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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #1
Someone posted this chart in a facebook group. I wanted to share my reaction.




Grr. I think the heart triad should be "Love, Value, MEANING." Not uniqueness. 4s desire to be something *significant* and *meaningful* and they seek their *authentic origin* (Yeah, yeah, I know everyone desires to have meaning in their life, but everyone desires love and value too... all of these are human themes.) 4 "uniqueness" implies too much attachment to the world's standards anyway. Who gets to decide who is "unique" and who is "the same?" Compared to what or whom? For 4s it's about meaningful vs. mundane; "authentically me" vs. fake. Uniqueness, in its own right, would be meaningless if it is not an expression of the 4's sense of self or origin. A 4 would scoff at anyone who did something "just to be different."

Everything on this wheel is a deep human need except 4 - "uniqueness" - which is a pathetic hipster wannabe? That's so lame. It has to be something human.. 4s are human. It's about meaning.

The transcendent mindset would be that everything - even those things we consider mundane - has meaning. And that everything we experience is meaningful, or "really living." 4s have the idea that they're only "really living" sometimes, when they're doing something "true to themselves" or expressing their origin; and the rest of their life feels mundane and meaningless. To transcend, a 4 must recognize that things are meaningful just because they exist. *Note: THAT WILL NEVER happen to me, I will not transcend. And that should be the reaction a type has to their description.* Uniqueness is meaningless to any 4 I've met.


Additional Note: The paradox about authenticity and meaning, is that in order to be authentic, you have to just be. Attempting to search for what is authentic in yourself, ironically, renders it inauthentic, because you are looking for something and trying to wear it as your image, rather than simply existing. A 4 would also "transcend" their fixation by simply being rather than searching for what is "authentic" or "meaningful" and calling that their "identity" and wanting their image to reflect it. Again, most of us will never transcend.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #2
@OrangeAppled
I have to credit you, too, for that post you wrote about "uniqueness" and how it's more of a 6ish or "attachment" concept. I'd mistyped a few times because I can't relate to "wanting to be unique" - first of all I think in terms of authentic vs fake, "me" vs "not me," etc, rather than "unique" vs. "different" because... based on what? And why should it matter if something is "different" ... if it's authentic? For example I used to cringe when my type 3 bass player wanted me to change a song around to make it "Stand out" when the change he was suggesting had nothing to do with the meaning and sentiment of the song. (I'm not saying all 3s do that, but..) And my genre and sound is already... very much mine... partially because of my combination of influences and partially because I sing through a whisper. So I don't see the point in adding "extra weird chords" just for the sake of not sounding like the other songs (if I may say so myself, I use A LOT of complex theory and chords already, but I also go for catchy vocal melodies and something RELATABLE because it is HONEST).

Anyway..

I thought it was just me, and I was either mistyped or just "couldn't relate to other 4s" in that regard... and I was so happy when I read your post @OrangeAppled ... because finally someone made sense with that topic. It makes sense that "unique" and "the same" are attachment issues and viewpoints. Because in order to define something as 'unique,' you need to be thinking from the perspective of the 'everyman' or the masses or something like that; something that simply doesn't register to me.
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Fwiw, I relate. I would say there are certain words I hook onto when it comes to this. 'Raw' is a big one, as is 'meaning'. Anything truly fucking moving and real, dark as it may be, doesn't matter, even better. And I don't think this necessarily helps on the 'fitting in' front...AT ALL. So that would be counterproductive if the true aim was to put out an image of uniqueness to seem more appealing to others

Additional Note: The paradox about authenticity and meaning, is that in order to be authentic, you have to just be. Attempting to search for what is authentic in yourself, ironically, renders it inauthentic, because you are looking for something and trying to wear it as your image, rather than simply existing. A 4 would also "transcend" their fixation by simply being rather than searching for what is "authentic" or "meaningful" and calling that their "identity" and wanting their image to reflect it. Again, most of us will never transcend.
But I wanted to comment on the irony too because I think even fewer people talk about it. At my worst, I think I've driven myself crazy with how self focused I've been, and fixation of authenticity had gotten to the point of being anal retentive. Not saying all type 4s would be that way. My mind used to have a tendency to obsessiveness alone. I just didn't realize at the time I was rejecting certain people and things and actions because they didn't feel authentic enough, but by rejecting them, I wasn't allowing my own self to be. I also didn't realize that I was rejecting them because I ultimately had issues with my self esteem and self perceived value
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #4
Fwiw, I relate. I would say there are certain words I hook onto when it comes to this. 'Raw' is a big one, as is 'meaning'. Anything truly fucking moving and real, dark as it may be, doesn't matter, even better. And I don't think this necessarily helps on the 'fitting in' front...AT ALL. So that would be counterproductive if the true aim was to put out an image of uniqueness to seem more appealing to others
And this is exactly why I thought 8 made more sense for my core than 4, even after I read several different authors who all focused on 'uniqueness' for 4s. I am obsessed with concepts like "raw" and "real" - I don't call myself "Animal" for nothing.

The problem is, if I'm searching for what's raw in me, so that I can put it on display, is it still raw?
No, fucking dammit.

My album was mostly about a 7 (and my daddy issues. My dad is also a 7). At the time I didn't know enneagram but I really hit on his issues. The title was related to freedom. I insisted on keeping the music RAW without a click track. Which meant me and the drummer (my brother on most songs) would just feel each other and then lay all the other tracks over it. But then we laid the vocals and this and that on top and mixed it, so "raw" was more of a FEEL rather than the actual process.

My album art is even funnier. I did it completely myself. I wanted it to have my handwriting, and ripped edges. So, I found all the photos (which are pictures of myself and my male alter-ego, photoshopped together) and wrote the lyrics in pen on graph paper. I placed everything where I wanted it, 16 pages of artwork. Then I photoshopped out the graph. Then, I printed out the page, ripped the edge of each picture and taped it to another page and surrounded it in pencil as a border. Then I scanned in the ripped/taped page, and photoshopped it around the original picture, and erased the middle so the picture in the middle would still be good quality. There! RAW!



That is a metaphor for my life as an image type.

