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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
And I would really appreciate the input of some of the resident PerC INFJs.

I have been married to an INFJ for nearly 12 years now. Our marriage is in shambles and we've been seperated in the same home for about a year and had 1-2 years of very rocky relations before that.

Right now she's just about at the point she can financially support herself and move out. It's the time we agreed that would trigger the start of divorce proceedings.

For your information I asked her for the divorce. I have quite a few reasons, but none are the bloody sins that are deadly to the relationship. Neither of us have cheated, even with the year of seperation. There was no gambling problem or drugs or drinking. No abuse, although she was very controlling.

I've finally reached the point emotionaly were I'm detached enough from the outcome that I could give it one more shot to try and fix things. But there are key issues that I would need to know she would change or it will never work.

First she was very sexually naive. Since this isn't the sex and relaitionship forum I won't get graphic but she wasn't willing to try things and I'm not even talking about the back door or S&M. She wouldn't shave or trim and reacted like I was asking her to violate her sacred being when I brought it up. Further more she was always in her head during sex and couldn't really get into it.

Second she is extremely monitarily conservative. Like you don't go on a vacation unless you have a couple months of cash reserves saved up. Money was tight for most of our marraige so that ment we rarely got out and had fun, even before we had kids. She'd get pissed if I ate lunch with a coworker to try and network because it was spending too much money.

Thirdly she was mildly antisocial. She wasn't a hermit who snarled at people walking passed the house but she never wanted to have friends over and the people she did like hanging out with were very boring people. She couldn't handle people coming over to the house unless it was spotless and this even included close family members. She was very uptight about those things.

Finally she was never open to doing something just for the fun of it or because it made me happy. I wanted to learn Japanese for the fun of it and she acted like I was trying to get her to go to school of physics. If anything made her feel "stress" she would avoid it like a plague. This includes watching even a PG movie.

I guess why I posted this is I'm wondering if any of this is related to being an INFJ and if there is any chance she might change. Like I said I could give it one more try but these seem like big mountains. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
 

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During these 12 years, a long time, these issues were not discussed thoroughly? If so was there any sign that change is possible? I mean have you asked her if she is willing to compromise on things. She probably has a list of some sort also.

As to the list, these are not particular to INFJs, they can be found with other people of different types.
 

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A lot of this sounds like my 3 year marriage with my ex. Frighteningly familiar.

Give couple's therapy a shot -- or at least suggest it - if you already haven't.

It was my last cry for "help" before I finally told my ex to leave me. She refused couple's therapy and counselling completely and walked out on me [thankfully]. Our marriage had turned emotionally abusive by then. I had started mentally preparing myself for a divorce around August 2010, and she walked out on me in March 2011. I've honestly been a lot happier since --- and from what I hear, she's already married to some guy I know she was involved with before I asked her to divorce me.

I don't know about your situation and I don't want to project, but at least in my case even though I went through the usual emotional aftermath of divorce, I'm happier than I would've been had I decided to stick it out longer than I needed.
 

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sounds like an unhealthy INFJ, been there for a year (exactly), but perhaps I didn't love her enough or wasn't wise enough?

for some people, too much is never enough, though

sounds like you are past the point of no return, suggest you let it die and insert coin again
 

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For your information I asked her for the divorce. I have quite a few reasons, but none are the bloody sins that are deadly to the relationship. Neither of us have cheated, even with the year of seperation. There was no gambling problem or drugs or drinking. No abuse, although she was very controlling.

I've finally reached the point emotionaly were I'm detached enough from the outcome that I could give it one more shot to try and fix things. But there are key issues that I would need to know she would change or it will never work.

First she was very sexually naive. Since this isn't the sex and relaitionship forum I won't get graphic but she wasn't willing to try things and I'm not even talking about the back door or S&M. She wouldn't shave or trim and reacted like I was asking her to violate her sacred being when I brought it up. Further more she was always in her head during sex and couldn't really get into it.

Second she is extremely monitarily conservative. Like you don't go on a vacation unless you have a couple months of cash reserves saved up. Money was tight for most of our marraige so that ment we rarely got out and had fun, even before we had kids. She'd get pissed if I ate lunch with a coworker to try and network because it was spending too much money.

Thirdly she was mildly antisocial. She wasn't a hermit who snarled at people walking passed the house but she never wanted to have friends over and the people she did like hanging out with were very boring people. She couldn't handle people coming over to the house unless it was spotless and this even included close family members. She was very uptight about those things.

