grudges.

Block VI

1."Whole world does not cost one tear of child" – how do you understand this phrase? Do you agree with this opinion?

Don't even know what it means. If it's saying a child crying is more important than the whole world, it is nonsensical. There's millions of children crying out there right now. People are sad. Then they get over it. It's a common situation.

2.Is it acceptable to express emotions? Give examples of inappropriate expression of emotions.

Depends. Happiness is always acceptable, but I think negative emotions tend to make people uncomfortable. I personally try only to express them to a confidante in private. Sometimes it is inappropriate to mention emotions, for instance if you are at a wedding you should not tell people about how in love you are with the bride (if you aren't the groom), if you are having a normal casual conversation you shouldn't suddenly start spilling your guts unless the situation calls for it.

3.Can you use negative emotions? In what situations?

Use? For what purpose? Do not understand.

4.How do you express negative emotions? What does it look like? What do others think about it?

Hm. Sometimes I try to hint at them or express them indirectly. Or I will have a fit of temper, and express them in no indefinite terms, saying everything on my mind and wallowing in self-pity. It is not a pretty sight. Others are used to it, so they do not react.

5.Shallow emotions – what does it mean? Are there any other emotions?

Like, "I want to have lots of sex with lots of different people"...is that an emotion? I guess 'fun' is kind-of a shallow emotion. Or greed.

6.What are right or wrong emotions?

Right emotions are in support of others -- being happy for someone, distressed for someone, or else being joyful for your life, or appropriately sad or melancholy. Wrong emotions are self-serving -- jealousy, pride, anger, self-pity, etc.

7.Can you change the emotional state of yourself? Of others? To what side – positive or negative?


Probably, but why would I want to?

8.What does it mean to "pour out your emotions"? How does it happen?

To suddenly start expressing your emotions without reserve. I do it frequently. It happens because of self-pity, and I get worked up to a state where I can not hold back my feelings.

9.Does your internal emotional state correlate with what you show externally?

Probably, but I can hold back my emotions if I want to.

10.Do you track what mood you are in throughout the day? Do you notice the mood of others?


Yes and yes.

Block VII

1.Do you like surprises?


Good surprises, yes :)

2.How people change? How do you feel about those changes? Can others see the changes?

I don't believe people truly change. They might become better or worse versions of themselves but they are always the same person at heart. I sometimes feel sad or nostalgic when someone I know has changed a good deal, if I was not there for those changes...it feels like we have grown apart. I don't think people see when they are changing.

3.Is it true that whatever happens is only for the best?


Yes. But people can make mistakes.

4.What do you think of horoscopes, fortune telling etc.? Do you believe in luck, lucky fortuity?

It's like...I don't, but I do. It's like with ghosts. I don't believe in them technically, but if I saw one I would not be that surprised.

5.Can you forecast events? Is it even real?

No, but I have had vivid dreams showing something bad happening to someone, or a similar thing...and it has turned out to be correct. I have had strong feelings that something is wrong and find out it is. But it is not forecasting, it is what is happening in the present, or the past.

6.What is time? How do you feel time? Can you "kill" time? How?

Time is ... the little river we're all being swept along. I never feel like there's enough. You can kill time by wasting it, not being mentally aware, living too much in yourself, not appreciating it. I hate how little time we have, and I am constantly pushed on by wanting to make the most of it.

7.Is it easy for you to wait for some important event? What if you don’t know when it is supposed to happen?

Not easy, and if I don't know when it'll happen, it makes it worse.

8.Do you need help creating forecasts and determining how something will end? Do you trust those forecasts?
Yes, but usually I don't want to know.

9.Are you normally late? How do you react if someone is late?

I'm never late, and I am annoyed when others are late, but I know to expect it. I don't like it if we do not have much time to go through our plans or hang out, or if there is some time crunch.

10.Imagine the situation where you agreed to meet with someone. Your feelings and actions: a) 20 minutes before the meeting starts, b) 5 minutes before the meeting starts, c) it is time for the meeting to start, but the person is not here, d) 20 minutes after the meeting start time and the person is not here, e) more time and the person is still not here…

a. Getting excited to meet them! Getting all my stuff in order, brushing up my appearance, looking forward to it.
b. Feeling a little anxious, still excited, hoping the time will go by a bit faster.
c. :(( Where are they? Well, they'll definitely be here in the next five minutes. Try to find something to do while you wait.
d. Ok, I'm just going to leave. No, I'll hang around for a bit. But my day is only so long, can't spend all my time waiting on this stupid person. Hope they aren't dead.
e. I'm gone already.

