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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I like creating. I like starting projects, essays, and having absolute control over what I make. I get to be creative, original, and find that learn the most when I have an object to focus on. To me, reading is just...too boring, too much work. It's too little doing. And often, my biggest problems center on not having enough basis in reality--not enough research, not enough content.

So, I was thinking:

What if Pe was creating and Pi was absorbing?

Pe is active and wants to perceive through the creation and extraversion of perception; creating something tangible to then refine it later.

Pi is passive and wants to perceive through reading, watching; gathering much more information over time.

Thoughts?
 

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You are exactly reversing the Pi and Pe meaning. Why do you create? Because you are imagine the result. And imagining is the definition of Ni function. And when you are implementing it, it is Te function working. So, creating is about Ni/Te. While Ne is about understanding concepts, so reading a book is Ne/Ji work because words are concepts.
 

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You are exactly reversing the Pi and Pe meaning. Why do you create? Because you are imagine the result. And imagining is the definition of Ni function. And when you are implementing it, it is Te function working. So, creating is about Ni/Te. While Ne is about understanding concepts, so reading a book is Ne/Ji work because words are concepts.
Very well. I don't at all agree. However I'll listen if you justify Se/Si in this manner as well.
 

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Yes, oh my goodness. That makes sense for me with Ni and Ne, at least. Ni - my Ni, that is - wants to gather gather gather all the information, try to form the best understanding of the world, picture of this little universe we live in. Ne, though... I can't speak for all Ne things, or any, but it seems to me that Ne is looking to create new things? Like, that's a fun idea, but what if we did this? Ne users I know tend to believe that anything can be made that is original, there are so many things out there that haven't been created, while I consistently believe that all ideas are just recycling of old ideas. (Which isn't a bad thing, and interesting combinations can be made, but there's never truly an original story or house design, etc.)

However, I understand and "absorb" partially so I can create. I harness great literature and timeless themes so that someday I may (hopefully) create my own combination of classic elements that harness my observations of the universe and my judgments of those observations, share my understanding of humanity and such.

And I'm not sure how Si and Se would be creating and absorbing? I can easily see how Si absorbs, but Se creating? I suppose you mean Se creating the environment, creating physical things? Hmm. (Sorry for not quite getting that, and sorry if I've misinterpreted your whole thing.)

Edit: about your comments on essays and such, I'm something of the opposite. I love to read, to just figure out things, gather all the information I can about something and let it soak in and leak into my perceptions and understanding of the world. That's basically why I love school so much :) I can't imagine wanting to do an essay or a project. I mean, I get in the zone when I do essays or projects and that's enjoyable, but it also makes me feel as if I'm on the edge of a cliff because so much hangs on if I get things just right, and I wonder if I will or not. It's nice once it comes out, and I feel much more settled, but until that point... I would rather be listening to a lecture, taking notes, researching something...
 

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This sounds somewhat like some thoughts I've had, not exactly the same though. I find I go through phases of absorbing and 'generating' as I call it. There are times when I don't seem to have the will or focus to do something myself, but I crave reading, watching, listening, taking it all in. Then I'll switch to generating mode where I don't have patience for taking things in and will barely start them only to stop reading/watching/listening and start doing my own writing/thinking/creating. These phases can last for weeks or only a couple days, it fluctuates. I do find that even while in absorbing mode though I often have to pause to do a little mental generating where I'll jot down an idea it gave me or take a moment to develop an idea further on my own before continuing to read about it and how someone else has developed that idea. If I don't pause for that personal mental processing I tend to feel overwhelmed by all the information and it stops sinking in, I can't really just take it in I need to do something with the ideas and information myself at least mentally in order to really feel like I'm learning something - and depending on what it is trying it out and experimenting myself can really be vital to fully taking it in. I always figured this was flipping between Perceiving (absorbing) and Judging (generating), and my dominant being judging would make me do that a bit more often than absorbing. For instance I come up with a lot more story ideas than I actually read books, even though I like reading, often doing so will send me off into idea generating mode and I'll get distracted with that instead of just finishing the book.

