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I've had the pleasure of meeting 3 infj's over the past few months, and would like say that they were all such wonderful people I have a lot of respect for. If there's a type dedicated to being actively giving, and caring rather then being focused on themselves, it would be the infj.

I can never stay committed though, because I'm broken. Possibly my narsissism, but something in me has that constant desire to want to achieve more, and i can only see a fun, happy caring, simple kind of life with an infj. Yes our personalities and way of communication works great, but that normal life isn't what I'm looking for.

I like meeting and talking with people as much as any Extraverted type, but nothing in me ever forms any kind of lasting attachment.


I used to be alot more touch my feelings, until I married an infp who cheated me. Ever since then I've always seemed to process my emotions through that thinking filter, understanding but not feeling. Only feeling the emotions I want to.



Would any other entps feel slowed down by an infj? Even though everything else may line up perfectly
 
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Would any other entps feel slowed down by an infj? Even though everything else may line up perfectly
Only when he's taking a bloody eternity with the coffee making process in the morning. I swear, he slows down by 80% if I'm there to send desperate looks his way and by a further 80% down from that if I make the mistake of saying "can you please hurry it up?"
 

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I'm INFJ and I know I can be like frozen ice

I'm working on it, but lots of things are triggers for me

conversations are really difficult sometimes because there are so many things going on and so many levels of interaction

and for me the face-to-face level is sometimes the least important, compared to the metaphysical

which also makes it the most distressing because I know the least how to manage face-to-face physical interaction,

which in the end has made me feel how will I ever get myself to be understood in such a way that the deepest parts of me will actually be celebrated and rejoiced over by at least one other person.

speaking for myself I don't actually mind letting go, and of course I love it when I can enjoy myself, but EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON MY DEGREE OF COMFORTABILITY WITH THE OTHER PERSON and how much I think they will either enjoy or judge me. Does that make sense?

Also, because the smallest thing can set me off and send me to the mentally painful place where I am dwelling on the negative emotional energy I have received from interpreting others' intentions towards me wrongly in the past, it leaves the other person wondering what the hell is going on.

so in many ways the timing between ENTP and INFJ is entirely mismatched.

The way that I would describe it is the 'times are out of joint' and if I can say so this is very disappointing to me.

Come to say that, I think you are very on the mark in saying that timing and tempo is the one objective reason for mistrust between the types. And I want to acknowledge that for an ENTP this is what makes me, INFJ, come across as so very confusing and perhaps even stranger than anyone else.

I don't mind being challenged, in fact it's really important for ENTP to shake me, INFJ, out of my cold, frozen morbidity (that is how I have viewed this part of myself), however the ENTP would also have to realise that I, INFJ, would at first not thank them for startling me so shockingly by their acute awareness of my problems with relating to other people in the physical context (which, as I said, is to me personally the least important - I sometimes feel as though if I could operate like a naked spirit, without having to engage in the physical world, I certainly would)...

Evidently I have a lot of issues with myself haha but I think we all do, really. Maybe I am just more obsessive about describing myself publicly in a way that others would feel no urgency to do. I also have issues figuring out what is inappropriate for me to share because it would confuse and disorientate them. Hopefully the negative effects from this today are not too much... (At the same time however I'm trying to trust that others' reactions to me when I share from my heart will not always be negative, and I should trust them more to respond in whatever sense they see fit)

Great observations by the way :)
 

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An INFJ and an ENTP can make the world interesting as hell for themselves. It depends on what the two individuals put into it, and where their interests are, more so than the fact that an ENTP is with an INFJ.

For instance, an INFJ and ENTP could go hiking, get lost because they started talking about the system of trees, stumble on this guy and have to run for their lives:



... or they could stay home and order delivery from the same Chinese place for the umpteenth time because they didn't think to do something different.

It's about what you choose to go get and what you don't choose to choose.
 