Block VIII

1.Is there a meaning of life? In what? Is it the same for everybody?


Yes. If I have to think of it quickly it'll be the pursuit of perfection and for God. Same for everyone.

2.What should be done so people can be happy?

Show them how to be happy and thankful for their life.

3.In the situations with a lot of potential and volatility will you trust your own guts, logically calculating everything or will you ask people you trust what should be done?


Ask people I trust, but ultimately trusting my own gut.

4.When you meet a stranger, what can you say about them right away? How do you know what this person is all about? Does it take long to understand someone's talents?

If I like them, if I want to associate with them or know them better, if they are interesting. I just listen to what they say and how they present themselves. I don't know precisely what you mean by talents. I am often thinking about people's different good and bad qualities and reassessing them, so I guess it takes a while.

5.Remember an interesting person and call out 5-6 qualities you think are interesting in them. What makes an interesting person? Are you an interesting person? Why? What if someone calls you "boring" and "not interesting"?


Ok...well-spoken, elegant, dedicated, kind, vibrant, serious. I don't think I'm particularly interesting or particularly uninteresting. I am working on being more interesting. If someone calls me boring...ok, I'm not thrilled or anything but it's not the worst insult in the world.

6.What opinions, from people who know you, seem: a) fair; b) not fair; c) hurtful; d) strange.

a. Too quiet, too dependent b. Selfish, overbearing c. I don't know d. I don't know, people never tell me their opinions about me :(

7.Do you fantasize? What kind of fantasies do you have?


All the time. Mostly it's nothing far from usual: everyone being in love with me, becoming really famous and rich, all that jazz. Or I am a fictional character living in that world and of course the main point is the guy in that world being in love with me (and vicey versa). Or not. I don't know. There's a whole range of things. Romance is the most common theme though. (Usually eventually tragic romance. I can get very invested and very upset when the tragic shoe drops))

8.What qualities should a person have to be successful and why?

Organization, a vision for the future, dedication.

9.What qualities can stop a person from being successful and why?

Indifference, boredom, not understanding how the world works.

10.What is more important in life – to be a good person or be a successful one? Why? Is a good person always successful? If not, then why?
By all means, being a good person. A good person is always successful because being a good person is a success, but good people are less likely to have brilliant careers in my opinion, because they are more honest and selfless.
 

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Maybe you should email your 80Q to someone who knows a thing or two about Socionics (browse the Socio. forum to see who knows the system best). I would help, but I have but a vague knowledge of it (but it seems to be the most informative personality system relative to the others).
 

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Queen of Hearts
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks)
 

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Queen of Hearts
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Maybe you should email your 80Q to someone who knows a thing or two about Socionics (browse the Socio. forum to see who knows the system best). I would help, but I have but a vague knowledge of it (but it seems to be the most informative personality system relative to the others).
Good idea, thanks) I was hoping they'd come over here haha))
 

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Good idea, thanks) I was hoping they'd come over here haha))
I remember how you helped me hahaha but it's so unfortunate I can't repay it back. Do you go to Michael Pierce's YouTube channel often? He has already started posting videos on Socionics on his channel. Perhaps you soon email him, and see what he has to say? He's a really nice guy. I've emailed him on more than one occasion. Gives great advice.
 

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Queen of Hearts
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I remember how you helped me hahaha but it's so unfortunate I can't repay it back. Do you go to Michael Pierce's YouTube channel often? He has already started posting videos on Socionics on his channel. Perhaps you soon email him, and see what he has to say? He's a really nice guy. I've emailed him on more than one occasion. Gives great advice.
Hey, you are helping) I don't know the first thing hardly about Socionics so it's nice to have some pointers. I'll check out his videos, and perhaps email. Thanks!))
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Question: is it possible to be EIE-Fe in Socionics and ESFJ in MBTI? Because I relate a lot to the EIE description whereas ESE does not seem to fit me well. But I'm almost positive I'm ESFJ.
 