I'm not really sure what I think regarding Pe vs. Pi on this matter.... it's something worth further contemplation :)
 

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From an outsiders perspective, Extroverted Intuition seems like an adaptation of many existing concepts without a need to dive deep within a single one and to form its own perception – completely exploratory without any real aim. Ni in itself doesn't view perception objectively, therefore it's constantly creating a concept of what it thinks it is versus what it is. I don't know why that's denied as a form of creation just because it forms a single point versus an "explosion" of ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
From an outsiders perspective, Extroverted Intuition seems like an adaptation of many existing concepts without a need to dive deep within a single one and to form its own perception – completely exploratory without any real aim. Ni in itself doesn't view perception objectively, therefore it's constantly creating a concept of what it thinks it is versus what it is. I don't know why that's denied as a form of creation just because it forms a single point versus an "explosion" of ideas.
The last sentence highlights a very boring perspective. Ne and Ni are often differentiated as such, and I really don't think it's all that simple. It's a trope that annoys me when people try to describe the two. Sure, it works. It's just not...right? Eh, regardless:

You're right about Ne jumping around without really diving deep--take that conceptual perceptive and apply it to reality and you have an Ne dom. You described Ne as exploratory--and that's true. In that aspect, I feel the need to create in order to explore. To exert in order to understand.

Whereas Ni, as you described, creates an impression based on what is seen. It doesn't feel the need to try things on like Pe; rather, as you said, it creates a concept of what it thinks. Yet, in order to do this, it must absorb what surrounds it.

I think where you went wrong was the interpretation of the label. Creating vs. absorbing refers to ones orientation toward outside information.
 

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The last sentence highlights a very boring perspective. Ne and Ni are often differentiated as such, and I really don't think it's all that simple. It's a trope that annoys me when people try to describe the two. Sure, it works. It's just not...right? Eh, regardless:

You're right about Ne jumping around without really diving deep--take that conceptual perceptive and apply it to reality and you have an Ne dom. You described Ne as exploratory--and that's true. In that aspect, I feel the need to create in order to explore. To exert in order to understand.

Whereas Ni, as you described, creates an impression based on what is seen. It doesn't feel the need to try things on like Pe; rather, as you said, it creates a concept of what it thinks. Yet, in order to do this, it must absorb what surrounds it.

I think where you went wrong was the interpretation of the label. Creating vs. absorbing refers to ones orientation toward outside information.
Both Ne and Ni deal with a perception of reality. As you’ve said yourself, you would prefer to observe objective reality in order to create or to find value. Ni would prefer to create a subjective perception of objective reality, therefore seeing what is not being seen in objective reality (“reading between the lines”). You’re incorrect with saying that Ne isn’t absorbing information, because it is objectively. The only difference between Ni and Ne is what they do with their perception. Art, music, or even systems of information is created through peoples perspectives of the world, whether that’s subjectively or objectively represented through perception.

The reason why Ne is described as an "explosion of ideas", is because it has a tendency to turn to many objective perceptions at a given time to understand how it all connects together. The value is then found from either Fi/Te or Ti/Fe

Whereas Ni, as you described, creates an impression based on what is seen. It doesn't feel the need to try things on like Pe; rather, as you said, it creates a concept of what it thinks. Yet, in order to do this, it must absorb what surrounds it.
Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken — it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the ‘voice of one crying in the wilderness’.
Carl Jung on Ni dominates. What you're ideally noticing is how both Si and Ni adapt to the subjective perception, which would be something that you would reject as an Ne dom user, therefore seeing them as absorbing and not wanting to "trying on new things".
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
An example maybe?
I just want to create. When it comes to art, I cannot STAND planning. Sure, I might have some vague idea in mind, but like all "artists" I just let the piece speak to me. If it's not doing what I want it to, I bend to it and let it become something else. I don't try to force my creation to be a certain way.

I think you don't understand the conception of not planning before creating simply because you don't do that yourself.

And tbh, very little of my time is spent on planning. I'd much rather get some quick outline and then pump a product out. Outlines are just...so time consuming and don't really feel worth the effort. I've learned their importance as I've aged, but it was never my default.
 

