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And as for the rest of you, shame on you.

I'm sorry if you have abusive mothers, but do NOT try to equate ESFJ with abusive. A person is abusive or controlling because of who THEY are, NOT because they are ESFJ, or INTJ, or what have you.

INTJs too have the ability to be abusive (as any type really; currently, my roommates and I are having trouble with the "crazy ENFP"). I grew up with an abusive and controlling INTJ family member, but I would never dare to generalize to all INTJs. ENTJs I can imagine would probably be even worse, since they're usually more vocal and more up front about wanting to be in control.

Agreed. In fact, this trait is how I can spot an ESFJ anywhere. That and the flashy clothing. The thing is about the ESFJ is what they hate the most in the entire world is to feel badly in any way. Usually I try to get what I can out of pissing them off more once they are because there isn't a way to fix it.
I wish I could say this is the most inane thing I have ever read, but this website continuously never ceases to amaze me. Clearly, you are only spotting a certain type of ESFJ that more obviously fits your stereotypes...I can easily do that for ENTJs since many of them tend to be annoyingly egotistic, insist that God gave them the right to boss everyone around, and always try to show off how smart and in control they are at the risk of belittling every one else. Also, have you ever tried telling an ENTJ they're wrong and that you might actually be right, if they've already got it into their heads they're the smartest person in the room? At least INTJs are more likely to ponder what you have to say instead of just dismissing yo. However, I know that's only a very small section of ENTJs. I want to believe you are nothing like what I just described. I keep an open mind and have found plenty others who do not fit this stereotype at all and are increasingly loving and humble.
 

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Look everyone, just because this person may be a kid, that doesn't mean his mom isn't abusive.
From what he describes, it reminds me if my abusive mother. I remember trying to tell people about some of her irrational discipline and these adults would say, "Honor thy mother" or "Respect her wishes" "You need to listen to your mother" when she was incapable of being a mother.
I feel your hurt op, your "mom" sounds like a nut, I bet her room is a pig sty, she may have a low income, does not take care of you and your sister and yet pays strangers/bums for a quick self-esteem fix.

As I am an adult now, I have limited contact with my "mom" so as to fulfill her basic maternal need for contact. We dont talk about my personal life. I set the relationship bounfaries. She is still unwell and there is no way in hell I would leave any children I may have with her and have all relations regarding my significants go through me.

I hope you can find a way out of this situation. Get yourself into college/out of the house soon and don't hesitate to seek therapy if you experience some issues etc.

Good luck man!
 

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One of the most important yet difficult parts of growing up into your own individual is to recognize your parents as unique human beings separate from other parents. Everyone has their own way of raising their young, and according to your mom's rulebook, what she is doing is right. From what you have written, the "abuse" that she has put you through in terms of money should not be affecting you. Your mother is the one to decide what to do with the money she earns in the family. If you do, for instance, have a significant reason to consider her caretaking as physically abusive(punching for no reason, threatening you with a knife, etc.), then you must report it immediately; otherwise, you honestly need to accept your mother for who she is while you're still living with her. Until you are in your twenties, you have no right to identify yourself as a complete adult under the guidance of your mother who cares for you in a way that she understands is best. You have no idea what will actually happen to you in your life, so be thankful that your mom has a chance to give you the home and relationships (warmth) you need to feel at least somewhat fulfilled. There are those who don't have as much as you do, so keep that in mind. Life has its contradictions, and even I mentally brawl with my parents on so many levels, but if it means you having to spend a maximum of two minutes with her to show her that you're thankful, you do your work, you're patient, etc.(I see you are conflicting personalities) then do that, and go to your room or outside to relax and do your own thing. Once you make enough money to move out, do that...but until then, there's not much you can do but train yourself to be as respectful as you can.
 

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That's the thing sweetheart. Kids aren't capable of judgement when it comes to assessing their environment. I make my child eat the dirt off my shoe to speak, and she will do it because she understands the age-old tradition of respecting your parents. Now the newer generation doesn't and I feel blessed for having brought up a child that is neither spoiled nor foul in attitude.
I'm curious. Do you believe it is impossible for a parent to be abusive, by means other than neglecting to give their child a "proper education", so to speak?