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Well, if you are typed by cognitive functions in both systems, then no. ESE use Si as 3-dimensional, valued function, hence it's one of most frequently used. For EIE , Si is the so called "PoLR" function, hence function you use the least, and don't appreciate at all. I wouldn't make sense to be these two types simultaneously. Socionics and MBTI look at functions from different angles, but Si is still Si and Ni is still Ni. Just like a biologist might look at an apple from different point of view than, say, chemist, but apple is still an apple, not orange or a gorilla. :th_wink:
If you type off descriptions or MBTI dichotomies, then yes, you could be any 'type' in MBTI.

As for yours, I think I had seen your video somewhere and thought you are an ESE.
 

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Hello dual. I found your mentally based orientation really interesting. F-leading, seems like valued Ti as well and other things don't contradict the EIE typing either.

MBTI is a separate system from Socionics. ESFJ has Si which is very differently defined in MBTI than in Socionics. So sure, not impossible, depending on how you identified with ESFJ.
 
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Well, if you are typed by cognitive functions in both systems, then no. ESE use Si as 3-dimensional, valued function, hence it's one of most frequently used. For EIE , Si is the so called "PoLR" function, hence function you use the least, and don't appreciate at all. I wouldn't make sense to be these two types simultaneously. Socionics and MBTI look at functions from different angles, but Si is still Si and Ni is still Ni. Just like a biologist might look at an apple from different point of view than, say, chemist, but apple is still an apple, not orange or a gorilla. :th_wink:
No, a function isn't an apple. Meaningless analogy as it will not prove a thing about the systems in question here.

And no, Si isn't the same in the two systems. Very much not.


As for yours, I think I had seen your video somewhere and thought you are an ESE.
ESE wouldn't generate a Si section in the questionnaire like OP.
 

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Queen of Hearts
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Ugh see this is why I need to study up on Socionics; I don't know who to believe)
See, when I read in MBTI the Si description, it sounds a lot like me...in Socionics, it sounds almost nothing like me.
For instance, nothing about any of this:
This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure...Types that value Si prefer to spend their time doing enjoyable activities rather than straining themselves to achieve goals. They like to believe that if activities are done with enjoyment, people will give them more effort and time, and also becoming more skilled at what they are doing in the long run. They believe that goals should suit people's intrinsic needs rather than shaped by the demands and constraints of the external world, and so do not try to force others into doing things they don't want to do. They also try to be easygoing and pleasant, preferring peaceful coexistence to conflict, except when their personal well-being or comfort is directly at stake.
...sounds like anything I've ever done. At all. I even feel a little uncomfortable reading this description.

I don't know...maybe I'm not an ESFJ (or ESFj) then? Or?
 

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Ugh see this is why I need to study up on Socionics; I don't know who to believe)
See, when I read in MBTI the Si description, it sounds a lot like me...in Socionics, it sounds almost nothing like me.
For instance, nothing about any of this:

...sounds like anything I've ever done. At all. I even feel a little uncomfortable reading this description.

I don't know...maybe I'm not an ESFJ (or ESFj) then? Or?
I guess it depends on descriptions. Random MBTI sites would be the worst source I guess, Jung would be the best. Personally I like Thomson and van der Hoop as well. Socionics, I might recommend wikisocion.


myst91 said:
No, a function isn't an apple. Meaningless analogy as it will not prove a thing about the systems in question here.

And no, Si isn't the same in the two systems. Very much not.
It's defined differently, but it's reffering to the same, real phenomenon, that's what analogy tried to convey. "Systems" don't define reality, they are just methods of perception. To not overcomplicate needlessly I assume that Si is just Si, only seen from different angles.

ESE wouldn't generate a Si section in the questionnaire like OP.
Dunno, I said I get impression about her type based on the video, didn't read 80s.
 

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Ugh see this is why I need to study up on Socionics; I don't know who to believe)
Lol yeah do study it a bit more, it's not too bad :)


See, when I read in MBTI the Si description, it sounds a lot like me...in Socionics, it sounds almost nothing like me.
I am not at all surprised about that.


For instance, nothing about any of this:

...sounds like anything I've ever done. At all. I even feel a little uncomfortable reading this description.
Right, Socionics Si is your PoLR function, meaning it's the weakest and most rejected function in your psyche.