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I like creating. I like starting projects, essays, and having absolute control over what I make. I get to be creative, original, and find that learn the most when I have an object to focus on. To me, reading is just...too boring, too much work. It's too little doing. And often, my biggest problems center on not having enough basis in reality--not enough research, not enough content.

So, I was thinking:

What if Pe was creating and Pi was absorbing?

Pe is active and wants to perceive through the creation and extraversion of perception; creating something tangible to then refine it later.

Pi is passive and wants to perceive through reading, watching; gathering much more information over time.

Thoughts?
I disagree with this. The most intensely creative people I have ever encountered are Ni-doms. It seems like all they are doing is some artistic creation of something. From what I can observe, they tend heavily toward art in one way or another... both INTJ and INFJ. In fact, the absence of this has made me come to realize that some that I thought were Ni-doms were not, and that I was simply seeing ISxJs with good use of Ne or whose Si/Ne manifested in a (ultimately rather typical) love of fantasy and imagination.

However, I'd say that those who seem to be the ultimate consumers are Se-doms, in one sense, and Si-doms in another sense. To say that Se-doms are the great consumers or absorbers should be a no-brainer. The latest everything. Video games, board games, clothes, equipment, huge TVs, the finest wine, the latest craze. Se-doms. The best of the best, no expense spared. They aren't collectors, typically, and that is where the Si types come in. Si types appear to be prone to hoarding, of one kind or another, and seem inclined to obtain sets or collections sometimes in a fairly obsessive manner. I've seen ESxJs do it, but ISxJs seem almost universally so-inclined. Is that absorbing? I don't know if they would see it that way, so maybe not.

Anyway, I don't think that Se-doms are by any means near the top of the list of most-inclined-to-create. They just aren't. They are fishing for experiences and that is a fundamentally 'absorbing' act. They are just kinda whimsical and ADD about it.

Ne types don't really share this trait, other than that they are consistently on the lookout for something that offers progressive possibility on a grand scope. They aren't so much interested in experiencing this for the sake of experiencing it, but in pushing it forward or seeing it pushed forward to greater progressive scope. So, I guess this makes them more on the creative side...

I guess what I mean to say is that all types tend to do both, but I'd say Se is lower on the list of creative vs absorbing than, say, Ni... which is actually quite high in my experience.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I disagree with this. The most intensely creative people I have ever encountered are Ni-doms. It seems like all they are doing is some artistic creation of something. From what I can observe, they tend heavily toward art in one way or another... both INTJ and INFJ. In fact, the absence of this has made me come to realize that some that I thought were Ni-doms were not, and that I was simply seeing ISxJs with good use of Ne or whose Si/Ne manifested in a (ultimately rather typical) love of fantasy and imagination.

However, I'd say that those who seem to be the ultimate consumers are Se-doms, in one sense, and Si-doms in another sense. To say that Se-doms are the great consumers or absorbers should be a no-brainer. The latest everything. Video games, board games, clothes, equipment, huge TVs, the finest wine, the latest craze. Se-doms. The best of the best, no expense spared. They aren't collectors, typically, and that is where the Si types come in. Si types appear to be prone to hoarding, of one kind or another, and seem inclined to obtain sets or collections sometimes in a fairly obsessive manner. I've seen ESxJs do it, but ISxJs seem almost universally so-inclined. Is that absorbing? I don't know if they would see it that way, so maybe not.

Anyway, I don't think that Se-doms are by any means near the top of the list of most-inclined-to-create. They just aren't. They are fishing for experiences and that is a fundamentally 'absorbing' act. They are just kinda whimsical and ADD about it.
I think you, like the others, are missing my point. Or maybe I'm not expressing it correctly. Either way:

Pe needs to exert some external force in order to perceive. I don't disagree with you in that Ni is the most creative. Nor do I disagree with you that Se tends to consume. I mean, I tend to consume media as well, yet how does it work for me? I absorb the information, store impressions and rework them into the more general and abstracted understandings. I then reapply them to my current subject to make it work.

Think about it like this. Sure, Pe consumes, but how does it do this? It jumps from one thing to the other, bouncing, as you said, as if they have ADD. It's much more immersive for the Se dom than the Ne dom, though. Yet, realize--it feels the needs to try these things first. It must immerse itself and then come back with a sort of understanding--a lesson, if I may.