Finally she was never open to doing something just for the fun of it or because it made me happy. I wanted to learn Japanese for the fun of it and she acted like I was trying to get her to go to school of physics. If anything made her feel "stress" she would avoid it like a plague. This includes watching even a PG movie.

I guess why I posted this is I'm wondering if any of this is related to being an INFJ and if there is any chance she might change. Like I said I could give it one more try but these seem like big mountains. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Wow. I've got to say, I'm on the verge of tears, reading this.

I am an INFJ, married to an ENTP.
About three months ago, my husband (almost) left me- for most of these reasons, actually.
We worked things out through counseling and a lot (A LOT) of work.

I'm going to throw this out here, so that you understand my point of view- I don't believe divorce is an acceptable option. For me, when you say "I do," that is final. Cheating and abuse being the only way out. I'm old fashioned, I guess you could say, but that is how I live my life. So please put everything I say through that filter. :)

I think that the issues you have with her could be stemming from her INFJ traits, but I also think it sounds like she is an unhealthy INFJ.
That being said, I think it is fixable. Absolutely.

I think that she needs personal counseling to deal with her problems with sex, as well as stress-management.

I also think that you both need marriage counseling if you are to make it through this.

She needs to understand you better, and it sounds like you need to understand her better, too.
You need to be willing to compromise both ways. If you want to do something spontaneous and fun, she needs to be able to let her guard down and give it a try, just to see if it might be fun for her too. If she is very stressed out and doesn't want to watch a certain movie, you need to be willing to choose a different movie, because you love her and want her to be happy.

It sounds like there is a lot of hurt and confusion on both sides. I'm so, so sorry that you are in this position.

I hope that, no matter what the outcome, you put everything you have into making your marriage work first.

Go to counseling. Get some good books to read separately or together (I have some recommendations, if you're interested). Stay up late and talk. Write down what you love about her. Remember the reasons you married her in the first place.

And if all else fails, and you don't think it's worth it, then do what you feel is right.
But I think that this has potential to work, and I hope that you and your wife are able to make it through this tough time, and come out on the other end stronger and closer together.
 

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Input.. Impartial opinions..
You are on the right track.. Maybe just in the wrong direction.. Have you guys tried counseling?

I mean how can any of us give you any kind of real advice without her input?
I know a little bit about your perceptions on things.. I bet she has a story to tell as well.

If you care and so does she and you haven't gone to see someone .. Why not?
If it's a money thing, dig around.. You can find sliding scale practices and such.
Look for Jewish health centers.. It's their law to help the whole community regardless of your faith or lack of.
My partner and I paid $10 bucks a session.
 

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Man if the sex is not good then that is a huge problem............. If you think you can fix that then I personally believe it's worth another shot

Best of luck to you :)
This is absolute BOLLOCKS. Sorry, to be so blunt.

Do you honestly believe that outstanding bedroom gymnastics last the entireity of a lifetime together? If so, you're naiev (and probably male).

Relationships go through phases and adapt to different points and situations in time as they run their course, and I imagine after 12 years, things could probably be a little stagnant and be quite 'samey' - but that's nothing if the couple involved can communicate. It all depends on how the OP approached wanting to spice things up with his wife as to how reciprocal she would be to his wishes - and if she didn't (which he states clearly), what was his reaction to the fact she wasn't willing to try new things? Was he understanding/mad/dismissive of her feelings on the matter etc etc.

I agree with Arclight - not a solitary person here can offer sound advice based on so little information and only one side to a story. I bet his wife's take on things is totally different - what would/could she say about you I wonder?

To the OP - it would do you good to take some of these responses with a pinch of salt - this is your MARRIAGE on the line, 12 years of dedication to the woman you once loved so deeply you wanted to marry her and keep her forever and create beautiful children together....

Think. Very. Carefully. (and seek professional guidance together!!!!!!!!)

P.S. the fact you titled this post 'About To Do Something Stupid' speaks volumes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
@The Ultimate Square Peg - Thank you for that

@ everyone - we tried three forms of counseling and none of it work. But the 1st two were relegious based and just pointed the finger at me and told me "you said I do, she is who she is so live with it." The third helped me work through my stress and emotional issues but had little impact on her. This was in part due to the fact that the first two seemed to vindicate her.