But I wanted to comment on the irony too because I think even fewer people talk about it. At my worst, I think I've driven myself crazy with how self focused I've been, and fixation of authenticity had gotten to the point of being anal retentive. Not saying all type 4s would be that way. My mind used to have a tendency to obsessiveness alone. I just didn't realize at the time I was rejecting certain people and things and actions because they didn't feel authentic enough, but by rejecting them, I wasn't allowing my own self to be. I also didn't realize that I was rejecting them because I ultimately had issues with my self esteem and self perceived value
I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing you are here, but your post brought this to mind: that the idea of uniqueness and sameness would require thinking about the rest of the world a lot more than I am willing. I'm spending that time looking for myself, not figuring out what is unique "to them." I'm way too self-absorbed to even have a concept of "unique." Although I can put it together from things like.. I don't watch tv and never did, wrote my first novel about a prostitute at age 11 (and half a musical), I never got caught up in video games, etc etc, I can make a long list of things I don't do that most everyone else seems to do. So I can put together that I'm "not like them" and not caught up in the trends they are caught up in, but that's just a result of me being too focused on what is really me, and rejecting what isn't.
 

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So agreed! Before learning about the enneagram, trying to be unique is something I never would have attributed to myself, and even after it was only like "Well I guess I do this" but it was never something I would have related to on my own. I have never done anything simply because it was different. And trying to be different makes no sense. The best way I can put my lifelong mindset into words is.. "Why am I like this?". I never tried to be different, I never had to.

I have a friend who knows about the enneagram. He mistyped at 4 because he related to the feeling different/wanting to be different, and after many months he realized he was a 6.. When we would discuss the enneagram, and I would (trying to gently tell him he wasn't a 4) bring up the image and identity issues of the type, he would grab onto "image" in a very face-value way; caring about his looks, his clothes, his reputation.. in retrospect it was a clear line to 3. Interestingly he never brought up a search for meaning, or authenticity on his own. Meanwhile I have years worth of journal entries talking about "trying to be real", "I just want to be honest", and trying to find significance in every nuance of feeling.

But I've had a lot of frustration about NOT feeling like I'm being truly myself, or truly genuine, and going in circles in my heart trying to be. I don't know how to put it into words.
 

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The transcendent mindset would be that everything - even those things we consider mundane - has meaning. And that everything we experience is meaningful, or "really living." 4s have the idea that they're only "really living" sometimes, when they're doing something "true to themselves" or expressing their origin; and the rest of their life feels mundane and meaningless. To transcend, a 4 must recognize that things are meaningful just because they exist. *Note: THAT WILL NEVER happen to me, I will not transcend. And that should be the reaction a type has to their description.* Uniqueness is meaningless to any 4 I've met.


Additional Note: The paradox about authenticity and meaning, is that in order to be authentic, you have to just be. Attempting to search for what is authentic in yourself, ironically, renders it inauthentic, because you are looking for something and trying to wear it as your image, rather than simply existing. A 4 would also "transcend" their fixation by simply being rather than searching for what is "authentic" or "meaningful" and calling that their "identity" and wanting their image to reflect it. Again, most of us will never transcend.


One doesn't need to strive for being unique, because everyone already is. I can enjoy that.

Prince said:
“I’m no different to anyone. Yes, I have fame and wealth and talent, but I certainly don’t consider myself any better than anyone who has no fame, wealth or talent. People fascinate me. They’re amazing! Life fascinates me! And I’m no more fascinated by my own life than by anyone else’s.” To Sylvia Patterson, NME, 1996
So why would there be 'more meaningful' envy over other envy? Why even the need to discern type 4 'meaningful' envy from 'petty' envy? Envy is just envy. It can go way back to sibling envy, to abandonment issues.


Naranjo Type 4 said:
The typical life history of type IV is painful, and it is often apparent that the causes for pain were unusually striking, so it is clear that painful memories are not only a consequence of claiming attitude or tendency to dramatize pain. Beyond the cases of rejection, I have encountered some instances where there was a loss of a parent or other family members. I have noticed how frequent the experience of being ridiculed or scorned by parents or siblings has been. Sometimes poverty contributed to the painful situation of all, and other times a cultural or national difference between the family of origin and its environment contributed to a generalized sense of shame.

Besides ethnic background, the presence of alcoholism or other social disgraces may have inspired a feeling of not having a normal family and become a source of envy. A daughter of poor parents says, for instance: “I felt envy towards a girl who attended school in a uniform.”
The experience of siblings is, of course, a common factor in that of early envy. Thus a young man says: “I was the fifth among seven, I was neither with the older ones nor with the little ones. I felt alone without a place.”

What matters is how one explains it, and how one copes with it. Some people try being better, some seek secure relations some seek to be favorite or important, some seek to be different and thus hoping to avoid being left out, or being replaced. That doesn't mean it's attachment triad, because anyone can have attachment issues. Even the dismissive avoidant.

Prince Baby I'm a star said:
Hey, I ain't got no money
but honey I'm rich on personality
Striving to be unique or special is just a competitive way of seeking to be different or significant, e.g. being 'more different' or 'more significant' than others if not 'most significant', which arguably can be attributed to Sx. (e.g. like the most significant other, the 'One')

Sp is in denial of envy, like sp3 has 'vanity for having no vanity' (not to mention sp2 'pride for having no pride' or false humility). Vanity for having no vanity is for a reason. Not vocalizing suffering is also for a reason, or a strategy. Many 4s may also say that they are not competitive (perhaps except for Sx), but all subtypes compare themselves nevertheless. Envy is competition, by definition.

I remember a post by @Philathea where she said she didn't like others to know she cared about how she looked. There's obviously a strategic reason behind that. That doesn't mean someone doesn't care about how they look, but that they care about others not knowing that they do. I'm not saying that 4s like competition or like to openly compete.

So, the description of 'wanting to be unique' is based on 'observation' of behavior (e.g. 'vanity of having no vanity'), not based on 'self-image' or beliefs (e.g. 'I have no vanity').

It takes genuine humility to be able to let go of a need for identity, or meaning for that matter, in order to just be.

If that sounds horrible or BS, chances are you cling to meaning or identity.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
So agreed! Before learning about the enneagram, trying to be unique is something I never would have attributed to myself, and even after it was only like "Well I guess I do this" but it was never something I would have related to on my own. I have never done anything simply because it was different. And trying to be different makes no sense. The best way I can put my lifelong mindset into words is.. "Why am I like this?". I never tried to be different, I never had to.
Exactly. I was born different.