Pi is different. It needs something external to process what should be done. As in, there needs to be a sort of absorption. In Ni, this is Se--the subconscious absorption of external sensual information. Ni recollects these and creates an understanding; however, the absorption comes first.

Ne types don't really share this trait, other than that they are consistently on the lookout for something that offers progressive possibility on a grand scope. They aren't so much interested in experiencing this for the sake of experiencing it, but in pushing it forward or seeing it pushed forward to greater progressive scope. So, I guess this makes them more on the creative side...
I really don't see what you're saying here. It's vague enough to be completely useless, really.
 

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I think you, like the others, are missing my point. Or maybe I'm not expressing it correctly. Either way:

Pe needs to exert some external force in order to perceive. I don't disagree with you in that Ni is the most creative. Nor do I disagree with you that Se tends to consume. I mean, I tend to consume media as well, yet how does it work for me? I absorb the information, store impressions and rework them into the more general and abstracted understandings. I then reapply them to my current subject to make it work.

Think about it like this. Sure, Pe consumes, but how does it do this? It jumps from one thing to the other, bouncing, as you said, as if they have ADD. It's much more immersive for the Se dom than the Ne dom, though. Yet, realize--it feels the needs to try these things first. It must immerse itself and then come back with a sort of understanding--a lesson, if I may.

Pi is different. It needs something external to process what should be done. As in, there needs to be a sort of absorption. In Ni, this is Se--the subconscious absorption of external sensual information. Ni recollects these and creates an understanding; however, the absorption comes first.



I really don't see what you're saying here. It's vague enough to be completely useless, really.
You said:

Pe is active and wants to perceive through the creation and extraversion of perception; creating something tangible to then refine it later.

Pi is passive and wants to perceive through reading, watching; gathering much more information over time.
Aka, Pe wants to perceive through creation and Pi wants to perceive passively. In a sense, one is Creating and the other is Absorbing. My response is that Ni types, in my experience, are rather constantly in a state of creation and seem as disinclined as any to passivity in this regard.

However, if you mean that Pe types need to engage to learn, or prefer to gather information by quickly utilizing whatever object or stimulus they encounter... and learning as they go, then, yes, I'd agree.

As far as my uselessly vague paragraph on Ne - you are welcome to disregard it.
 

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I disagree with this. The most intensely creative people I have ever encountered are Ni-doms. It seems like all they are doing is some artistic creation of something. From what I can observe, they tend heavily toward art in one way or another... both INTJ and INFJ. In fact, the absence of this has made me come to realize that some that I thought were Ni-doms were not, and that I was simply seeing ISxJs with good use of Ne or whose Si/Ne manifested in a (ultimately rather typical) love of fantasy and imagination.
But is it not the extroverted judging function then, that is doing the creating? And are you sure these people are Ni-doms? Or is it that you perceive them as Ni doms simply because they are creative as you see it?
 

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I just want to create. When it comes to art, I cannot STAND planning. Sure, I might have some vague idea in mind, but like all "artists" I just let the piece speak to me. If it's not doing what I want it to, I bend to it and let it become something else. I don't try to force my creation to be a certain way.

I think you don't understand the conception of not planning before creating simply because you don't do that yourself.

And tbh, very little of my time is spent on planning. I'd much rather get some quick outline and then pump a product out. Outlines are just...so time consuming and don't really feel worth the effort. I've learned their importance as I've aged, but it was never my default.
No, i know. But, when you have no standard in creating something, it is not that you don't use Ni function. It is only that you use Fe function. Fe function makes you do something that has no standards. Ni function is about recalling physical objects in your mind.

Fi function makes you believe in something without any standard just like Fe function makes you doing something without any standard. Ti function makes you critical in absorbing information just like Te function makes you doing something with some standards.
 

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But is it not the extroverted judging function then, that is doing the creating? And are you sure these people are Ni-doms? Or is it that you perceive them as Ni doms simply because they are creative as you see it?
I have them as Ni doms for a few reasons:

1) They are pointedly introverted... in the classic sense. Quiet, spend most of their time alone as a matter of preference, and are drained by excessive social interaction.