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Yes. My ENTP sees me as something of a ball and chain already, and even though we aren't technically in a relationship, it feels like we are. It's like with every text message I send and he responds to I'm drawing him further and further into a world of convention and rational thinking - two things he hates. I'll admit my idea of fun is typically dinner and a movie but I've been open to doing other more esoteric things. The problem I think is he'd prefer I wanted to do them on my own rather than have to be introduced. On the other hand, he keeps saying how good of a mother I'd make. How nurturing and stable I seem. He says these things usually right before sex, and then not much again afterwards.

I am for the most part boring and staid, and my attempts to seem otherwise probably strike him as forced. He sees through me but can't help admiring me. Some days I think he's afraid of me. When he pisses me off, my words seem to have a knife-like effect on him. All I have to say are a few, one time, and he gets the message. I feel like he resents the fact that I can do that - reduce him to nothing in an instant. By that I mean, his behavior. It's almost like he loves and respects me so much that he hates me for it, because we're completely different. Everything I am he should in theory be against. He loves me but hates it, I can tell. In fact I think he's ready to break up with me any day now.
 

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I've never dated an INFJ, but I have an INFJ friend who I consider like a brother. We're able to have really deep conversations that can go on and on. I also have an INFJ sister. I can see where it could clash a lot w/ an INFJ if you were around each other all the time because you see things different and behave differently.

As far as slowing you down I think most INFJs would be supportive of you pursing your passions prob more than others, tho everyone is different, regardless of type someone might want you to settle down or whatever. I find INFJs are pretty outgoing, except when it comes to being social with people that they don't find satisfying to be around just because compared to ENTPs they tend not crave social interactions quite as much and so focus more on just socializing w/ those that make them feel more fulfilled, wishing to skip parties dinner etc. w/ people they don't find intellectually stimulating. But I think that clash between INFJ and ENTP is the case w/ any intro vs extravert. Just got to accept that you're different and let each other do their thing a bit if you want it to work.
 

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I suppose that INFJs feel an inverse caution toward ENTPs where this is concerned.

I've only met a few ENTPs, but they all had to grow on me before I started to like them. You guys are pretty talkative, and INFJs don't tend to to gravitate toward the person who's trying their darndest to get the attention -- we kind of hate that. But if I allow some time to get past the, er, "loud" surface, I find that I enjoy their sense of humor and way of looking at things. Even still, I feel that my natural partner is the ENFP (I'm with one right now). I just don't know how I'd handle the T sensibilities.
 
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In my interactions with ENTP, I’ve found that I, INFJ, am good at interpreting the relationship in a figurative, non-literal way and ENTP is good at engaging with me in a figurative, non-literal way. However I, INFJ, am not good at engaging with others in a figurative, non-literal way and I interpret the relationship like a text, like a book with static content, instead of human interaction with another free being.

In interactions generally, I do not engage well with others in a figurative, non-literal way because I literally do not understand how to engage appropriately in those codes of interaction which constitute the way people behave to fit in to the way society operates. I do not “see” those codes, or at least I do not see them in a neutral, objective way. In this sense I engage with normalised codes of interaction from the level of my unconscious and preconscious. On the other hand, in my experience, ENTP will sometimes choose not to conform themselves to those normalised codes of interaction for a very different reason. My experience is that ENTP will choose not to conform exactly to normalised codes of interaction, precisely because they DO “see” those codes, and that in a neutral, objective way, and from that position they have understood most normalised codes of behaving in society are completely arbitrary as adjudicated from the neutral, objective standpoint of their Ne, which is image-building and creative in a neutral, objective way which can easily imagine the possibilities of the arbitrary code being otherwise than what it is. In this sense ENTP would engage with normalised codes of interaction from the level of their conscious.

I also self-identify with the autism spectrum. My cognitive abilities do not extend to being able to recognise immediately when I am being intrusive, insulting or inappropriate with over-sharing, monologue-ing or just generally being non-reciprocal in my interactions. –So how much of this is just me, I cannot qualify for others in a perfect way

Also Ni is crusading (non-averse to firm ideological strictures), where Ne is liberating (non-averse to using open frameworks based on conceiving possibilities not closing them down)
 
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Oh, yes. @Maker of helmets , that's good stuff.

