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I have observed that sometimes an ENTJ will use their weakest function, Fi to make a value judgment, but then compartmentalize it - store it away, rather than dwell on it to assess it. Now, that judgment can possibly be inaccurate. It can be inaccurate, and now it is stored away somewhere, for later access.

I think that a P type would be more willing to reassess this bit of data, rather than just lock it into a linear stream of information.

Now, when the ENTJ later comes to a conclusion based in part on the Fi value judgments that weren't questioned, but compartmentalized and locked away, they have a gut feeling that they are correct because of the data that they have accepted as accurate, before.

Typically being very assured in their logic and rationale, what could make an ENTJ question opinions that were built in part by a wrong perception, and usage of Fi (which they are least developed in)?

ENTJs, do you think that you do this? How do you develop your Fi to the point that you can make more accurate judgments with it? Are you willing to reassess your judgments when someone says that you have made incorrect judgments about them? Any thoughts and opinions even loosely related are welcome.
 

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I am very wquick to make judgments aobut people and they are typically very long lasting judgments. i rmember things people have done year ago and they still form part of my judgment about them. however i AM open to chagge.


also bollinger
 

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Promethea, there is nothing mystical about character judgments; just take what is evident as evidence. A person who tells lies isn't honest, a cruel person isn't kind, a flaky person isn't consistent, and so forth. Experience and prediction, yo! There's no reason to lock people into categories; when a change is made, we'll see it.

Introverted feeling becomes more of a question when we ask, who am I? A lot of times, objective considerations can swallow and obliterate any hierarchy of values, as what is worth what falls out of focus. Moral assessments are easy; I make them quickly and accurately. In contrast, letting my likes and dislikes have their own voice always feels a little bit risky. Just randomly liking has always seemed whimsical to me; I'm more comfortable with reasoning, which, unlike feeling, never lets me down. If there's any dissonance between heart and reason, I always stick with reason. Though am doing a lot more stuff out of personal taste than I have in the past.
 

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Promethea, there is nothing mystical about character judgments; just take what is evident as evidence. A person who tells lies isn't honest, a cruel person isn't kind, a flaky person isn't consistent, and so forth. Experience and prediction, yo! There's no reason to lock people into categories; when a change is made, we'll see it.
This sounds more like SJ than NTJ observation of people - and Si, not Fi. I appreciate your reply though.
 

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Promethea, Ni is predictive, and quickly grasps how the future will unfold. The "storage" you're talking about is usually defined as Si, which looks at familiarity and unfamiliarity.

My sister, who is an ENTP, shares your problem sizing up people. Part of it is a fog of preconception, and part of it may be an inability to sift through a swarm of interpretations. When all you have is Ne, who needs evidence, right?

My father is an ISTJ, and has problems from the opposite angle. This may shine light on the ESTJs to a lesser degree as well. He relies heavily on testimony, outsourcing all of his thinking. Consider Obamacare. I told him the bill is going to blow a hole in the budget, since we can't add 30 million people to the system without cutting costs and expect budgets to balance. I referred to the situation in Massachusetts under Romneycare as my evidence.

His response? "They said that they would make things balance by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. That's not what I'm saying, that's what they said! They're going to make the process lean! Do you know anything about lean manufacturing?" My response was, "I don't give a damn what words come out of their mouth, I care about the implications of what they're doing." I could just tell that the "revenue neutral" crap is baloney, since real budget cuts would mean outrage from all of the liberal special interest groups, along with outrage in the liberal news media, just like Christie cutting the budget for real in New Jersey.

We have to see relationships, the entire picture, and not just rely on testimony alone. The irony is, in a few years, when the consequences become obvious, my father will be saying how he was "lied" to (not the first time this has happened to him), without learning to break out of the circle of testimony. And once someone is in his "liar" category, they'll be there for eternity. When the intuition is so weak, evidence becomes a matter of who is reliable and who is not reliable. For me, it is not a matter of promises, or what people say, or what their super secret moral essence happens to be. We just need to accept what we find-- we need to know what our assets are before we make investments. Intuition for me means insight, not fantasy.
 

