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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Out of curiosity, I'm wanting to know specifically from parents if you find this ok:

When your infant or toddler cries, do you leave them in their rooms alone to cry because you think they're being brats, or just wanting attention? Do you think there is a reason they are crying or screaming, and banging on things? If yes, or no, can you please explain why? Non parents are free to answer, too.
 

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It will depend on the situation,
Some children are naturally temperamental,
So encouraging such outbursts for no valid reason would be reinforcing a bad behavior.

Though I'd first make sure everything was alright.
 

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Not thinking that babies are inherently spiteful or conniving, I always initially assume that the distress is real. Besides, they need to be secure in knowing that someone is watching out for them in order to develop confidence and trust. I raised my kids that way and they are turning out well (so far).

My mom STILL tells the story of me, uncharacteristically, throwing a screaming fit from my crib, while my father insisted they ignore it to teach me a lesson. When they eventually caved and checked, I had my fingers so tangled in the strings of mobile to the point that the flesh was almost black. Apparently, that was the last time that either parent made a baby "cry it out".

Of course, older children might be inventive enough to abuse crying to get their way. Parents need to manage that on a case by case basis. It's tricky balancing the "I will always be here when you need" vs the child "crying wolf". I sincerely do not think the very young capable of such machinations though.
 

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As the older sister to two sisters and three brothers to me that kind of behavior (even if there is a legitimate reason behind it) shouldn't be tolerated and should be taken care of quick and fast... they need help learning how to cope differently to certain distresses than that...

It makes me gravitate in thinking this has a big role of kids now thinking they are entitled to everything and when they do throw their own tantrum it is okay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I believe children should not be ignored. They have sensitive ear drums and emotions. A friend of mine used to tell me to ignore her 3 year old because if I gave her attention, she'd be up ALL night and never sleep and scream even louder. I went into the daughter's room one night and looked her in the eyes and firmly, and gently said "Please stop screaming" and she closed her mouth and continued to cry, and I held her and hummed a lullaby and she fell asleep within 30 minutes. This child was very 'bratty' as her mother explained, and I would often see her throw her poop on the floor, poop on the floor because her mom ignored her, and hit people and scream at the top of her lungs for 3 hours at a time until she slept. She would get spanked and sent to her room for hours while her mother would have sex with her boyfriend. They did this every day.

I remember feeling overwhelmed babysitting her daughter because I hadn't slept in two days due to anxiety, so I put her on the bed an we watched tv, quietly and I talked to her like an actual human instead of locking her up in the room.
@Zster

An ex friend of mine had a 1 year old and every one of her fingers one night looked like tiny swollen hot dogs because she kept wrapping her hair around her fingers for some reason, and they started looking blue, and her mother freaked out so bad, but continued to ignore her, she would actually sleep through her one year old's screaming in the morning. I don't know if you have ever heard a new born cry...but that shit can actually hurt your ears, and I would wake up wondering wtf..while my friend just slept through it. I would say "Arent you going to check on her??" She'd say "Nah, I can sleep through it, just go to sleep, she'll be ok" I think leaving a baby in a room, even a toddler is abusive just because a person doesn't want to deal with the crying. Little kids usually cry for a reason. Smh.
 

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At least you should go take a look when a child cries, even if you eventually judge that they are simply crying because they are hungry and that they can wait for a bit in order to have their food at their regular time. But you should at least check up on them; this does not mean that you should always do something, but just that you should see if they are crying for some special reason or not. Human beings, and children too, can cry just because they want unnecessary attention, but they can also cry because they actually need something; we all have such needs. And I do not think that you can always tell from the crying whether they actually need your attention or not. You need to determine this by going to them and judging the situation you find them in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
At least you should go take a look when a child cries, even if you eventually judge that they are simply crying because they are hungry and that they can wait for a bit in order to have their food at their regular time. But you should at least check up on them; this does not mean that you should always do something, but just that you should see if they are crying for some special reason or not. Human beings, and children too, can cry just because they want unnecessary attention, but they can also cry because they actually need something; we all have such needs. And I do not think that you can always tell from the crying whether they actually need your attention or not. You need to determine this by going to them and judging the situation you find them in.
Yeah, because babies can tell you "I want unnecessary attention" and that is never the case with babies, because babies cry always for a good reason and if it's because of attention, why is that so bad? Human beings crave attention because they really need love.
 