Those experiences were devistating to me and I just decided to move on. I'm to the point now where I'm emotionaly detached from the outcome of any final attempt. If she can change I'm fine with making it work, if she can't I'm fine with walking away. It may just be the NT trait of stubborness and thinking we can outsmart anything that's driving me to this, I don't know.

We spent 10 years of marriage doing either what she liked or compromising and doing things neither of us liked very much. But it never seemed to go to the point of her doing things I liked. Now we were both people who avoided confrontation and stuffed things, so the communication wasn't the best. But that has to change. I did talk to her about this the other day and asked her what where the "lines in the sand" for her as well. I don't know if it's going to work, but if it does it will be through very direct, open communicaiton.
 

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I agree with Arclight - not a solitary person here can offer sound advice based on so little information and only one side to a story. I bet his wife's take on things is totally different - what would/could she say about you I wonder?

P.S. the fact you titled this post 'About To Do Something Stupid' speaks volumes.
Two things:
After speaking to my ENTP husband about this issue, he brought to my attention that he had a lot of these same issues with me when he was considering leaving me a while back. He said that he was really convinced that it was me that needed help, not him. And what made him change his mind about leaving was realizing that, yes, I needed to change things. But he also needed to change. For example, I wasn't feeling up to sex a lot because he wasn't making me feel secure and loved in the relationship. Neither one of us were right- we both needed to focus on the other person and realize that we each had areas to work on.
I think that you do need to remember that she has a side of this, too. Not to say that she is 100% right, but that she probably has reasons that she acts the way she does. I'm sure she has hurt and frustrated you. But I'm sure you have hurt her as well.
My husband said that, as an ENTP, it's hard sometimes to see that you're not always right. Everyone struggles with that at some point, I think. But I thought it was a valid point. :)
I would be very interested to hear your wife's point of view, like @PrettyVacant said.

Also, I thought it was interesting that you titled the post the way you did as well. Why do you think it's stupid?
Something in you must be saying that it's not right, in some way.
 
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The anatomy of OP's post was basically:

1. Divorce is on the horizon.

2. Here's how she can't get along with me.

3. I am a reasonable person who isn't asking for much.

4. I want to be happy.

5. Help.

Son, here's what you need to do. Figure out, from her perspective, why you are unbearable and why sex with you is not a turn-on. I'm not talking about getting answers straight from your babe's mouth. Frankly, even if she talks (big IF), it'll sound like a bunch of emotional, irrational mumbo-jumbo. What you need to do is to meditate on yourself. Figure out what you've done wrong, what you're doing wrong, and why you're no longer the ass pirate she wants pouncing on her booty.
 

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This is absolute BOLLOCKS. Sorry, to be so blunt.

Do you honestly believe that outstanding bedroom gymnastics last the entireity of a lifetime together? If so, you're naiev (and probably male).

P.S. the fact you titled this post 'About To Do Something Stupid' speaks volumes.
Yes I am male, yes I am young, yes if I did not like the sex with my wife I would be inclined to cheat and because I would not want to hurt her like that, yeah I would divorce.

That should sum it.
 

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Yes I am male, yes I am young, yes if I did not like the sex with my wife I would be inclined to cheat and because I would not want to hurt her like that, yeah I would divorce.

That should sum it.
Yikes. :( that is sad. I'm sorry...
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
**Explicit Post**

Ok, since people seem to be focusing on the sex piece, let me be a little clearer. It's not that she stopped being sexual, it's that she never really started. She had a verbly abusive mom, that was real bad. When we got married I thought she just needed to work through those issues and then things would get better. Well she worked through them and got more self confidant in general but the sex side never came.

She is very sexually naive. We were both virgins when we got married and she wasn't comfortable with it from the start. It was the third night of our honeymoon before I even got her panties off. But I loved her and was patient.

I spent most of the marraige trying to help her through it. The only thing she was ever comfortable with was lying on our backs and giving each other hand jobs. Her whole body would tense up even at intercourse. I tryed everthing I could to make it good for her and to set the mood. She always got hers. I'd go down on her but in 10 years of marriage before this started she refused to even try going down on me.

When I tried to bring these things up she'd always break into tears and ask me to respect her inhibitions. I tried for years to make it work, but eventually it got to me. I guess thats part of why I titled this thread the way I did, becuase talking through things hasn't worked in the past. I'm just willing to give it a last try.
 