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My sister, who is an ENTP, shares your problem sizing up people. Part of it is a fog of preconception, and part of it may be an inability to sift through a swarm of interpretations. When all you have is Ne, who needs evidence, right?
Unnecessary remark.

My father is an ISTJ, and has problems from the opposite angle. This may shine light on the ESTJs to a lesser degree as well. He relies heavily on testimony, outsourcing all of his thinking. Consider Obamacare. I told him the bill is going to blow a hole in the budget, since we can't add 30 million people to the system without cutting costs and expect budgets to balance. I referred to the situation in Massachusetts under Romneycare as my evidence.

His response? "They said that they would make things balance by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. That's not what I'm saying, that's what they said! They're going to make the process lean! Do you know anything about lean manufacturing?" My response was, "I don't give a damn what words come out of their mouth, I care about the implications of what they're doing." I could just tell that the "revenue neutral" crap is baloney, since real budget cuts would mean outrage from all of the liberal special interest groups, along with outrage in the liberal news media, just like Christie cutting the budget for real in New Jersey.

We have to see relationships, the entire picture, and not just rely on testimony alone. The irony is, in a few years, when the consequences become obvious, my father will be saying how he was "lied" to (not the first time this has happened to him), without learning to break out of the circle of testimony. And once someone is in his "liar" category, they'll be there for eternity. When the intuition is so weak, evidence becomes a matter of who is reliable and who is not reliable. For me, it is not a matter of promises, or what people say, or what their super secret moral essence happens to be. We just need to accept what we find-- we need to know what our assets are before we make investments. Intuition for me means insight, not fantasy.
Interesting story. And thanks for keeping the thread alive so that hopefully others can actually answer my question.
 

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I sometimes make Fi based calls…its weird…others willappreciate them, especially because they came from myself; yet I will feel asthough I lied to myself because I had trouble…validating it…if you will. Othertimes, usually in relationships, I found myself making decisions based on Fi,and they completely came back and bit me in the ass. Perhaps, for myself atleast, its best to make calls based on 90% Te, 5% sensing, and 5% feeling. And eventhat sometimes feels like Im pushing it. idk..food for thought?
 

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`I don't know yet if I am an entj for sure but a psychoanalyst who saw me for five years said I was. This reminds me of something that happened today though and may be relevant. Today I sent my uncle a message thanking him for being many things to me after I received my grade in a class as knew that without his moral and monetary support I would not have received this grade - he is also my boss and gave me the week off. He replied with "ok". I thought this was terse and insensitive and it ruined my three hours because I felt bad during the shower after, and most of the time meditating, but actually what I did is made a judgement and said that his comment was terse and cold, compartmentalized it, and it ate away at me as any repressed content might...

later I came to find out that the message was meant for his wife...he congratulated me and said he was proud.
 

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ENTJs, do you think that you do this? How do you develop your Fi to the point that you can make more accurate judgments with it? Are you willing to reassess your judgments when someone says that you have made incorrect judgments about them? Any thoughts and opinions even loosely related are welcome.
I don't think it's something that really is stored away only to be pulled back into what I might consider relevant logic just because I forgot I used "Fi" to make a judgement. Fi for me is a last resort type of deal. I don't make snap decisions based on my feelings that aren't applied right at that moment. I might become angry and make a decision that is based on a deep value judgement, but it will be communicated through Te right at that moment (a "temper flair" if you will).

A value judgement for me that is stored or compartmentalized is one that I have been sitting on for a while (obviously), I think "putting it on the back burner" is a better term, as it's still cooking. Rarely would I leave something that open ended for that long that it would be comparmentalized without being micromanaged depending on how useful it is to feel any certain way. Something will be done about it for better or worse, but not forgotten.

For example: maybe I have been making a lot of decisions that are wholly pertinent to a goal, but may be detrimental to the well being of a group. I might chug along and business will remain business as usual, but deep down in my little gutty-wuts, I'm thinking that I might not be being fair, and despite the fact that I am not being mindful of the wellfare of a group or respecting social trends, I know what is really "right". Because as an extrovert I have a deep understanding that even though I am an individual, I can only test the threshold of interdependence so much before it effects me (and ultimately my future goals). Latent empathy.