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Check them, but ignore them for around 15 - 20 minutes.

Generally, babies will scream when they have a genuine problem; it doesn't take long for them to draw a connection between making loud noises and getting attention however. Ignoring them for a bit nips this problem in the bud.

@chip with your friend's toddler, I get the impression her playing up is from factors *outside* of being ignored when crying. If a small child isn't given much positive attention, they will do bad things to get the reaction they crave - throwing poop around is probably the only way she knows to get mommy to really sit up and take notice.
 

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I am not a parent yet, but I firmly believe that leaving a child to cry unattended is neglectful and cruel.

It also causes lasting psychological harm.

Dangers of
What does 'crying it out' actually do to the baby and to the dyad?

Neuronal interconnections are damaged.
When the baby is greatly distressed,it creates conditions for damge to synapses, network construction which occur very rapidly in the infant brain. The hormone cortisol is released. In excess, it's a neuron killer which many not be apparent immediately (Thomas et al. 2007). A full-term baby (40-42 weeks), with only 25% of its brain developed, is undergoing rapid brain growth. The brain grows on average three times as large by the end of the first year (and head size growth in the first year is a sign ofintelligence, e.g., Gale et al., 2006). Who knows what neurons are not being connected or being wiped out during times of extreme stress? What deficits might show up years later from such regular distressful experience? (See my addendum below.)


Disordered stress reactivity can be established as a pattern for life not only in the brain with the stress response system (Bremmer et al, 1998), but also in the body through the vagus nerve, a nerve that affects functioning in multiple systems (e.g., digestion). For example, prolonged distress in early life, resulting in a poorly functioning vagus nerve, is related disorders as irritable bowel syndrome (Stam et al, 1997). See more about how early stress is toxic for lifelong health from the recent Harvard report, The Foundations of Lifelong Health are Built in Early Childhood).


Self-regulation is undermined. The baby is absolutely dependent on caregivers for learning how to self-regulate. Responsive care---meeting the baby's needs before he gets distressed---tunes the body and brain up for calmness. When a baby gets scared and a parent holds and comforts him, the baby builds expectations for soothing, which get integrated into the ability to self comfort. Babies don't self-comfort in isolation. If they are left to cry alone, they learn to shut down in face of extensive distress--stop growing, stop feeling, stop trusting (Henry & Wang, 1998).


Trust is undermined. As Erik Erikson pointed out, the first year of life is a sensitive period for establishing a sense of trust in the world, the world of caregiver and the world of self. When a baby's needs are met without distress, the child learns that the world is a trustworthy place, that relationships are supportive, and that the self is a positive entity that can get its needs met. When a baby's needs are dismissed or ignored, the child develops a sense of mistrust of relationships and the world. And self-confidence is undermined. The child may spend a lifetime trying to fill the inner emptiness.


Caregiver sensitivity may be harmed. A caregiver who learns to ignore baby crying, will likely learn to ignore the more subtle signaling of the child's needs. Second-guessing intuitions to stop child distress, the adult who ignores baby needs practices and increasingly learns to "harden the heart." The reciprocity between caregiver and baby is broken by the adult, but cannot be repaired by the young child. The baby is helpless.