2) They are pre-occupied with incomprehensible and highly abstract symbols and images that are engrossing to them and, while compelling to some others, are mainly valuable for their perplexing aesthetic potential as their meaning is deeply impressionistic and all but impossible to decipher for others. This second aspect is the primary thrust of their cognition. Most of their effort is spent in solitude indulging themselves in these impressionistic perceptions.

3) They are not Ti nor Fi doms because of the above but also based on the fact that Fi-doms would show the after-effects of constant internal moral wrestling. That is to say that an Fi dom will excel at perceiving the nuance of value in any situation - and it will be a strength for them. So to will we see the after-effects of the constant logical rumination of the Ti-dom, who will seem to have thought at length about whatever subject engrosses them and will thus prove a great source for nuance of logic. An Ni dom would be weak on both counts. The INFJ would show Fe, first of all, and the INTJ would show a weakness in Fi and would come across more of a Te type when extraverting. This is the case for all of these individuals.

4) They all tested, without my influence and before we discussed typology, as INxJs on various tests. Those tests tend to lose or misplace edge cases or unusual cases, and despite my great faith in my own typing ability, I prefer to only use those who tested as I thought they would independently of me as examples.

Jung thought that Ni-doms would primarily be artists, and the more I refine my view of types, the more I find myself perceiving the same thing.

Anyway, there are countless examples of Pi-doms who were prolific in their crafts .. and equally as many Pe doms who seem to have accomplished little in their lives.

However, I think that @Raawx was right in saying that I misunderstood. If the question is of learning style, namely that Pe doms tend to get just enough information to engage and utilize something, and then fill in the gaps as they go.. and that Pi doms would naturally be more inclined to gather a greater whole before engaging, I think the assertion has merit.

Then again, I seem to recall my INFJ became proficient in Photoshop by just kinda diving in and learning as the ever expanding situations he encountered required. So, maybe it is a more complex consideration after all. Hard to say.
 

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However, I think that @Raawx was right in saying that I misunderstood. If the question is of learning style, namely that Pe doms tend to get just enough information to engage and utilize something, and then fill in the gaps as they go.. and that Pi doms would naturally be more inclined to gather a greater whole before engaging, I think the assertion has merit.

Then again, I seem to recall my INFJ became proficient in Photoshop by just kinda diving in and learning as the ever expanding situations he encountered required. So, maybe it is a more complex consideration after all. Hard to say.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I still ask, though, is not the actual creative function still going to be extroverted? In the case of the INXJ, it would be either their Fe or Te, (verbally, I would presume, mostly) or their weaker Se, I would think. I look at my daughters (who you describe quite well in your explanation, btw), and both, while enjoying their drawing or piano playing, do so much better at writing. I tried to convince my older daughter (the INFJ) that she ought to consider that at least, a writing career, because I fear that she will find using her inferior Se to be draining, if she's using it all the time. I've lived years using my Te for my professional life, and have an idea what it's like. It's one thing to be an artist for one's avocation, but for a profession for an INXJ. I don't know...
 

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I just want to create. When it comes to art, I cannot STAND planning. Sure, I might have some vague idea in mind, but like all "artists" I just let the piece speak to me. If it's not doing what I want it to, I bend to it and let it become something else. I don't try to force my creation to be a certain way.

I think you don't understand the conception of not planning before creating simply because you don't do that yourself.

And tbh, very little of my time is spent on planning. I'd much rather get some quick outline and then pump a product out. Outlines are just...so time consuming and don't really feel worth the effort. I've learned their importance as I've aged, but it was never my default.
As a Ni dom I'm completed the opposite, I plan everything in great details. My goal is to find that "secret recipe", lay down guidelines, steps and goals that I can apply to any kind of project. It's like finding a formula to solve any problem I might encounter.

I'm not a creator, but I like art. While randomness and going with the flow can pay off, the whole piece often ends up non cohesive, scattered, which I take as a waste of otherwise good ideas and talent. I like to organize and make things efficient, implementing ideas inside a larger system.
 
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