But good luck getting me to admit that this is what's going on when it happens. I will most likely just do whatever is necessary and right, but a thanks will be disregarded (that is always so akward).
 

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I don't think it's something that really is stored away only to be pulled back into what I might consider relevant logic just because I forgot I used "Fi" to make a judgement. Fi for me is a last resort type of deal. I don't make snap decisions based on my feelings that aren't applied right at that moment. I might become angry and make a decision that is based on a deep value judgement, but it will be communicated through Te right at that moment (a "temper flair" if you will).

A value judgement for me that is stored or compartmentalized is one that I have been sitting on for a while (obviously), I think "putting it on the back burner" is a better term, as it's still cooking. Rarely would I leave something that open ended for that long that it would be comparmentalized without being micromanaged depending on how useful it is to feel any certain way. Something will be done about it for better or worse, but not forgotten.

For example: maybe I have been making a lot of decisions that are wholly pertinent to a goal, but may be detrimental to the well being of a group. I might chug along and business will remain business as usual, but deep down in my little gutty-wuts, I'm thinking that I might not be being fair, and despite the fact that I am not being mindful of the wellfare of a group or respecting social trends, I know what is really "right". Because as an extrovert I have a deep understanding that even though I am an individual, I can only test the threshold of interdependence so much before it effects me (and ultimately my future goals). Latent empathy.

But good luck getting me to admit that this is what's going on when it happens. I will most likely just do whatever is necessary and right, but a thanks will be disregarded (that is always so akward).
this resonates deeply with me too. I have to goals, one is a soul searching goal, meanwhile I have a goal of becomming completely independent, which I've had trouble with thus far because of my inability to commit to a work day regiment. Currenly I do medical billing while studying for a masters in computer science but I only work four days a week....For now that is good because my grades are excellent and I am getting some support from family and government, but before this I was having issues working full time as an accountant...there is something about doing the same thing everyday which I fear intensely....

Is this normal for an entj? Regardless, I relate to setting goals and sometimes not feeling like these goals are altruistic enough, and other times having a sort of delayed empathy, only realizing it later that I have set a goal at someone elses expense...but as thinkers we are always setting goals I guess........interdependence though, testing the limits, well said I guess I may be an entj after all.
 

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... Typically being very assured in their logic and rationale, what could make an ENTJ question opinions that were built in part by a wrong perception, and usage of Fi (which they are least developed in)?

ENTJs, do you think that you do this? How do you develop your Fi to the point that you can make more accurate judgments with it? Are you willing to reassess your judgments when someone says that you have made incorrect judgments about them? Any thoughts and opinions even loosely related are welcome.
I think the ability to see that your own opinion or judgment may flawed and realizing that the error in thinking stems from your own perceptions and judgments is something that develops over time.

For me, Fi is the end test. Can I live with this decision? Does it feel right? I've always had the sense that once I've thought something through that I KNOW that I'm right (geez that sounds pompous) - but as I've gotten older, there is a caveat that creeps into my thinking ... but I could be wrong ... I've noticed that my Fi-filter has changed over time. There is still a strong degree of certainty to it, but it's not as rigid as it once was - it's just as strong, but more flexible.

So it's changed from:
Does it feel right? (to me) to

Does it feel correct? (not only to me, but in the interaction between you and me)

I'm much more open now to listening to the opinions and thoughts of people. In the past, I would have listened to them with the dismissive attitude in the back of my head that "even a blind squirrel can find a nut every once in a while". Now, I am much more likely to try to find something in them or what they are saying that connects with me, and in finding that, I am more likely to value their input. Instead of just focusing in on what's important to me, I want to hear what's important to you - I might find something useful in it and I'm open to hearing it. I'm also much more likely to admit that I was wrong and then reassess my judgments. That little voice that says "but I could be wrong" is always there in the back of my head now.

It's no longer about stubbornly having to be right. It's about being correct - finding a solution that benefits us both because that will help me make better decisions in the future.
 
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