Caregiver responsiveness to the needs of the baby is related to most if not all positive child outcomes. In our work caregiver responsiveness is related to intelligence, empathy, lack of aggression ordepression, self-regulation, social competence. Because responsiveness is so powerful, we have to control for it in our studies of other parenting practices and child outcomes. The importance of caregiver responsivness is common knowledge in developmental psychology Lack of responsiveness, which "crying it out" represents. can result in the opposite of the afrementioned positive outcomes.
The 'cry it out' approach seems to have arisen as a solution to the dissolution of extended family life in the 20th century. The vast wisdom of grandmothers was lost in the distance between households with children and those with the experience and expertise about how to raise them well. The wisdom of keeping babies happy was lost between generations.
What You Need To Know About Crying-It-Out | Evolutionary Parenting | Breastfeeding and Sleeping Arrangements - Science and History in Parenting
Even more telling, though, was that while the infants had ceased crying while going to sleep, presumably having learned to “self-settle”, their cortisol levels continued to spike. In fact, their cortisol levels were exactly the same as they were on day one when they were separated from their mother and everyone acknowledged the infant was in distress. So while they stopped showing any outward display of distress, internally they were highly stressed. This puts a wrench in the popular notion that the stress response for a baby undergoing CIO only lasts as long as the crying does. As the authors’ state:
“Although infants exhibited no behavioral cue that they were experiencing distress at the transition to sleep, the infants continued to experience high levels of physiological distress, as reflected in their cortisol scores.”
Educating the Experts - Lesson One: Crying | Evolutionary Parenting | Breastfeeding and Sleeping Arrangements - Science and History in Parenting
So you can teach your child not to cry by conditioning them to not cry. Not responding to them will tell them that their cries will not get them what they need. While you all may view this as a positive, it has a very serious consequence – learned helplessness. The concept of learned helplessness was devised by Martin Seligman in response to behaviorism. Seligman had been doing work with dogs and found that they were not behaving the way behaviorism would predict they should when conditioned[16]. Specifically, he tested dogs who were conditioned to electrical shocks. In two of the groups, the dogs were tethered together such that only one had control over when the electrical shocks would end; to the other dog, it was seemingly random. Seligman (and Maier, his partner in these experiments) found that the group of dogs who did not have control over ending the shocks displayed behaviour much like clinical depression in adults. Furthermore, when these dogs were then given a situation which they did have control over, they failed to act – they simply sat down and gave up. These results have been replicated with other animals, including babies (though in a benign paradigm)[17], all with the same findings – once animals and infants have learned that they do not have control, they cease to attempt to affect their surroundings, even when the surroundings change. Crying it out, strict schedules, and simply behaving as though an infant is attempting to manipulate will lead to the removal of control a child has over his or her environment. Crying is the main form of control an infant has and needs to be treated with the respect we would show another adult talking to us about what they need. And while experiments have not been done that put an infant in harm’s way, noted psychologist Dr. Kevin Nugent has found many depressive symptoms in babies whose communication with their parents is lacking. Parents who are unable to respond to or are simply non-responsive to their infant’s attempts at communication have babies who display classic signs of major depression[18].
In short, not responding to an infant’s attempt at communication will cause them to give up at the very least and possibly demonstrate long-term learned helplessness. This type of non-crying is damaging to a baby’s long-term psychological well-being, no matter how beneficial it may be for mom and dad in the present moment.
Educating the Experts - Lesson Two: Needs | Evolutionary Parenting | Breastfeeding and Sleeping Arrangements - Science and History in Parenting
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Check them, but ignore them for around 15 - 20 minutes.

Generally, babies will scream when they have a genuine problem; it doesn't take long for them to draw a connection between making loud noises and getting attention however. Ignoring them for a bit nips this problem in the bud.

@chip with your friend's toddler, I get the impression her playing up is from factors *outside* of being ignored when crying. If a small child isn't given much positive attention, they will do bad things to get the reaction they crave - throwing poop around is probably the only way she knows to get mommy to really sit up and take notice.
Her daughter threw her poop because her mother slept all day and had sex with her boyfriend until 1 pm. The daughter filled up her diaper with poop until her diaper was uncomfortable for her, and her poop was big enough to fit into a toilet, so her own mother was too lazy and neglectful to even potty train her. The mother has custody of the child but gave her daughter to her sister.
 

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Her daughter threw her poop because her mother slept all day and had sex with her boyfriend until 1 pm. The daughter filled up her diaper with poop until her diaper was uncomfortable for her, and her poop was big enough to fit into a toilet, so her own mother was too lazy and neglectful to even potty train her. The mother has custody of the child but gave her daughter to her sister.
Your friend is a terrible person.

That is all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

These studies should be a huge indicator why it's never ok to neglect your child or ASSUME they are being sneaky, tricky etc. If they are, it's because they've been ignored often.
 