My INFJ spouse is always looking to fit new pieces into his existing framework of Life And Everything As We Know It, but this happens slowly. I think people baffle him a little, really, although he's good at relating to others on an emotional level. And after seven years together, I still can't figure out how the whole process unfolds from his point of view because it seems like magic to me-- he's a bit of a mystic really. He can be deeply insightful at times, but this seems more like an accidental byproduct of how he works than something he's consciously aware of. And despite the fact he's much more emotionally sensitive and responsive to other people's feelings than I am, he's also more likely to be upset when people behave in ways that he cannot predict (because it doesn't fit in with his theory of everything!) and leave him perplexed. I just take it all in and sort it out as I go along.

I think one of the things that keeps me interested in him -- besides all the other great stuff like his whimsical sense of humour, kindness, depth of feeling and brightness, likewise his stability and unwavering loyalty and trust in me -- is my inability to read his mind. I have an easy enough time with relating to him on an emotional level in the moment or discussing theory until the cows come home, but he's really not that good at figuring out why he's feeling something specific. And he's frustrated by other people behaving in what he views as erratic ways. So we do a lot of talking, or I do a lot of prodding and questioning to help him get an understanding of what, why, how and when. I actually think this is an atypical F/T pairing in that it's more on me to help him deal with his feelings as I bring my analytic thinking to the table (I think Ti is supposed to be an INFJ's tertiary function, mine seems to do well enough with that when it comes to work and theoretical shit but it often abandons him and leaves him baffled on a more personal level) so that we can reason out the particulars. He is sometimes "in a bad mood" without understanding why, and it typically takes some questioning from me to aid in figuring out what's happening there; I am rarely "in a bad mood" without having a very clear understanding of why that's so. And I can usually predict how other people will behave when exposed to a specific stimulus, but in his case anything is possible. But he's not particularly scattered, just really self contained and prone to holding things close to his chest.

I think the INFJ is somewhat prone to thinking "this is how things SHOULD be" while I bring a perspective of "this is how things COULD be" to the table. It's also the reason for some of our clashes, I think he's too rigid and ignores the multitude of human experience with his narrow focus, in his view I'm pointlessly contradictory and scattered. He often asks me "is this right?" and frankly I'm at a loss to how to respond: maybe it is right in that particular situation, or maybe it's right for a particular person, but I don't think there's a universal right. He seems to disagree.

And I really like that my spouse marches to the beat of his own drum. He's usually vaguely aware of convention, but doesn't really care because it doesn't influence his inner sense of What Is; I'm very aware of convention, but often don't care because in my opinion it's outdated, insensible and pointless.

I know and love several INFJs -- I guess there's some type of a honing beacon on my forehead saying as much -- and some are good at verbal sparring, others are not. But the underlying beliefs they have are unlikely to change fast even with new information presented. It's that whole Jesus complex again, I swear my atheist spouse thinks he's got a line up to the divine, or the unbeliever's version of such. I think this drives some of my conflicts with my spouse, I present new information and because he talks fast and gives as good as he gets, I intuitively expect him to be able to process what I'm conveying at the same speed as I do. But this doesn't happen: I have to make my argument, say my piece, leave him to reflect on it, and expect an answer in a few days. Or a month, or a year. We're still rehashing some of our older arguments where he's slowly been able to come around to see my point of view.

In conclusion, INFJs are great for the more patient ENTP. They'll bring out sides of you that you didn't think you possessed, like an astonishing depth of emotion, and make you hone your arguments down to bare essentials instead of jumping around from one idea to the next. My life skills -- sticking to something and going through with it -- have also improved vastly by my association with him. But the process can be frustrating.
 

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Sometimes I don't meet people half-way because I know people don't know how to manage themselves around me in that process of finding equilibrium. I know people find it difficult to be with me "in my mind" in a way that feels normal to them. Does that make sense?

Sometimes I think I am responding to how I know people view me. For example, being Christian, I know I am taken as being small-minded from the get-go sometimes. Sometimes I am just trying to control how people view me, and not giving them further reason to think I am crazy. If people don't trust me to start with, I cannot control the fall-out from them being frightened when I come across as strong and not mild as I can appear in person. How do you control who you are in such a way that people will want to know you? Maybe ENTP thinks oppositely to this and they don't care what people think? For me the question is finding the companionship I need.