I can admit that I've felt like "nobody" and like, once I discover something that feels like "me" I might feel a ridiculous need to have it with me at all times. For instance, my clothing style has evolved over the years, though not really changed at base.. though sometimes it's more extreme than others and the flavor and colors are matched to what I'm going through overall or my moods. If I go out to the grocery store or something, dressed like a "normal person" (perhaps I just came from a job, or borrowing clothes because I ended up somewhere) without the specific things that make me me (which might or might not be that "stand-out" but will definitely have some kind of personal mark on it) .. and then I end up being out among more people or running into people.. I might feel self-conscious that I don't "look like me," I look like I'm wearing a "human costume" and I don't feel comfortable being seen that way because it doesn't match the way I'd prefer to portray myself .... but that doesn't mean that I dress the way I do for the sake of being different - I dress that way in order to show who I am, in some small way, even if it's not drastic. And if I feel "seen" by people without my "personal mark" on me, it's embarrassing.. I feel kind of naked. I feel a bit silly admitting that but it's true. So I do have a need to wear my identity, though my identity itself is not based on what other people are doing at all - I don't rebel or comply, which would mean being 'different' or 'normal' - I seek what is me, what feels comfortable in terms of expressing myself, and being seen in a different way is embarrassing and can make me feel really uneasy and unnatural.


I have a friend who knows about the enneagram. He mistyped at 4 because he related to the feeling different/wanting to be different, and after many months he realized he was a 6.. When we would discuss the enneagram, and I would (trying to gently tell him he wasn't a 4) bring up the image and identity issues of the type, he would grab onto "image" in a very face-value way; caring about his looks, his clothes, his reputation.. in retrospect it was a clear line to 3. Interestingly he never brought up a search for meaning, or authenticity on his own. Meanwhile I have years worth of journal entries talking about "trying to be real", "I just want to be honest", and trying to find significance in every nuance of feeling.
Yes! I have the same diaries and songs and art for years and years and years. I try to find what each feeling means, why I feel that way, what's underneath, what it says about me, whether there's a pattern..blabla. It's not just a matter of expressing my feelings, but figuring out who is feeling them and why; what they point to about me; how they identify my being. And yeah, trying to be real is a huge theme. In many of my lyrics I write about, I'd rather be rejected than loved for what I'm not... in so many different words. Yet I have to keep repeating that because sometimes, it's too embarrassing or shameful to reveal my real feelings, or sometimes I don't even know how... or whether they're really deep and meaningful enough to reveal and "claim" at all... so the struggle is real. Being honest is not as easy as just "not lying." Being real is not as easy as "not faking." Being myself is not as easy as "ignoring expectations" or "not copying others."

But I've had a lot of frustration about NOT feeling like I'm being truly myself, or truly genuine, and going in circles in my heart trying to be. I don't know how to put it into words.
EXACTLY. Yes, exactly what I was just saying.

I feel like.. my life goal is to be a vessel through which my true self emerges. I imagine it emerges most clearly in art. I want to be clear - I do not associate being an artist with being a 4. There are plenty of great artists out there, of all types, who express their true feelings and selves through their art. That is usually what art is about. There are also plenty of 4s who are not artists.

But for me, I am an artist and I also happen to be a 4, and an INFP. My feelings have so many sub-feelings and nuances and colors and shades. So does my identity, my state of mind, everything. How do I express that in words ? It is a life-long struggle, and I wrote my first 400-page novels before age 12. I have always felt it's so much easier to convey a feeling in music. Or even photography, even though I can't draw and I'm not much of a visual artist. I have made SO MUCH visual art via photography and photoshop, sometimes with a few words or lyrics on the picture.. because it's a very simple way to convey a feeling very plainly, without getting lost in details the way I would if I tried to make the same simple statement in words. But since my novel became so central to me, in terms of my life goals, I decided to try harder and harder with words. That is part of why I'm on this forum.

But in general, it's hard enough to figure out who I am, and to convey it.. is what I live for. I feel like the effort to "convey it" gets me out of my head.. my inner world.. and forces me to create something out of it, which forces me to involve research, other people, skills, and honing in a presentation, which helps me integrate, because I'm actually doing something with it. And that might be why I've been so drawn to art as a means of self-expression throughout my life. I sometimes wonder though, if I was really meant to be a martial artist.... the reasons I didn't take that up as a kid are a bit complex and related to illness and background. But sometimes I feel like that is my real heart's calling, but I end up writing about characters like that instead. Anyway, it's easy for me to see how 4s could express themselves, or their ideals, through all sorts of means, or even just in private, without being artists. So I just want to be clear that when I talk about my art, I don't see that as a necessity for being a 4, but for me, it's how I get out of my frustrating search for my origin or my center.. and express myself, whatever I have found or whatever I'm still looking for..so that I turn the "internal hall of mirrors" outward.. and expand... and rejoin the world. Never fully or permanently, of course. But the need to do that is an impulse I've always had, it's just, then my art is "not good enough" and I pull back.. and on and on.

@lykanized

To respond to your post too...


About "raw" etc, I have a story from college. After I lost my voice, I had transferred colleges a few times, trying to figure out what I want to do.. and I spent one year at an art school. "Sound art" was in at that school. I studied music in a more classical, raw way..where I would write songs with just my voice and piano and my heartfelt emotions, and then arrange the rest of the instruments around it. I felt like my music had a "core sound" and it was the one thing that was really mine and fully me, and also revealed my unconscious feelings and truths and "who I am" to me most cleanly - but I couldn't sing anymore. At that time I couldn't sing through my whisper either. I've had some surgeries and also years of practice, though my voice is still only very slightly more than it was then.

They had all these "sound art" classes and I had to take one in order to take video.. or something. And this guy I was best friends with was into sound art. While I do see the value in artists like Matthew Barney putting "sound art" behind terrifying scenes, etc, there was a rejection against what I considered "beautiful/ real / raw music" among people who were into that genre. Anything that sounded good to the ear, they had to break it up and make it more mechanical. I made this little video one day in protest. It took me about an hour to make because I was just SOOO worked up.


But this is how I feel about people who use pretentious, forced trends just for the sake of being "unique" or fitting some hipster genre, instead of following their heart and creating or pursuing beauty.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #8
One doesn't need to strive for being unique, because everyone already is. I can enjoy that.
That's not what I meant at all.
What I was saying is that, for a 4 to "transcend" their fixation, they would need to stop being stuck in their fixation - which is about being somebody, being significant, which means having an identity that is meaningful to them. Basically having their own personality. And Every enneagram type is about basic human needs, so this is something that all people might need to some degree or the other, but for 4s, finding meaning and authenticity is a fixation.