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Yeah, because babies can tell you "I want unnecessary attention" and that is never the case with babies, because babies cry always for a good reason and if it's because of attention, why is that so bad? Human beings crave attention because they really need love.
'Babies always cry for a good reason,' is as much an interpretation you choose as the interpretation that babies do not always cry for a good reason. What constitutes a 'good reason' is something you need to judge for yourself, even if all reasons are judged as good reasons by you. And, no, babies cannot tell you their reasons, which is exactly why you need to judge for yourself. However, if a baby cries because it has cramps, and you know, babies get cramps often, then you cannot just solve that by giving them attention; hence, 'unnecessary attention'. I also did not say that unnecessary should not be given, merely that it need not necessarily be given, so I do not understand your hostility. My words are compatible with yours, even if I do not go to the extreme of saying that babies always cry for a good reason, which is a judgement that is not necessarily true. Judge for yourself is what I say; what is your problem with that, exactly?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
'Babies always cry for a good reason,' is as much an interpretation you choose as the interpretation that babies do not always cry for a good reason. What constitutes a 'good reason' is something you need to judge for yourself, even if all reasons are judged as good reasons by you. And, no, babies cannot tell you their reasons, which is exactly why you need to judge for yourself. However, if a baby cries because it has cramps, and you know, babies get cramps often, then you cannot just solve that by giving them attention; hence, 'unnecessary attention'. I also did not say that unnecessary should not be given, merely that it need not necessarily be given, so I do not understand your hostility. My words are compatible with yours, even if I do not go to the extreme of saying that babies always cry for a good reason, which is a judgement that is not necessarily true. Judge for yourself is what I say; what is your problem with that, exactly?

I'm sorry but when you give a baby attention when it has a cramp, that is not unnecessary. You can massage your child if it's hurting, or take it to a doctor. Infants cannot talk so they end up crying to let you know that they are cold, in pain, uncomfortable, need love and affection, and attention of some sort and I don't believe babies and children are manipulative, and if they seem that way, it is only because the parent has ignored them enough and made them feel like they are not even real. I would be sneaky, too if my parents did that to me.
 

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I'm sorry but when you give a baby attention when it has a cramp, that is not unnecessary. You can massage your child if it's hurting, or take it to a doctor. Infants cannot talk so they end up crying to let you know that they are cold, in pain, uncomfortable, need love and affection, and attention of some sort(...)
I really only disagree with the first sentence here. It is unnecessary; the child will not die or suffer seriously bad consequences from you not giving them attention in that situation, under normal circumstances. That is not to say that you should not give them that attention, merely that you cannot protect your child from common physiological processes that are normal for growing children. What are you gonna do? Give the baby so much love and care that the baby's biology is going to change? I mean, I do not see why you call that necessary, and I think you are simply being hostile here. It is necessary that the baby is fed, gets enough attention to not suffer from any lack of attention in its development, and generally be a happy baby. But there is such a thing as being overprotective and over-nurturing, and every parent may be overprotective and over-nurturing, sure, but that is not necessary.

(...)and I don't believe babies and children are manipulative, and if they seem that way, it is only because the parent has ignored them enough and made them feel like they are not even real. I would be sneaky, too if my parents did that to me.
I did not say they were manipulative.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I really only disagree with the first sentence here. It is unnecessary; the child will not die or suffer seriously bad consequences from you not giving them attention in that situation, under normal circumstances. That is not to say that you should not give them that attention, merely that you cannot protect your child from common physiological processes that are normal for growing children. What are you gonna do? Give the baby so much love and care that the baby's biology is going to change? I mean, I do not see why you call that necessary, and I think you are simply being hostile here. It is necessary that the baby is fed, gets enough attention to not suffer from any lack of attention in its development, and generally be a happy baby. But there is such a thing as being overprotective and over-nurturing, and every parent may be overprotective and over-nurturing, sure, but that is not necessary.



I did not say they were manipulative.

Please stop assuming I am hostile just because I disagree with you. You give your child attention when it has a cramp because it deserves love and attention, because babies are very fragile.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Your friend is a terrible person.

That is all.
Not sure why she is still on my buddy list on fb. She considers me as her best friend because everyone leaves her life and abandons her. I feel sorry for her, though. She had a child with a person she hates and now she is extremely depressed 247 and is suicidal.
 
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