Do also read what I'm replying to wolf12345 below. Hopefully it helps :)


I don't know...maybe I'm not an ESFJ (or ESFj) then? Or?
Mind saying more about how you picked that type for yourself? Which Si description sounded like you?

But yes, definitely not ESFj in Socionics. ENFj for that one works.

Also, can you link to the video that wolf12345 is referencing?


I guess it depends on descriptions. Random MBTI sites would be the worst source I guess, Jung would be the best. Personally I like Thomson and van der Hoop as well. Socionics, I might recommend wikisocion.
Jung's Si isn't compatible with Lenore Thomson's Si.

As for Socionics, the articles section at the16types.info is a pretty good source too that becomes more and more extensive by the day. Wikisocion is not bad though.


It's defined differently, but it's reffering to the same, real phenomenon, that's what analogy tried to convey. "Systems" don't define reality, they are just methods of perception. To not overcomplicate needlessly I assume that Si is just Si, only seen from different angles.
Prove that it's all the same phenomenon. It's rather clear that it is not. It's quite easy to explain too as to why not. I could go into much more detail on this but I will just do a quick summary.

When the founders of MBTI copied ideas from Jung, they also modified and added other ideas based on their own observations of people and then trying to go back to the functions from these observations. Clearly, they were not examining the exact same phenomenon as Jung.

The same applies to Socionics, the socionists stayed closer to Jung when adapting the ideas but they still used their own observations to go by. The system is again quite different in several aspects but it's deeper than MBTI's. Less empirical validation though.

It's not surprising that all these observations do not fully match which is clear when you compare the definitions from the different systems and check for inconsistencies. Clearly there's a different structure to the relationship of the MBTI SJ types and MBTI Si that doesn't match Socionics ExSj/IxSp types and Socionics Si at all.

What's more, the MBTI observations have been much more superficial than Jung's or even the socionists's. Resulting in a partially different system which is not bad as it has shown somewhat empirically that certain correlations do exist but it does not offer a very good explanation for them, a quite simplistic system compared to Jung's original. No wonder then that parts of the system fall apart on closer examination.

And no one said systems define reality but quite ironically you seem to have a kind of overreliance on "the" system in terms of assuming and believing without proof that two different definitions in two partially independent systems must be describing the exact same phenomenon in reality. Nope. Just because you like some concepts for some reason, it doesn't automatically mean that it's reality. So heed your own warning.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Mind saying more about how you picked that type for yourself? Which Si description sounded like you?

But yes, definitely not ESFj in Socionics. ENFj for that one works.

Also, can you link to the video that wolf12345 is referencing?
Unfortunately I literally just deleted my PerC videos...I can make a new one later when I have the time if it would help. If you can think of anything I should talk about to try to determine my type, please do :)
As for how I decided on ESFJ...long story short...I determined I used the Si-Ne axis (sentimental attachment to objects, subjective view of reality, etc., entertaining multiple ideas, jumping from idea to idea, etc.) and that I used both at a fairly strong strength, neither one low enough to be inferior. I knew I was a feeler, probably dominant, and so it seemed that Fe was the most likely choice. So ESFJ it was.
 

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Queen of Hearts
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Video!
(If anyone wants to watch it, don't bother watching the whole thing...I start seriously rambling toward the end)
 
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Unfortunately I literally just deleted my PerC videos...I can make a new one later when I have the time if it would help. If you can think of anything I should talk about to try to determine my type, please do :)
As for how I decided on ESFJ...long story short...I determined I used the Si-Ne axis (sentimental attachment to objects, subjective view of reality, etc., entertaining multiple ideas, jumping from idea to idea, etc.) and that I used both at a fairly strong strength, neither one low enough to be inferior. I knew I was a feeler, probably dominant, and so it seemed that Fe was the most likely choice. So ESFJ it was.
OK well, in a nutshell, in socionics Si isn't the same so don't be surprised you aren't ESE/ESFj there. You might easily be ESFJ in MBTI by this sort of superficial reasoning.

Thanks for the video, don't have time to watch right now but I'll let you know if I did get to it.
 
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Prove that it's all the same phenomenon. It's rather clear that it is not. It's quite easy to explain too as to why not. I could go into much more detail on this but I will just do a quick summary.