This is what origin is about. Origin is not about being unique, whatsoever. Being unique might be a RESULT of looking for one's own personal origin. Because, while everyone is equally unique, everyone is also equally the same. But some people (non-4s) are not fixated by the process of finding their origin, and for some 4s, expressing it. In fact, even without a conscious attempt to "express it" the way I would as an artist, a 4 could still feel a need to DISCOVER their own origin. The paradox, or transcendent concept, is that origin is common to everyone - that we all stem from the same origin, so you don't need to find your own. But that doesn't sit right for 4s, who are inclined, instinctually, to seek their own origin. Which is their perceived "authentic self." They might know that authentic self or origin is flawed and imperfect and unlovable in nature, but it's their own. That is the fixation.

An attempt to be unique, specifically, is not really at stake. But what ends up happening is, 4s see other people losing sight of their origin, and just getting caught up in the same things that everyone else does. And in their need to be authentic or to find their own origin, they also discover their own flaws and fixate on them. They fixate on the gap between their own perceived flawed self, and their ideal self. For many 4s, the ideal self is associated with their origin, their sense that "I would have been this way naturally, but then I got fucked up." For some 4s, it's "I was born fucked up, but with a need to be something more."

Either way the fixation is around finding who they feel they really are, and striving to portray their ideal image, and being frustratingly aware of the difference between the two.

Unless a 4's ideal self is to be "different and unique" which sounds REALLY unlikely to me, since 4s think way too much about what is "real" about them to think in such shallow terms - they are unlikely to fixate much on that. They might notice however, that in their emphasis on who they really are, they stand out from others who do not spend as much time seeking inside themselves to find who they are. If other people have different fixations than the 4, those fixations will result in them focusing on something other than finding their origin or portraying their ideal self, so they MIGHT (read: MIGHT, but not necessarily WILL) be less likely to "stand out as an individual" in the same way a 4 would, simply because in their search for self a 4 doesn't have room for all the shit that everyone else gets caught up in, so their "individuality" and "What makes me ME" is at the forefront of their minds. It might frustrate a 4 that someone else, like a 7 for instance , can just BE, and still stand out so much and be so lovable and unique and whatever, while the 4 had to work so hard to find who they are and still, they don't have a strong identity or people can't see what's special about them. So there can be envy there, for sure. In fact, 4s are most likely to envy someone who they see as expressing their TRUE SELF or their IDEAL SELF better than they do. I have sometimes, sort of, envied someone who embodied some of my ideal traits.. but what I envied the most, was someone who was flawed in some similar ways that I was, but wore it on his sleeve and showed the whole world just how broken he was. He was so real and raw and honest, so lovable, so broken and human. Why can't I be... human????

So why would there be 'more meaningful' envy over other envy? Why even the need to discern type 4 'meaningful' envy from 'petty' envy? Envy is just envy. It can go way back to sibling envy, to abandonment issues.
I don't think I was talking about petty envy. I'm not sure if this is a response to something I said or something unrelated.

But, on the topic of petty envy - my opinion is that if you spend so much time focusing on "what makes me me," you're less likely to envy random common things like other people would. Because you have too firm of an idea that those 'mundane' things don't apply to your highly specific identity; your flawed self, your origin, or your ideals.

Other people who spend less time thinking about those things, basically finding and defining themselves, will not have as long a list of things that "aren't me" and "don't apply to me." So they might envy something just because it's flashy, interesting, cool etc. 2s for instance are focused on being unlovable, so they are prone to envy anyone that they feel is more lovable or gets more love than they do.

What matters is how one explains it, and how one copes with it. Some people try being better, some seek secure relations some seek to be favorite or important, some seek to be different and thus hoping to avoid being left out, or being replaced. That doesn't mean it's attachment triad, because anyone can have attachment issues. Even the dismissive avoidant.
Yes it depends why. It's all in the nuances. 9 different people (9 different types) might do the same thing for 9 different reasons. So sure, a 4 might end up fixating on their uniqueness because it's the only thing they have that's attractive or admirable about them. In fact I'd say it's common - even for me, I feel like if I tried to play the same game everyone else is playing, I'd lose.. because I'm not pretty enough / not XYZ enough... but if I have MY OWN look, I can't "lose" because who is competing with that?? And, I'm less likely to be abandoned if I'm very true to myself, because I'm irreplaceable, whereas if I'm just a generic, pretty woman who cooks and cleans and procreates, a man could replace me with any other woman who does the same. So yeah, I get that. But still, I'm not going to do something just because it's unique or "the same," I'll do it because it's me. I can relate to the sentiment of having to be ME because just being "one of them" is not a war I can win and I'd never be enough on their terms, I'd never have something that THEY "have" ... whatever it is... and I'll definitely never be "the best" at that, so I have to embody my own expression, or else I'd be abandoned the moment any of my flaws showed because I'd be so easy to replace.


Striving to be unique or special is just a competitive way of seeking to be different or significant, e.g. being 'more different' or 'more significant' than others if not 'most significant', which arguably can be attributed to Sx. (e.g. like the most significant other, the 'One')
I think I addressed that just above, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I insist on being The One, not one of many. When it comes to my relationship or any of my personal niche.

Sp is in denial of envy, like sp3 has 'vanity for having no vanity' (not to mention sp2 'pride for having no pride' or false humility). Vanity for having no vanity is for a reason. Not vocalizing suffering is also for a reason, or a strategy. Many 4s may also say that they are not competitive (perhaps except for Sx), but all subtypes compare themselves nevertheless. Envy is competition, by definition.
I never said I didn't compare myself. Comparisons - when it comes to others being anywhere near my own niche or ideal self - are pretty much a constant. I said that I wouldn't base who I am on terms like "different" vs. "common" because to me that is arbitrary. What is significant is "me" vs. "Not me."

I remember a post by @Philathea where she said she didn't like others to know she cared about how she looked. There's obviously a strategic reason behind that. That doesn't mean someone doesn't care about how they look, but that they care about others not knowing that they do. I'm not saying that 4s like competition or like to openly compete.
Yeah, I don't like others to know that I care about what they think about me. I even insisted that I didn't care about what others think of me when I first came to this forum. It's true....but only by a very, very long stretch, lol. What I really mean is that I'd rather be true to who I am and be rejected for it, than be who I'm not, and be loved for it. And that is generally how I operate. But I am very aware of what people think about me, especially those I care about... and ESPECIALLY those I desire... yet I would never want anyone to think that had any influence on WHO I AM or how I present. And when it has influence, it is MOST shameful. And sometimes , in a 'faux shameless' manner lol, I display those specific influences on my sleeve, wearing my shame for the world to see.. such as, in the case of my male alter ego, who arose as an attempt to get over a guitar-playing 7. I wasn't exactly copying him per se; I was expressing something inside of me... something that was lost when I lost my voice, and reawakened because of my envy of him. People constantly thought that it was HIM in the pictures.. because my body language resembled his so closely and we have the same hair and a similar physique. In one pic with my shirt off from the back, people thought it was him posing and asked me how I convinced him to pose, since he's against cameras. It was about the angle etc. But I couldn't help channeling him, even if "he" awakened something in me. My male alter ego has his own personality and dresses his own way, but there were elements of my ex in it, that were undeniable. And I tried to act like I didn't care. When people brought it up, I said "My male alter ego is me, my ex, my father, my brother, my male energy... what's it to you??" I was very happy that my ex saw it that way too... what was most embarrassing would have been if he thought I was copying him. And I was so aware of all this, but did it anyway, in a very "fuck you, I'm going to be me and express what I need to and put my art BEFORE my shame" type of manner. So you see.. I can relate to not wanting people to realize things, and being so ashamed of my shame that I defy it and come off shameless. On purpose.


