[jd_]

I am just wondering, from the Fi GURUS, if my thoughts on the nature of Fi/Fe are correct here... or if you think Fi means something entirely different? I just posted this in an INTP thread, for somebody who thought they were testing Fi.


Also, Fi *conclusions* could come to the same *conclusions* as Ti... not always, but they will. The thing is Fi will also also often know and STRUGGLE with the Te 'objective' logical answer... at least balanced ones will. They might know the "logical thing to do" Te clear as day, they just don't like USING Te on people, such as making decisions in the outer world, being a judger of people such as a lawyer/judge/cop would do. They are very bad with, and wouldn't want to EXERCISE an outer objective logic on people if it means violating their internal Fi values. This is why the question of Mercy over Justice is so fitting in the determinations. I would assume it is also why an Fi type would hate utilitarian philosophy for instance (very Te) and possibly even disagree with Kantian deontological ethics (very Ti)

Again also, Fi shouldn't be correlated with emotions, especially roller coaster emotions... which often does on here, and why you have all these people going through emotional phases testing as F's. Fi is more about the understanding of supreme personal values and moral implications of the human condition. Fi usually picks what is *right* for the individual, often something transcendent and *pure* hence "idealism", while Fe picks what is going to work best for the *group*.

You could view Fi as an internal building system, for the ultimate moral truth of your personal journey, while Fe would be seeking the ultimate harmony for everybody and what values correlate with everybody at a more broad level. An Fi user would be: I know all of my morals and values are correct, and I am going to follow them regardless if everybody else isn't as moral/enlightened as I am. The Fe user would be: I seek harmony, and don't want conflict, so I am going to find a group compromise Fe Value, and seek to always establish harmony, b/c that is what I feel is more important, sacrificing my personal desires for the group.

The problem for Fi users having this system internalized and dominant, is they aren't always expressing this to other people... For people they don't think they can trust with these very strong values, they might just use an outward Te dealing with them, while in actuality they are boiling inside. So they might just have to put on their Te face to the outer world at the office, and this kind of thing drains them to no end. This is why for a sense of closure, the INFP has to actualize their ideals in the real world by doing something that lines with their values, expressing it through writing/art, working for a cause that lines up with their values, etc... if not, they will probably feel incredibly stifled and continue to bottle up their true values.

INTP's, in theory... should use their Ti/Ne strengths, towards Fe ends... I.E. I have all this knowledge now, and to fully develop it, I might as well help people with it towards the Fe End.

Much like an INFP, the INTP's Ne is also probably going off all the time causing *doubt*, bouncing out possibilities like "damn, I could be an F, I do have feelings, and other "what if's" The same Ne function is also always there, tormenting the Ne users to come to more pure moral truths/values.

Or is it that I have it wrong, and that INFP's are built more like an emotional rollercoaster power house, and these emotions they *feel* is what causes them to develop their Fi... ?

 

[LiquidLight]

From Marie-Louise Von Franz (an INTP)

This type (Introverted Feeling) is very difficult to understand. Jung says that the saying "still waters run deep" applies to people of this type. They have the same reactions of a very differentiated scale of value, but unlike the extravert, they do not express them outwardly, but are affected by them within. You often find introverted feeling types in the background where important and valuable events are taking place, just as if their introverted feeling has told them that that setup was really important and was the real thing. With a kind of silent loyalty and without any outside explanation, they turn up in places where important and valuable inner facts, and archetypal constellations, are to be found. With inconspicuous constancy they will stick, for instance, to important archetypal ideals, and they generally exert a positive secret influence on their surroundings by setting standards. The others observe them and, though they say nothing, for they are much too introverted to express themselves much, they set certain standards because they have them within themselves.

Introverted Feeling types for instance, very often form the secret ethical backbone of a group, for without irritating the others with moral or ethical precepts, they themselves have such right standards of ethical values that they secretly emanate a positive influence on those around them. One has to behave correctly because they have that kind of right value standard, or good taste, which always suggestively forces on to be decent if they are present, and that is because their differentiated introverted feeling sees what is inwardly the really important factor.
​

She goes on to describe why Sigmund Freud is sort of a prototypical Introverted Feeling type.

On INTPs Fe she writes

While the extraverted thinking (and inferior Fi) type deeply loves his wife but where Rilke, for instance, says "I love you, but it is none of your business," the Feeling of the introverted thinking type has an outer object. He would therefore say, in the Rilke style, "I love you and it will be your business; I'll make it your business!" Otherwise the introverted thinking type's Feeling has many of the same characteristics as the extraverted thinking type, with very black and white judgments, either yes or no, love or hate. But it can be very easily poisoned by other people and by the collective atmosphere and in that way can be made uncertain.

You could compare the inferior Feeling of an Introverted Thinking type to the flow of a volcano -- it only moves about five meters an hour, but it devastates everything on its way. That is why, naturally, an Introverted Thinking type will very soon experience that he is always putting his foot in it, for the feeling is so primitive, sticky and childish; but it also has all the advantages of a primitive function, for it is very genuine and warm. When an Introverted Thinking type loves there is no calculation in it. It will be for the sake of the other but it will be primitive. That is true for both types, for the Thinking types have primitive Feeling, but on the other hand it is never calculating. The inferior Feeling of a Thinking type is like a lioness that would like to play with you. She has no other intention than to play, but she rubs herself, purring, against your leg, or eats you up, or gives you a great blow so that you can fall over when she licks your face. But there is no calculation in it; it is just an expression of feeling, just as a dog wags his tail! What touches people in the feeling of domestic animals is just this lack of calculation.​

So she really spells out why the two types are very, very different from each other. The Fi-dom's feeling used to advance his ego's goals with the utmost calculation, determination and deliberation but always understated. Where the Ti-dom's Feeling is just raw, like a dog's. It's hot and cold, either love or hate and always in your face.