I think there is a lot of unknown quantities in INFJ that others don't know how to control and even then it would be mysterious. I just want to be me. Sometimes I think I am elevating myself to humanise myself again and not feel like I'm completely incomprehensible to everyone just because this is the way that I think. I think in terms of spirit and heart, not just heart. Whatever job that I can get in the future, doesn't matter, I just need somewhere where the productive value in the way that I think is valued and recognised.

I feel like I've served my time. Today I was assessed for the autism spectrum and it feels like coming out of the lion's den to me

I read life like a text but people don't understand me in that aspect because I think they feel like characters I am trying to write into their book, as if I could ever know what their book reads like, I don't know them

but when there is spirit as well as heart, and when you are comfortable thinking in terms of spirit and heart, and not closed to that, as INFJ, I read everything in terms of spirit and heart and sometimes real-life interaction gets left behind and maybe people feel that too, like I've left them behind to pursue the story in my head of what is going on. As you say, @adultchildofalieninvaders, even your atheistic husband has a touch of the mystical which he pursues

What I feel is like a transuniversal identification with the characters in their stories, my friends. No I don't know their stories, I never could, but the stories don't matter. The characters are one and the same because we are all part of the same story. We are all children, we are all brothers and sisters, we are all parents and grandparents. Why should I close myself to the spiritual when I know it is there

People think I am closed because of spirituality, but I think they are not open yet because they would not accept it doesn't have to be anything that is not real. But if it is real, then it deserves to be taken seriously

The society I live in is closed to spirituality because we are scared of its abuses. And there is a time for that season of being scared. But that is not the whole story and we need to develop an awareness of heart and spirit, or we are not even listening to the whole story, we are just listening to ourselves because that is what feels good. When people are scared of me because of spirituality, which not all are, I know they will not accept me when I speak from those parts of me, and they cannot because they do not yet want to.

*hope you don't break apart from trying to understand what I'm trying to say*
 

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I'm working on feeling comfortable with seeking to be provided for, and facilitating others instead of coming across as though I'm adjudicating their lives for them. these two things will be a relief to me because I understand I've hurt others by my unconscious need of others proving to me they know how to deal with me, and coming across as though I'm adjudicating their lives for them, as well as my preconscious need of controlling others and theorising about anything and everything. it's up from here, I am no longer in the valley of the shadow :D melodramatic right but it works for me. seriously I just need a forum where I can see that my thoughts come into existence by capturing them in words. and it helps if I at least can feel that others are listening to me. It's kind of beside the point if they stopped listening a long time ago haha :)
 

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I'm working on feeling comfortable with seeking to be provided for, and facilitating others instead of coming across as though I'm adjudicating their lives for them. these two things will be a relief to me because I understand I've hurt others by my unconscious need of others proving to me they know how to deal with me, and coming across as though I'm adjudicating their lives for them, as well as my preconscious need of controlling others and theorising about anything and everything. it's up from here, I am no longer in the valley of the shadow :D melodramatic right but it works for me. seriously I just need a forum where I can see that my thoughts come into existence by capturing them in words. and it helps if I at least can feel that others are listening to me. It's kind of beside the point if they stopped listening a long time ago haha :)
This is the reason I think Ne doms and Ni doms go well together. I am very good at taking my Ni friends out of their heads so to speak and allowing them to be themselves. In my experience, Ni doms loosen up a lot around me and other Ne dom friends. Conversely, I like feeling grounded by Ni doms.
 
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More contribution from ENTPs please. It seems thread has been hijacked by INFJs :p
-Ob.
 

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Sometimes I don't meet people half-way because I know people don't know how to manage themselves around me in that process of finding equilibrium. I know people find it difficult to be with me "in my mind" in a way that feels normal to them. Does that make sense?