So, the description of 'wanting to be unique' is based on 'observation' of behavior (e.g. 'vanity of having no vanity'), not based on 'self-image' or beliefs (e.g. 'I have no vanity').

It takes genuine humility to be able to let go of a need for identity, or meaning for that matter, in order to just be.

If that sounds horrible or BS, chances are you cling to meaning or identity.
I think it takes more than humility. It takes humility to tell someone how I feel about them. Letting go of a need for identity and meaning would require dying. :happy:
 

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An attempt to be unique, specifically, is not really at stake. But what ends up happening is, 4s see other people losing sight of their origin, and just getting caught up in the same things that everyone else does. And in their need to be authentic or to find their own origin, they also discover their own flaws and fixate on them. They fixate on the gap between their own perceived flawed self, and their ideal self. For many 4s, the ideal self is associated with their origin, their sense that "I would have been this way naturally, but then I got fucked up." For some 4s, it's "I was born fucked up, but with a need to be something more."
I really liked this explanation
 

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This is what origin is about. Origin is not about being unique, whatsoever. Being unique might be a RESULT of looking for one's own personal origin. Because, while everyone is equally unique, everyone is also equally the same. But some people (non-4s) are not fixated by the process of finding their origin, and for some 4s, expressing it. In fact, even without a conscious attempt to "express it" the way I would as an artist, a 4 could still feel a need to DISCOVER their own origin. The paradox, or transcendent concept, is that origin is common to everyone - that we all stem from the same origin, so you don't need to find your own. But that doesn't sit right for 4s, who are inclined, instinctually, to seek their own origin. Which is their perceived "authentic self." They might know that authentic self or origin is flawed and imperfect and unlovable in nature, but it's their own. That is the fixation.
What I've bolded is how I understand Holy Origin. However, I'm not sure if it's about 4s to "seek their own origin," or, if it's, at least for me, more about the sense of realizing how one isn't like the Other, so I'm cut off from Origin itself. It's more about abandonment as the graphic that @mimesis posted shows. The journey is to get back to understanding that you're never separated from your fellow human beings, despite your difference, because we all come from the same place. There is only one Origin.

I don't think I was talking about petty envy. I'm not sure if this is a response to something I said or something unrelated.

But, on the topic of petty envy - my opinion is that if you spend so much time focusing on "what makes me me," you're less likely to envy random common things like other people would. Because you have too firm of an idea that those 'mundane' things don't apply to your highly specific identity; your flawed self, your origin, or your ideals.

Other people who spend less time thinking about those things, basically finding and defining themselves, will not have as long a list of things that "aren't me" and "don't apply to me." So they might envy something just because it's flashy, interesting, cool etc. 2s for instance are focused on being unlovable, so they are prone to envy anyone that they feel is more lovable or gets more love than they do.
Staying stuck in "what makes me me" increases the envy, though. You have to see what you have in common with everyone else, which is something fours aren't likely to do, because they're so focused on their difference. It's about overcoming shame, because you've kept these perceived flaws hidden. Maybe once a 4 gets to a certain place, they don't feel this way, and will not see their "difference" as something bad, but instead focus on, what you say, "makes me, me." Still, I think healthy 4s would focus more on the universality of humanity rather than one's specific individuality.

Yes it depends why. It's all in the nuances. 9 different people (9 different types) might do the same thing for 9 different reasons. So sure, a 4 might end up fixating on their uniqueness because it's the only thing they have that's attractive or admirable about them. In fact I'd say it's common - even for me, I feel like if I tried to play the same game everyone else is playing, I'd lose.. because I'm not pretty enough / not XYZ enough... but if I have MY OWN look, I can't "lose" because who is competing with that?? And, I'm less likely to be abandoned if I'm very true to myself, because I'm irreplaceable, whereas if I'm just a generic, pretty woman who cooks and cleans and procreates, a man could replace me with any other woman who does the same. So yeah, I get that. But still, I'm not going to do something just because it's unique or "the same," I'll do it because it's me. I can relate to the sentiment of having to be ME because just being "one of them" is not a war I can win and I'd never be enough on their terms, I'd never have something that THEY "have" ... whatever it is... and I'll definitely never be "the best" at that, so I have to embody my own expression, or else I'd be abandoned the moment any of my flaws showed because I'd be so easy to replace.
Embrace your flaws. Be a generic, pretty woman who cooks and cleans. Be boring. Gosh, that's hard for me, too, but we also have to be these things some of the time. As Jung says, "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." Despite what you think this says about you, you can never lose your identity because by virtue of being the only person that is you, you are unique. I think this is why the drawing says 4s "Holy Idea" is Uniqueness, but it's only half the journey. Focusing on uniqueness of self only furthers separation from the Origin. You have to embrace the uniqueness of others, despite how common, boring, and mundane everyone else seems, and how that also makes one less unique as a consequence.

It's interesting because whenever I've envied someone, or never felt like I was "good enough" at the time, I later come to find that the person I desired to be was already the person I was. There is no separation between the "ideal self" and the "true self." I just can't see it at the time because the ego clouds clear perception.

I'd rather be true to who I am and be rejected for it, than be who I'm not, and be loved for it.
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

Are you sure he's not a 4?
 