The only things I would add is that Fe does not see their evaluations as self-sacrifice. That's perhaps a Fi way of looking at things. If I buy a Mercedes because Car & Driver and everyone else says Mercedes is a nice car, I don't see this as a sort of self-sacrifice to the group (perhaps a Fi-type would though). The other thing is that for Fi-types restrained expression doesn't always mean bottled up (that is sort of a Fe-way of looking at it "let it all out!" a Fe-type might say).

 

[Fiel]

I don't really have anything to add... I like the way you described it, very cut and dry, true for me. As far as my knowledge goes on Fi and Fe, you got it right and worded it well.

 

[Vin The Dreamer]

Also, Fi *conclusions* could come to the same *conclusions* as Ti... not always, but they will. The thing is Fi will also also often know and STRUGGLE with the Te 'objective' logical answer... at least balanced ones will. They might know the "logical thing to do" Te clear as day, they just don't like USING Te on people, such as making decisions in the outer world, being a judger of people such as a lawyer/judge/cop would do. They are very bad with, and wouldn't want to EXERCISE an outer objective logic on people if it means violating their internal Fi values. This is why the question of Mercy over Justice is so fitting in the determinations. I would assume it is also why an Fi type would hate utilitarian philosophy for instance (very Te) and possibly even disagree with Kantian deontological ethics (very Ti)

Again also, Fi shouldn't be correlated with emotions, especially roller coaster emotions... which often does on here, and why you have all these people going through emotional phases testing as F's. Fi is more about the understanding of supreme personal values and moral implications of the human condition. Fi usually picks what is *right* for the individual, often something transcendent and *pure* hence "idealism", while Fe picks what is going to work best for the *group*.

The problem for Fi users having this system internalized and dominant, is they aren't always expressing this to other people... For people they don't think they can trust with these very strong values, they might just use an outward Te dealing with them, while in actuality they are boiling inside. So they might just have to put on their Te face to the outer world at the office, and this kind of thing drains them to no end. This is why for a sense of closure, the INFP has to actualize their ideals in the real world by doing something that lines with their values, expressing it through writing/art, working for a cause that lines up with their values, etc... if not, they will probably feel incredibly stifled and continue to bottle up their true values.

So she really spells out why the two types are very, very different from each other. The Fi-dom's feeling used to advance his ego's goals with the utmost calculation, determination and deliberation but always understated. Where the Ti-dom's Feeling is just raw, like a dog's. It's hot and cold, either love or hate and always in your face.

The only things I would add is that Fe does not see their evaluations as self-sacrifice. That's perhaps a Fi way of looking at things. If I buy a Mercedes because Car & Driver and everyone else says Mercedes is a nice car, I don't see this as a sort of self-sacrifice to the group (perhaps a Fi-type would though). The other thing is that for Fi-types restrained expression doesn't always mean bottled up (that is sort of a Fe-way of looking at it "let it all out!" a Fe-type might say).

These parts fit me perfectly. Thank you, both of you. I always start to doubt I'm INFP when they're presented as overtly emotional. (you sure you guys don't have Fi in you?)

 

[jd_]

^ It is possible... my ~ ~ ~ N ~ ~ ~ has been going deep and loopy the last few months in creativity/ideas ... so it is hard to tell. I used to type INFP though for a good bit, and back then yes... I felt a bit odd around the more overly emotional stuff. I'm somewhere in the ball park, and I'm fine with that b/c I can concentrate in improvements knowing when I act or hone in on certain functions.

 

[krentz]

I think you're spot on with a lot of what you said. I also just had a realisation that dawned on me, thanks to that. I'd never been able to understand Fe before, but if I think about how I use Te, then I can relate. If Te comes to straightforward conclusions based on universally agreed (externally defined) logical parameters then Fe will come to a consensus based on communally expressed feelings and values. That's... interesting, to look at it that way. So, just as surely as I hold strongly to my own personal 'truth', so too then must the INTP be certain of their perception of 'truth' even as they are given to continually doubt and reevaluate. Now if only I can somehow deconstruct Ni using the same parallels...

 

[jd_]

I think you're spot on with a lot of what you said. I also just had a realisation that dawned on me, thanks to that. I'd never been able to understand Fe before, but if I think about how I use Te, then I can relate. If Te comes to straightforward conclusions based on universally agreed (externally defined) logical parameters then Fe will come to a consensus based on communally expressed feelings and values. That's... interesting, to look at it that way. So, just as surely as I hold strongly to my own personal 'truth', so too then must the INTP be certain of their perception of 'truth' even as they are given to continually doubt and reevaluate. Now if only I can somehow deconstruct Ni using the same parallels...

Sounds about right. Te is about objective logic, Fe is about objective harmony.

For Ni... supposedly, Ni is a building of thoughts, say a lifetime of thoughts gathered ...which then all converge via pattern seeking on to a singular whole (The overencompassing big picture)...

hence the "aha" which is far too cliche.

Ne is taking one thought... then from that, expanding on it, multiplying it, scattering it in all kinds of directions leading towards infinite possibilities. And in your case as an INFP, once that brain storming is done, would see which fits through your internal valuing system (Fi)



I would think of it like you are creating the the milky way, piece by piece... and these pieces keep getting added as building blocks, and you are sitting viewing it from orbit, watching it build... yet you also can orbit around from outside the galaxy from different viewing points, and towards a comprehensive picture of everything.

Where as an Ne user might cruise over to say, earth... and say hmmm that is a cool planet, but... wait theres mars, oh crap, there is jupiter, there is another galaxy, so much stuff!!! Billions of stars! Let me chase after those ideas too.