Sometimes I think I am responding to how I know people view me. For example, being Christian, I know I am taken as being small-minded from the get-go sometimes. Sometimes I am just trying to control how people view me, and not giving them further reason to think I am crazy. If people don't trust me to start with, I cannot control the fall-out from them being frightened when I come across as strong and not mild as I can appear in person. How do you control who you are in such a way that people will want to know you? Maybe ENTP thinks oppositely to this and they don't care what people think? For me the question is finding the companionship I need.

I think there is a lot of unknown quantities in INFJ that others don't know how to control and even then it would be mysterious. I just want to be me. Sometimes I think I am elevating myself to humanise myself again and not feel like I'm completely incomprehensible to everyone just because this is the way that I think. I think in terms of spirit and heart, not just heart. Whatever job that I can get in the future, doesn't matter, I just need somewhere where the productive value in the way that I think is valued and recognised.

I feel like I've served my time. Today I was assessed for the autism spectrum and it feels like coming out of the lion's den to me

I read life like a text but people don't understand me in that aspect because I think they feel like characters I am trying to write into their book, as if I could ever know what their book reads like, I don't know them

but when there is spirit as well as heart, and when you are comfortable thinking in terms of spirit and heart, and not closed to that, as INFJ, I read everything in terms of spirit and heart and sometimes real-life interaction gets left behind and maybe people feel that too, like I've left them behind to pursue the story in my head of what is going on. As you say, @adultchildofalieninvaders, even your atheistic husband has a touch of the mystical which he pursues

What I feel is like a transuniversal identification with the characters in their stories, my friends. No I don't know their stories, I never could, but the stories don't matter. The characters are one and the same because we are all part of the same story. We are all children, we are all brothers and sisters, we are all parents and grandparents. Why should I close myself to the spiritual when I know it is there

People think I am closed because of spirituality, but I think they are not open yet because they would not accept it doesn't have to be anything that is not real. But if it is real, then it deserves to be taken seriously

The society I live in is closed to spirituality because we are scared of its abuses. And there is a time for that season of being scared. But that is not the whole story and we need to develop an awareness of heart and spirit, or we are not even listening to the whole story, we are just listening to ourselves because that is what feels good. When people are scared of me because of spirituality, which not all are, I know they will not accept me when I speak from those parts of me, and they cannot because they do not yet want to.

*hope you don't break apart from trying to understand what I'm trying to say*
I think that was beautifully spoken.

I think regardless of "religious view" we're all the same in ways, everyone contains a spiritual side of their self (perhaps the -NF- , what might be considered the magician/sage archetype)

I believe the biggest problem w/ society today is that people don't realize that religion and science are the same thing. The pursuit of understanding what reality is...pursuit of truth. What we are and the nature of the objective reality. At one point in history religion and science were intertwined but as they developed more, different methods for exploring and discovering insights into reality became more defined, detailed, structured and so religion and science split off from one another....using different methods that are better at exploring different aspects of reality, but science and religion are two sides of the same coin, they're different aspects of the same thing, pursuit of truth and understanding.


I like what you said about spirit and heart. I believe in holistic healing and that for health it's important to focus on a balance of health of mind, body heart, and spirit. We can think of mind=T body=S heart=F spirit=N, not that they're exactly the same thing, but abstractly related. Much like I think of Water=mind, Fire=body, Earth=heart, Air=Spirit. In terms of health, mind=mental health, body=physical health, heart =social health, spirit=religious/spiritual/philosophical/psychological health.

Can't say i necessarily understand everything you've tried to express but I feel that some of it resonated :)
 

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Great insights

I don't really have anything to add but I receive what you're saying

And linking this to the dynamic of ENTP and INFJ, I think

both would oppress each other only when they're unsure of what they want to do-

if they're misdirected they'll walk all over each other without realising

because their preferred dynamic is naturally very different, yet also similar in their sensitivities to what is going on around them

so if you don't want to hold each other back, by all means give each other as much space as one another needs

because then you'll be able to consistently, progressively realise what the preferred dynamic is between ENTP and INFJ

and it's easy to get out-of-kilter with one another in your individuated dynamics

so the process of exposure to one another's dynamics is or could be mentally painful to an almost unbearable degree,

like you are scalded from one another, but then the dynamics would regulate itself again,

provided you were on the same page concerning how you understand yourselves and one another to be. This is my experience.
 