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Embrace your flaws. Be a generic, pretty woman who cooks and cleans. Be boring. Gosh, that's hard for me, too, but we also have to be these things some of the time.
She isn't saying that she avoids that stereotype because it's 'boring', it just isn't part of who she is. It feels like you're saying in order to transcend, a 4 should randomly pick out something mundane and boring and do it. The point is not to consider whether something is boring or not.. but to just be
 

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She isn't saying that she avoids that stereotype because it's 'boring', it just isn't part of who she is. It feels like you're saying in order to transcend, a 4 should randomly pick out something mundane and boring and do it. The point is not to consider whether something is boring or not.. but to just be
I understand that, but focusing on what's ME vs NOT ME is signs of a fixated 4. Everyone has to clean and cook some of the time. The point is to not see it as part of your identity. A transcended 4 actually has no identity and is OK with it (unlike the unhealthy 4 who has no identity and hates himself for it), because he or she is ONE with everyone. So, yeah, my advice to 4s is be a bore like everyone else who you falsely believe isn't as interesting as you. It's the last thing 4s want to do, though.
 

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That's not what I meant at all.
What I was saying is that, for a 4 to "transcend" their fixation, they would need to stop being stuck in their fixation - which is about being somebody, being significant, which means having an identity that is meaningful to them. Basically having their own personality. And Every enneagram type is about basic human needs, so this is something that all people might need to some degree or the other, but for 4s, finding meaning and authenticity is a fixation.

This is what origin is about. Origin is not about being unique, whatsoever. Being unique might be a RESULT of looking for one's own personal origin. Because, while everyone is equally unique, everyone is also equally the same. But some people (non-4s) are not fixated by the process of finding their origin, and for some 4s, expressing it. In fact, even without a conscious attempt to "express it" the way I would as an artist, a 4 could still feel a need to DISCOVER their own origin. The paradox, or transcendent concept, is that origin is common to everyone - that we all stem from the same origin, so you don't need to find your own. But that doesn't sit right for 4s, who are inclined, instinctually, to seek their own origin. Which is their perceived "authentic self." They might know that authentic self or origin is flawed and imperfect and unlovable in nature, but it's their own. That is the fixation.

An attempt to be unique, specifically, is not really at stake. But what ends up happening is, 4s see other people losing sight of their origin, and just getting caught up in the same things that everyone else does. And in their need to be authentic or to find their own origin, they also discover their own flaws and fixate on them. They fixate on the gap between their own perceived flawed self, and their ideal self. For many 4s, the ideal self is associated with their origin, their sense that "I would have been this way naturally, but then I got fucked up." For some 4s, it's "I was born fucked up, but with a need to be something more."

Either way the fixation is around finding who they feel they really are, and striving to portray their ideal image, and being frustratingly aware of the difference between the two.
Okay, the fixation, (in particular of Sx) surrounds being 'unique' or 'special', and the Trap (authenticity) is what keeps a type stuck in fixation (and belief or self-image of being "defective, different or special" [Paula Raines]). Overall I agree with what you are trying to convey, but that's how a 4 escapes this fixation.

Part of this notion of being 'unique' is the narrative of 'being misunderstood', (or even 'misunderstood genius', as Naranjo referred to in case of Sx), which I believe is rooted in the premise that one needs to know all (the suffering) a 4 had gone through to understand them. And basically having to know all the narratives the 4 uses to understand themselves.

Prince said:
On whether white people understand his art

“No, of course they don’t. How many black people understand? White people are very good at categorising things – and if you tell them anything they’ll remember it, write books about it. But understand? You have to live a life to understand it. Tourists just pass through.” To Carol Cooper, the Face, June 1983.
And either anyone who disagrees or criticizes simply 'doesn't understand', or anyone suggesting to understand how they feel could imply their suffering isn't something noble or exceptional. So basically, damned if they do and damned if they don't. I mean, as part of the type's fixation and the process of alienation on the long run.

Unless a 4's ideal self is to be "different and unique" which sounds REALLY unlikely to me, since 4s think way too much about what is "real" about them to think in such shallow terms - they are unlikely to fixate much on that. They might notice however, that in their emphasis on who they really are, they stand out from others who do not spend as much time seeking inside themselves to find who they are. If other people have different fixations than the 4, those fixations will result in them focusing on something other than finding their origin or portraying their ideal self, so they MIGHT (read: MIGHT, but not necessarily WILL) be less likely to "stand out as an individual" in the same way a 4 would, simply because in their search for self a 4 doesn't have room for all the shit that everyone else gets caught up in, so their "individuality" and "What makes me ME" is at the forefront of their minds. It might frustrate a 4 that someone else, like a 7 for instance , can just BE, and still stand out so much and be so lovable and unique and whatever, while the 4 had to work so hard to find who they are and still, they don't have a strong identity or people can't see what's special about them. So there can be envy there, for sure. In fact, 4s are most likely to envy someone who they see as expressing their TRUE SELF or their IDEAL SELF better than they do. I have sometimes, sort of, envied someone who embodied some of my ideal traits.. but what I envied the most, was someone who was flawed in some similar ways that I was, but wore it on his sleeve and showed the whole world just how broken he was. He was so real and raw and honest, so lovable, so broken and human. Why can't I be... human????
Perhaps because a 4 focuses too much on what they are not, or to define and identify themselves with what they are not? Sometimes so much that they might believe they suffer more than others. This imbalance and focus on the 'negative' or 'negation' (rather than what we have in common) is the loss of the virtue of Equanimity.

Truth is that you are very human, no more and no less, in good ways and bad ways (like all of us), if you don't mind me saying so. ;)


I don't think I was talking about petty envy. I'm not sure if this is a response to something I said or something unrelated.

But, on the topic of petty envy - my opinion is that if you spend so much time focusing on "what makes me me," you're less likely to envy random common things like other people would. Because you have too firm of an idea that those 'mundane' things don't apply to your highly specific identity; your flawed self, your origin, or your ideals.

Other people who spend less time thinking about those things, basically finding and defining themselves, will not have as long a list of things that "aren't me" and "don't apply to me." So they might envy something just because it's flashy, interesting, cool etc. 2s for instance are focused on being unlovable, so they are prone to envy anyone that they feel is more lovable or gets more love than they do.

Yes it depends why. It's all in the nuances. 9 different people (9 different types) might do the same thing for 9 different reasons. So sure, a 4 might end up fixating on their uniqueness because it's the only thing they have that's attractive or admirable about them. In fact I'd say it's common - even for me, I feel like if I tried to play the same game everyone else is playing, I'd lose.. because I'm not pretty enough / not XYZ enough... but if I have MY OWN look, I can't "lose" because who is competing with that?? And, I'm less likely to be abandoned if I'm very true to myself, because I'm irreplaceable, whereas if I'm just a generic, pretty woman who cooks and cleans and procreates, a man could replace me with any other woman who does the same. So yeah, I get that. But still, I'm not going to do something just because it's unique or "the same," I'll do it because it's me. I can relate to the sentiment of having to be ME because just being "one of them" is not a war I can win and I'd never be enough on their terms, I'd never have something that THEY "have" ... whatever it is... and I'll definitely never be "the best" at that, so I have to embody my own expression, or else I'd be abandoned the moment any of my flaws showed because I'd be so easy to replace.
Well, this has been discussed more often, you discussed this on the Sx board recently and you also mentioned @OrangeAppled . So I figured it was good to make that clear.