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**Explicit Post**

Ok, since people seem to be focusing on the sex piece, let me be a little clearer. It's not that she stopped being sexual, it's that she never really started. She had a verbly abusive mom, that was real bad. When we got married I thought she just needed to work through those issues and then things would get better. Well she worked through them and got more self confidant in general but the sex side never came.

She is very sexually naive. We were both virgins when we got married and she wasn't comfortable with it from the start. It was the third night of our honeymoon before I even got her panties off. But I loved her and was patient.

I spent most of the marraige trying to help her through it. The only thing she was ever comfortable with was lying on our backs and giving each other hand jobs. Her whole body would tense up even at intercourse. I tryed everthing I could to make it good for her and to set the mood. She always got hers. I'd go down on her but in 10 years of marriage before this started she refused to even try going down on me.

When I tried to bring these things up she'd always break into tears and ask me to respect her inhibitions. I tried for years to make it work, but eventually it got to me. I guess thats part of why I titled this thread the way I did, becuase talking through things hasn't worked in the past. I'm just willing to give it a last try.
I'm really sorry to hear about all of this. I'm going to be honest, here- my husband and I had a lot of those same issues.
While I do think that the problems with her abusive mother probably had an effect on her, I don't actually think that is her problem...
I don't know if this is an issue (and you don't have to share if it is), but it may be possible that she has a sexual harrassment or abuse in her past. If so, I highly recommend that she see a sexual therapist or psychologist (whether or not you guys are able to work through your marital problems).
Regardless, I do recommend that you suggest she find a counselor who can help her with her sexual inhibitions and fears. Be very sensitive in bringing this up, if you do...this is a very, very sensitive subject, especially for someone who has any sort of problem in the area.
Her sexual problems may be physical, but I'd venture to guess (fairly confidently) that they are mental. I'm sure you've heard that sex starts in the mind for a woman. If there is anything going on up there, it's going to show...well...down there.
And, as an INFJ, I can tell you that there is always something going on up there. Good or bad. It's very hard to focus on what's actually happening. And if there is any sort of wound in her past that is keeping her from mentally "getting into" sex, she will have to face and work through that before it will happen physically.
I know that there are other problems in your marriage, but I'm sure this is a significant one for you. Men want to feel wanted, and when we reject you (whether intentionally or unintentionally), it hurts you at the core. I hope you can understand that her problems with sex probably have very little to do with how attractive she thinks you are, how much you turn her on, or how much she loves you, and very much to do with her internal world.

That being said, there are things that, if you were to try again, you could do to help her.
Encourage her to introspect and figure out why sex is uncomfortable for her. Reassure her that she is beautiful, and that you love her (when that is true), and that you desire to be intimate with her, but only when she is ready. Support her in her attempts to figure herself out, and be patient. And most of all, if you ever do have sex with her again, encourage her. Tell her that there is nothing wrong with her, and that you love her just the way she is. Obviously, only say what you mean. But if you ever mean even one of these things, say it.
 
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Well...

It sounds like you feel she could give more, and she feels she can't give anymore then she has been. And you feel like you've been the one to do most of the bending to get past that impasse whenever it happens.

First thing is to ask if that's really true, and if it has been only you doing the bending...you said she's better than she was.

The other thing is--have you asked her if what you're doing is helping? Tell her the problem, ask if she has any ideas about how to fix it. People react a lot better if they're given a chance to use their own brainpower, rather than just being forced or manipulated into something. If she loves you, she'll understand the problem. She may be just as solution-less as you are, but at least you'll be on the same page. And that's the beginning to a better relationship.

Last thing is...if you're feeling like you're doing an inordinate amount of the giving in a relationship, stop blaming the other person, and stop giving so much! In the end, you can only ask for cooperation, and change yourself--not them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@The Ultimate Square Peg

That is very helpful. I'm glad you shared about going through the same thing and working through it. I've honestly felt at a loss at working through things with her. I knew what was going on in her head was impacting things, but from what your saying it sounds like it's at the core.

@Aizar - I enjoy giving in a relationship, I just want it to be reciprocated. I'll go to the ends of the earth for someone but would hope they'd respond in like manner.
 

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@Aizar - I enjoy giving in a relationship, I just want it to be reciprocated. I'll go to the ends of the earth for someone but would hope they'd respond in like manner.
Which is a good thing! Though if its not reciprocated, it can get draining fast, and lead the giver to resentment. Kind of like how giving money to charities is good, but you have to be careful not to give so much you're in poverty yourself. "Emotional" giving can work the same way.
 
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