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^ well anyway I've had this effect on my friend who's ENTP- that's also got quite a bit to do with me coming across as judge and critic, and my own issues with feeling lack of acceptance generally as pertaining to my styles of interaction

In regard to the magician archetype, I think that is what I've tried to get acceptance for- like I'm going all over the place, as though I were jumping up and down, saying I'm a magician! I'm a magician! but all I am doing is coming across as judge and critic. but then I don't even see myself as judge and critic, I see myself as "warrior", like an ascetic crusader who they would really thank me for if they could see the importance of what I was adjudicating and theorising about. I could not see the stilted growth in myself because I could not see what I really needed and what I really wanted was to be recognised as the magician archetype, which I think I am most of all others because of Ni, which values control-oriented process

I wasn't linking back to the question as a way of saying you got away from it, more just as a way to continue the conversation. But I understood as I wrote it that it could be taken in another way to how I meant it to be understood.

I haven't felt that ENTP is offensive to me in the same way that I do not immediately recognise when I am intrusive, insulting and inappropriate to ENTP. So their dynamics do not actually have exactly the same effect on one another in my experience. I would take every responsibility for how I've come across to my friend who's ENTP. It's more that I know there've been misunderstandings on both sides, for example I can feel how my over-explanation is received as being smothering, as though I'm expecting someone to take on board everything I'm saying, even if they don't want to, whereas maybe I'm just talking to myself like a magician would do- regardless of whether there's an audience, the magician still wants to feel comfortable and that he/she is *allowed* to speak their mind in that inner chamber where they are figuring out which is the best way to think of things out there in the world. I'm just theorising now, when I say I think I've transferred others' mistrust of my "magician", their perspective on that part of me, and become reliant on THEIR acceptance of that part of me, whereas I can operate in that space completely independently of anyone else or their acceptance of me as "magician". This is just me trying to explain myself to myself, performing experiments like alchemy to see what is occurring as though by chemical reaction in the psychosocial dimension. I'm not apologising, just explaining, because my understanding is that the "magician" is frequently misunderstood. A self-hating "magician" is a very harsh and cold judge and critic, and an unjust warrior, whereas a self-accepting magician would be fair, kind, practical and unpresumptuous in his/her adjudications, theorisations and self-control/ascetism, instead of life-rejecting and life-destructing.

especially to the king, nurse, lover and navigator archetypes (which constitute my would-be consciousness and enlightenment, as according to my theory), the ways that I have been would have been overly intrusive, insulting and inappropriate. I think it is beautiful how we would be all things in our spirit, but then enlightenment would be awakening to those parts of us in a consistent, progressive way so that we become all things and yet not all at once. accepting that every person is, has been and always will be each of the eight archetypes I have thought about, then there is no need of hell as a concept of the afterlife because perishing from an earthly body would be beside the point of continuing on as a person with all eight operational units of the human psyche continuing on inside them. there is enough hell on earth to think there would be anything after except continuing on in an overlapping sphere to earth, as many other cultures would consider the spirit of a person to become ingrained in the earth, helping, looking after them.

I would agree about science/religion being two sides of the same coin. I would also think of leadership as being appropriately constituted by REFLECTIVE and FACILITATIVE styles of interaction, which are uncommon to the grand swathe of business and political leaders in the history of my society - at least as a unit we have overwhelmingly been neither reflective nor facilitative of one another and the system is in its operation generally non-conducive to reflective and facilitative styles of leadership. However that is what we would arguably need in order to navigate a way through the treacherous mine-field of wicked problems, so-called, like climate change and the "war on terrorism"

My last two functions are Te and Si, which I think of as being appropriately, abstractly represented by the navigator and lover - and those things I am least good at expressing, as I come across as neither an appropriately strategising person nor warm and providing. But if we gave ourselves permission not to be isolated from every part of ourselves, which remain latent in our spirit, yet remain to be expressed in our heart for much of our lives, I believe our societies would be injected with new fervour and excitement for the possibilities yet to be explored and fleshed out by personal and collective investigations and implementation. Then it wouldn't matter if we tried and failed in one experiment, because as the magician would tell you there is no end to the metaphysical, it simply continues on and on and embraces you every single time so there is no room between you and the discovery, because the discovery is yours for the taking if you would seek it for yourself, not for anyone else, just for yourself because it was made for you.