The envy we speak of is not the simplistic envy you mention though. That's a major point too. It's a longing for significance and connection, etc, not petty resentment over praise or shallow features.
So aside from the quotes of Naranjo, think about it this way. How long do you want to go back in time to trace back the root of Envy? When did you start thinking about even the word 'significance' or 'alienate' or ponder about feeling 'disconnected' or 'insignificant', or what is 'petty' and what isn't? Or do you think these things started at puberty or adolescence? I think these things were already in process at a 'preverbal' level, meaning even before we expressed ourselves in words. 4s do focus on intrinsic significance, which is part why they may end up as artists. But it is also why they identify with the feeling of emptiness when comparing themselves to others. And it can be really anything at a young age, whatever makes them feel 'they are not...' and define themselves based on 'what isn't'. Likewise, the disconnection is also a process, and a disposition that can get *worse* because of dominant focus (caused by Envy) and perpetuating self-fulfilling prophecies, reinforcing false beliefs.

4s can envy a loving couple, and they are labelled 'tragic romantic' for a reason (the difference is in how it is 'understood' or translated to a self-image, like how a traumatic early childhood experience of abandonment is translated to 'personal (intrinsic) insignificance' - or fear of personal insignificance at a preverbal level translates to fear of (re-experiencing) childhood abandonment (experienced like the world or self is falling apart) triggering learned coping styles, depending on instinct).

The sx4 'Prima Donna' or 'Diva' is like wanting to be everyone's best friend, or 'number One' if not 'the only One'. Obviously at an unhealthy level, and disintegrating to sx2 'Femme Fatale' or 'Don Juan' behavior, obsessed with what he cannot have.
 

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@Philathea, here's some quotes speaking to this aspect of 4s: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-individualist-overview-of-type-four/

This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art.
Compared to average 4s:

Fours find it difficult to transcend self-consciousness because just the reverse is what they want: to become more conscious of their states and feelings so that they can find themselves and arrive at a firm sense of identity. But as they become more self-conscious, Fours become increasingly drawn into unresolved, contradictory, and irrational feelings which they want to sort out before they dare express them.
As Fours become more fearful that they cannot find a solid identity in themselves, they begin to create one out of whatever random tendencies they find. Thus, matters of taste, likes and dislikes, and emotional reactions become the materials which Fours use to construct an identity. Because their sense of self is so tenuous, however, Fours begin to put a great deal of weight on what would be for others relatively unimportant traits. (“I only wear black.” “I listen to Puccini, but never Wagner.”) It is important to note that most of these personal traits function by negation. Fours may not know who they are, but they certainly believe they know who they are not. While these idiosyncrasies can be fairly harmless in and of themselves, as Fours increasingly depend on them to figure out who they are, they begin to paint themselves into a corner. In the interest of maintain a narrowly defined self-image, Fours may refuse to engage in many basic activities necessary to live their lives. (“Poets don’t work in an office.”)
 

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So, yeah, my advice to 4s is be a bore like everyone else who you falsely believe isn't as interesting as you.
Um..

I have never thought about people as being as "interesting" as me, or not. How interesting they are, really isn't my concern. I don't understand what "like everyone else" even means. Each person is an individual. How "boring" we are depends on how we are perceived. One person might find me boring while someone else might find me interesting. Like most people, if I find myself feeling unsatisfied with myself or my life, I try to work on that, to focus on something that interests or inspires me. Isn't that just generally a good thing to do?? Why would 4s be exempt from that?

There are just so many meaningless and illogical statements here that I don't know where to begin.

- Being "like everyone else" means nothing because each person is different.
- Being "a bore" has a different meaning to each person.
- Who says 4s think everyone else is boring? Maybe some 4s feel that others have a more interesting life than they do? Maybe some 4s feel like they aren't really living at times? Isn't that part of the human condition?

Also, the idea of "falsely believing others aren't as interesting" is so weird to me. I mean.. every person, regardless of the type, is likely to pursue what interests them. So obviously, the things that interest them are more interesting to them than the things that interest other people.


I am just so confused about how this statement could make any sense in any context whatsoever.
 

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Um..

I have never thought about people as being as "interesting" as me, or not. How interesting they are, really isn't my concern. I don't understand what "like everyone else" even means. Each person is an individual. How "boring" we are depends on how we are perceived. One person might find me boring while someone else might find me interesting. Like most people, if I find myself feeling unsatisfied with myself or my life, I try to work on that, to focus on something that interests or inspires me. Isn't that just generally a good thing to do?? Why would 4s be exempt from that?

There are just so many meaningless and illogical statements here that I don't know where to begin.

- Being "like everyone else" means nothing because each person is different.
- Being "a bore" has a different meaning to each person.
- Who says 4s think everyone else is boring? Maybe some 4s feel that others have a more interesting life than they do? Maybe some 4s feel like they aren't really living at times? Isn't that part of the human condition?

Also, the idea of "falsely believing others aren't as interesting" is so weird to me. I mean.. every person, regardless of the type, is likely to pursue what interests them. So obviously, the things that interest them are more interesting to them than the things that interest other people.

I am just so confused about how this statement could make any sense in any context whatsoever.
Illogical and meaningless? That's a little harsh. How can you say you don't understand what the phrase "like everyone else" means, and then a few sentences later say, in reference to yourself, "Like most people..."? That's really a minor point, but what I meant by my statement about being boring is to embrace your inner Everyman: https://ninepaths.com/2012/11/02/type-4-embrace-your-inner-everyman/

COME AS YOU ARE

What happens when 4s recognize that, although they are indeed special in some ways, there are other ways in which they are just like everyone else?
One thing they discover is that they don’t have to put so much energy into creating a unique image so instead they can put that energy to more truly creative uses. They may also find out that they can relate to people more easily, that much of the rejection they “experience” is in the eye of the beholder, and that intimacy and drama are not synonymous.