When the founders of MBTI copied ideas from Jung, they also modified and added other ideas based on their own observations of people and then trying to go back to the functions from these observations. Clearly, they were not examining the exact same phenomenon as Jung.

The same applies to Socionics, the socionists stayed closer to Jung when adapting the ideas but they still used their own observations to go by. The system is again quite different in several aspects but it's deeper than MBTI's. Less empirical validation though.

It's not surprising that all these observations do not fully match which is clear when you compare the definitions from the different systems and check for inconsistencies. Clearly there's a different structure to the relationship of the MBTI SJ types and MBTI Si that doesn't match Socionics ExSj/IxSp types and Socionics Si at all.

What's more, the MBTI observations have been much more superficial than Jung's or even the socionists's. Resulting in a partially different system which is not bad as it has shown somewhat empirically that certain correlations do exist but it does not offer a very good explanation for them, a quite simplistic system compared to Jung's original. No wonder then that parts of the system fall apart on closer examination.
Meh, but I agree with this, mostly.

And no one said systems define reality but quite ironically you seem to have a kind of overreliance on "the" system in terms of assuming and believing without proof that two different definitions in two partially independent systems must be describing the exact same phenomenon in reality. Nope. Just because you like some concepts for some reason, it doesn't automatically mean that it's reality. So heed your own warning.
Nah, I don't, and unfortunately I feel you are patronizing here, or at least trying to... Hopefully I'm wrong. It's not about believing, I believe reality is like a boiling soup of constantly changing meanings, if you need to know lol. I have a shitload of relativism and scepticism in my thinking and don't even operate on level of Veritas est adaequatio intellectus et rei.
I just don't see how distinqushing between mbti Si and socionics Si could benefit anybody; for purpose of typing myself/other people I assume functions are referring to the same thing. Why distinguish between functions in different systems, what is that supposed to accomplish? That having said, I agree that you could be anything by MBTI dichotomies vs completely different type cognitively.

Also, I think Thomson Pi functions descriptions relate to Jungian ones. Only difference would be that Jung assumed Pi functions operate with collective symbolism (which was consistent with his other theories), while Thomson assume Pi symbolization is inherently individual (collective meaning vs personal meaning).

I think we should agree to disagree.
 

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Meh, but I agree with this, mostly.
If you agree with it then I don't see how you can continue holding your position.


Nah, I don't, and unfortunately I feel you are patronizing here, or at least trying to... Hopefully I'm wrong.
Not patronizing, just simply pointing out your own contradictions. Don't take it personally.


It's not about believing, I believe reality is like a boiling soup of constantly changing meanings, if you need to know lol. I have a shitload of relativism and scepticism in my thinking and don't even operate on level of Veritas est adaequatio intellectus et rei.
Considering these claims, you still seem to have unchanging and extreme reliance on this theory idea. Still not personal :)


I just don't see how distinqushing between mbti Si and socionics Si could benefit anybody; for purpose of typing myself/other people I assume functions are referring to the same thing. Why distinguish between functions in different systems, what is that supposed to accomplish? That having said, I agree that you could be anything by MBTI dichotomies vs completely different type cognitively.
What it's supposed to accomplish is a more accurate picture of the person being typed.

There's nothing wrong with having two (or more) different systems here, obviously the options are 1) one of the systems is somewhat wrong; 2) both are wrong lol. 3) the systems are both okay but they are describing slightly different sides of you and explaining these sides differently as well.

If you don't take the differences into account, you can end up at all the wrong conclusions and that's not going to help the person being typed get a more accurate picture.

How I personally resolve the issue with differences is explaining why there are differences and how they are meaningful. I do that instead of just trying to ignore them unifying what should not be unified.

EDIT: Seems like you've been able to do that when comparing MBTI dichotomies and MBTI cognitive functions. Why not do it for MBTI vs Socionics vs Jung as well...?


Also, I think Thomson Pi functions descriptions relate to Jungian ones. Only difference would be that Jung assumed Pi functions operate with collective symbolism (which was consistent with his other theories), while Thomson assume Pi symbolization is inherently individual (collective meaning vs personal meaning).
Well... there's more differences than that but this is already significant.


I think we should agree to disagree.
Well clearly you think differently about this and I don't see how you can even start from that sort of axiom* without any proof standing behind it. (*: that "all this stuff is just the same")
 

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IEE sound good for me?
 
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