It isn't even a failure of imagination which has brought our societies to this time, in my view, everything is exactly in its place where it should be. The story that I would tell (because the magician is also a story-teller) is that to this point we have just not realised WHAT WE ALREADY ARE, yet remain to see of ourselves.

The distinction I would make between what I have referred to as spirit and heart, is like a scaffold for understanding there is a difference between what is and what we remain to know of what is. Often people (myself included) fail to make sense of the distinction between what I am, already, and what I understand myself to be- or what is, objectively, out there in the world, and what I understand there to be.

Maybe we just need people that have learned to think in ways that are conducive to reflective and facilitative styles of interaction, instead of their opposites which are - I would argue- empirically biased towards image-preserving and conservative styles of interaction, whereas maybe reflective and facilitative styles of interaction would tend towards being more image-building, creative and progressive

And the fact we have to deal with at the moment is the matter of a unipolar international system with inequitable relations. If that is the unconscious and preconscious image in our collective human psyche of how things are, we need reflective and facilitative leaders that would be image-BUILDING and creative in their approach to conceiving the possibilities at hand. - We need all eight archetypes, we will be stilted if we are biased towards some over others, for example I was the judge and critic when I needed to be the nurse and navigator. The judge without the nurse is harsh without facilitating any change in anyone; the critic without the navigator theorises about things he has no eyes to see the way through, like a huge ship which ends up crashing headlong into an iceberg in the middle of the ocean... *I know I've derailed the thread*

^conversation with myself :)- not many people want to join in talking about abstract things like this as if they were really concrete, that's why it's pretty starving being or identifying with the "magician" archetype in a society like mine which is inherently suspicious of the "magician" because I think it is understood he is representative of something like the alchemist, priest and story-teller and maybe all these things are portrayed as liar, or as though I'm trying to extract blood from their veins, or hoodwink them into thinking something they would not believe if they had only allowed themselves not to be swindled, so they would rather keep their distance than pretend they are inherently trusting of speaking in word-pictures, which speak of the psychosocial dimension in a concrete way instead of allowing the dynamics of a situation to pass by unnoticed or uncaptured by words. I want to capture everything by words but this is an experiment where many others would not know what is happening when I'm trying to do that. I am naturally communicative but mostly by words and mostly in the abstract, which people feel out of their depths so they feel they cannot swim but for me it is like breathing in air, it is not something I need to think about- whereas for me face-to-face interaction is not the depths that I swim in, maybe then it is like I am a fish trying to walk on the land and now I need to learn how to navigate my ways on land (meaning face-to-face interaction) in a way which helps put them at their ease and comfortable with me, not second-guessing themselves like I will always seek to go out into the deep waters when they don't feel like doing that, especially when they don't know me or everything about me.

If my society became more familiarised with the "magician" archetype I would be very happy because then I would not try and struggle to humanise myself so much. It's like a self-perpetuating cycle where I've elevated myself to humanise myself again, like tried to tell a story about myself in a mystical way in a way which puts me at ease, and normalises me to myself, and yet sets others back from me because they see it not as my emotional need to humanise myself again, but rather just as elevating myself.

I would not be surprised if we are sometimes depressed because we identify with an archetype we feel we cannot express because we would be punished by those whose care we feel that we need and want. I know that I've made my friend who's ENTP feel this way because of my own issues.