When 4s embrace their Inner Everyman, they can stop trying so hard to project and protect their image. They can come as they are to the party the common folk are throwing. They will always be recognized and appreciated for the unique qualities they contribute, but they won’t have to hang out on the sidelines forever, sitting out all the dances.
As you discuss in another thread you've started, this is exactly what I'm talking about:

Contrarily, I'll disclose endlessly about my ideas and inner life. (I would never post about specific people as airing dirty laundry that involves others is not ok with me.) But, I post *my* inner life. Metaphors, art, photos, songs, words, anything - I love finding creative ways to express the intricacies of my feelings and thoughts. I love sharing and seeing art, deep personal disclosure, beauty, pain, social causes and so forth. But I have this "ugh" reaction when I see people posting mundane things - like what they ate that day, how much work sucked, etc - and when I see my friend posting about the specific ups and downs of her illness each day... I can see the value in it objectively, but I just can't fathom doing it. I simply do not feel the need to publicize the typical and mundane events in my every day life.


Does anyone else relate to that? Is it a 4 thing, or a low sensing thing, that sharing things that are mundane and not "OF MY INNER LIFE" (unless it's related to a "cause" ) would make me cringe, or just wouldn't enter my mind at all? Lol. How do you guys feel about this topic and operate on social media, or in your social life in general?
I really don't mean in the context of your illness, but the general statement that you cringe at the mundane things others share. I'm guilty of it too, but I become more disheartened when I post something "deep" on social media and no one notices, while those who post pictures of their kids, as just one example, get all the recognition. A healthy 4 doesn't cringe or become disheartened, but embraces everything no matter how boring or mundane it is, because it's actually those things that are most true and beautiful, and connects one to a common humanity. He or she learns to say "Yes to Life" and to all of it: To life as it is, not as we wish it to be, or hoped it would be. I suppose it doesn't make sense, but from a higher perspective it does, and has the power to transform one's negative feelings of exclusion and sense of disconnection.

Another helpful article from the same website: https://ninepaths.com/2013/01/25/in-the-shadow-of-type-4-ordinariness/
 

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I understand that, but focusing on what's ME vs NOT ME is signs of a fixated 4. Everyone has to clean and cook some of the time. The point is to not see it as part of your identity. A transcended 4 actually has no identity and is OK with it (unlike the unhealthy 4 who has no identity and hates himself for it), because he or she is ONE with everyone. So, yeah, my advice to 4s is be a bore like everyone else who you falsely believe isn't as interesting as you. It's the last thing 4s want to do, though.
This reminds me of an argument I had with my partner recently.

We were discussing our finances as we are saving up to buy our own house and my partner suggested that I should start thinking about what kind of job/career I'd be interested in pursuing after my visa application has been accepted (I'm in the middle of migrating). He made a comment about me getting some kind of office job as they are quite common and fairly well paid. I completely lost it when he said this. I got very angry and I shouted at him, "I could NEVER be an office drone! How dare you suggest that I give up WHO I AM for money!"...and then I burst out crying. >_>

I've had this issue with work my whole life; my sense of identity becomes attached to it, and as soon as something doesn't feel right, or I feel pressured to be something I'm not, I get frustrated and rage-quit, lol. I've spent many hours wallowing in self pity thinking about how there will never be a place for me in society, and that I will be forced to eventually sell my soul and become a slave, lol. It also reminds me of a story my Mother told me about when I was 6-5 years old; she told me to go tidy my room and I exclaimed, "but I wasn't born to it!" (In my teens I also had a huge poster on my wall that said, "Why should I tidy my room when the world is in such a mess?!") :p

I'm currently what you might call a "house-wife" (well, I'm about to get married in just under two weeks). I do my best to keep up with housework, etc, but I do struggle. Sometimes my partner comes home and I throw a little tantrum and cry in his arms and wail about how, "unfair" it is, and how "unfulfilling" it is cleaning the toilet, LOL. It's like I have this obsession that everything has to have some kind of deeper meaning and significance.

Having said that, learning to clean the bathroom toilet without taking it "personally" has certainly been a humbling experience. :p
 

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Um..

- Being "like everyone else" means nothing because each person is different.
So, each person comes from another planet? Or are some more from another planet than others? Or perhaps I should ask, what coming from another planet means? (Not that I can't relate but to make a point).

Ichazo said:
Fixation
Type 4 melancholy surrounds a lack of emotional fulfillment that longs for what isn't and disparages what is.

Trap
Type 4 authenticity is derived from being true to an inner emotional reality that distinguishes oneself from others.

Holy Origin
The type 4 trap seeks an authentic sense of self by cultivating an emotional uniqueness that stands apart from others. Holy origin points to a more inherent unfolding of one's own uniqueness in the universe without having to distinguish oneself by cultivating that uniqueness.

Passion
Type 4 envy notices how others have what I don't because others are more capable than I am. It's a comparison of the positive in others with the negative in the self.

Virtue
Type 4 equanimity arises when you see both your positive and negatives equally. The half-truth of envy loses its validity when you stop comparing the positives of others with the negatives of the self.

Sp 4: Dauntless – autonomous, counter-dependent; refuses to be a victim.
So 4: Shame – fears not measuring up to social standards and being seen as defective.
Sx 4: Competition – envious comparisons of self to other may produce hatred of other or sense of inadequacy in self.

http://davesenneagram.com/d7/daves-guide-enneagram/oscar-ichazos-ego-types
 

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What I've bolded is how I understand Holy Origin. However, I'm not sure if it's about 4s to "seek their own origin," or, if it's, at least for me, more about the sense of realizing how one isn't like the Other, so I'm cut off from Origin itself. It's more about abandonment as the graphic that @mimesis posted shows. The journey is to get back to understanding that you're never separated from your fellow human beings, despite your difference, because we all come from the same place. There is only one Origin.
^^The above is more how I experience being a four. I dont wish to be searching for meaning or wish to be unique. I actually would strongly desire to be more normal and like everyone else. However I can self-observe and see the separation between what is "normal" and what I am and the gap leaves a very strange sense of heartache. I suspect that I know society wants that "normal" and I will never be that "normal" so I am left with a constant sense that I have failed and thus am unwanted.

As I have aged, there is a sense that maybe that which I define as "normal" is actual a overly simplified version of an internal ideal and I judge myself more harshly than society. In addition there is the notion that most people dont do this process of self-observation-thus I have the gift and curse of being able to do so....so am judging myself in a way others simply cant judge themselves and I question if the judgments are even fair in that respect.

There is also something about claiming what is mine is spite of how others feel. The more I do that, the more I unify the observer with the observed and can reach that origin.
 
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