I think we need Habermas' idea of communicative rationality applied to improving the ease with which we interact between the different archetypes. I think we will find the archetypes are everywhere, struggling in their separate caves, confused because they cannot express themselves, asking why they cannot reach through to higher dimensions of consciousness, because we are all of us separately thinking we would not be allowed, we would be punished for expressing ourselves in certain archetypes, whereas expressing ourselves in each of the operational units of the human psyche is exactly what we need (in my vision), in order to flesh out our consciousness, make us softer, make us more accepting of ourselves and one another. E.g. I purposely made myself the ascetic self-controlling "warrior" with restrictions around how I would express myself as the lover, and this being inherently unhealthy I damaged myself more than anyone else in the process, though others, too, and that severely. Also feeling that I couldn't express myself as the king (queen) because that would not be humbling myself and I interpreted my religion (Christianity) as meaning I could never do that, but if expressing myself as "king" (queen) just means allowing myself to *be provided for*, there is really NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

*TL;DR don't worry I know ;) just don't read it if you don't want to, I'm not trying to force you to listen to me I'm just trying to listen to myself*
 

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Also traditionally the "magician" would have been a medicine man/healer, as in Australian Aboriginal cultures.

the "magician" expresses itself in wanting to heal, and give healing balms, by telling people what I think/see of them - in my way, is through words - but I know people's distrust of the spiritual, so I will choose not to give them because I know it is frightening; I know people's mistrust of the "magician" archetype, he is the swindler, the manipulator, the life-destroyer - that is the received image of the "magician" in people's minds generally in my society, and I have not known to project any other image of myself than as what they think of this part of me. I identify strongly with this part of me, so their rejection of this archetype was like a rejection of me, and it was, but they did not do it because they wanted to reject me, they did not trust me because they could not trust me and I had not given them any better reason to- yet. Now I am trying to get in touch with the other parts of me which I should be able to trust in myself. And no-one can give me permission to express those parts of me except me, myself. I let others control how I expressed the "magician" when they never asked me to give them that control over me, so of course they would misuse that trust, because they had never even known I had placed that control in their hands, to tell me whether or not I could express that part of myself.

I think expressing this psychosocial dimension through the language of the operational units in the human psyche, configured differently in each of the human psyche structure types, and their correspondent archetypes (granted these may be other than proposed), could be an avenue of reconciling religion with science again, so we do not stay in the dead-lock of peering at one another from either side of an irreconcilable chasm.
 

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*I feel like I know people will think of my above responses as over-the-top and unnecessary. I feel like I already know how I will come across sometimes, if I would ask anything of others who would think these things, please don't make fun of me- because that would definitely be a trigger for me and no-one needs to point out the above would be received as strange by many standards, because I already know that. please just try and take me in good humour if you feel like I'm clearly being over-the-top and unnecessary, because for me once I've expressed something, that's when I feel like I've understood it and the above is something I'm pretty excited to understand tbh, even just for myself, doesn't have to be for anyone else, and I'm not trying to force anyone to understand completely what I'm going on about, this is just for me because I feel it will help me to conceive relations better and potentially even help others to conceive themselves in a better way, and give grace to themselves not to look to the past but just to pick themselves up and keep walking, as I am picking myself up now and recovering from the experience of feeling isolated from the ones that are closest to me and that I want to help the most, but I couldn't because of the chasm in-between of religion versus science, the fundamental distrust of what I identify the most with, which is mythical stories where I and everyone else are part of the story :)*
 

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I'

I can never stay committed though, because I'm broken. Possibly my narsissism, but something in me has that constant desire to want to achieve more, and i can only see a fun, happy caring, simple kind of life with an infj. Yes our personalities and way of communication works great, but that normal life isn't what I'm looking for.

I like meeting and talking with people as much as any Extraverted type, but nothing in me ever forms any kind of lasting attachment.


I used to be alot more touch my feelings, until I married an infp who cheated me. Ever since then I've always seemed to process my emotions through that thinking filter, understanding but not feeling. Only feeling the emotions I want to.



Would any other entps feel slowed down by an infj? Even though everything else may line up perfectly
for the record treebob, this is NOT an alias account I am using. This is some other poor bastard soul who happens to mirror my attitudes.

I'd encourage you to go read about Sx If you are Ne and Sx you are going to have a short attention span, but meet a lot of great ladies.
 

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when i got to the second page of the thread i read "blah blah blah" and paged down.

infj's can use lots of words.
 
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