Trust me, I don't give a rats-ass about the feelings of my kids nor do I care about their intelligence. As long as they do what is right and obey commands. In other words, kids are reliant on the judgement of their superiors, and should inquire based on their feelings and perception, rather than act upon it and decide to make decisions like not respecting their parents.

What about judgements that are purely qualitative in nature, such as whether whether it's worth taking a certain amount of risk for a certain reward?
 

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I'm guessing that you're still fairly young, but denying your future children to meet their grandmother is very selfish, your children has nothing to do with your personal dispute with your mother.
I can understand where you're coming from, but it sounds like OP's mother is pretty abusive. If she can't control her emotional and physical abuse then I think he's making the right decision in keeping his future children away from her. You really can't reason with abusive people, they'll always justify their actions.

My grandmother is a physically and emotionally abusive person (damaged ESFP) and the only way she's going to see my child is through a telescope.

My husband's mother is an emotionally manipulative/abusive ISFJ (kinda similar to OP's mom in a lot of ways), but seeing as she's not physically abusive and I have to deal with her on a pretty regular basis (my husband has difficulty moving on and cutting toxic people out of his life) our child will be able to visit her. I probably won't tell our kid much about the true nature of their grandmother until they're old enough to process the information, and so long as she doesn't harm our kid in any way she'll be able to see her or him. I don't think that OP's mother is even that cooperative sadly.

Anyways, I recommend getting as much distance as possible from your mother. Never let her have any power over you if you can help it. I.E. don't borrow money, don't rely on her for anything revolving around survival needs (food, shelter, etc...). It really sucks having abusive family, because you can't rely on them for the basic things that most people depend on their family for. It's also exceptionally hard to strike out on your own now with the economic situation. Not impossible, just grueling and frustrating. It DOES, however, beat having to deal with horrible living situations. There are a lot of abusive bosses out there in the job market but thankfully you don't have to go home to those fuggers, lol.

I probably should've read all 6 pages but I don't have the time tonight, sorry if this has already been addressed.
 

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@Kebachi
Amen.

@Others
You may think a teenage kid who says their parents are abusive is simply acting up/finding their own identity when they say their parents are abusive. However, there may be deeper meanings behind a few statements that unless you have experience/understanding in these situations that you may not be able to recognize it.

I hope the next time a child/teenager comes out to you about certain issues that you be more mindful that abuse may actually be occurring in the home.

The OP has put out some solid statements:
"you are such a psycho for making me feel this bad" and when i tell her that she is being too sensitive she just starts going into rage mode
`ve always cared my sister and protected her through my childhood and now my sister doesn`t want me to talk to her anymore because i upset her dear mother.I must admit i felt betrayed as i tried my entire life to keep her away from the emotional abuse my mother provokes on her.
And others....
 

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@inregardstomyself - I sense a lot of emotional energy coming from your post. Please keep in mind this thread was created years ago and the OP has long gone disappeared. I seriously don't think the OP and additional comments were targeting ALL ESFJs. It just so happens, an alleged abuser is an "ESFJ". For all I care, the abuser could be ALIEN. Bottom line, the child needed to vent and get things off his(her) chest.

Please don't take such offense to additional commenters.
@All - I think we all can agree here that this thread just needs to die. If the OP was in dire need for help, this thread would of continued long after 2012.

Move on everyone.
 

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@inregardstomyself - I sense a lot of emotional energy coming from your post. Please keep in mind this thread was created years ago and the OP has long gone disappeared. I seriously don't think the OP and additional comments were targeting ALL ESFJs. It just so happens, an alleged abuser is an "ESFJ". For all I care, the abuser could be ALIEN. Bottom line, the child needed to vent and get things off his(her) chest.

Please don't take such offense to additional commenters.
@All - I think we all can agree here that this thread just needs to die. If the OP was in dire need for help, this thread would of continued long after 2012.

Move on everyone.
I actually didn't pay attention to the date of creation. Should've figured since it usually takes years for any posts on this forum to get beyond 3 pages.

I don't know if you saw my first post, but I was actually trying to be sympathetic/helpful towards the OP, because I understood perfectly he/she was talking about his/her specific mother who happened to be ESFJ and not ranting about ESFJs in general.

It was the other comments I saw that were verging very dangerously on ESFJ = controlling and abusive. And I thought I would make a separate post to address that, so I wouldn't diminish the (perhaps now outdated) OP's concerns. Heck some of them weren't even "verging", as they were very blatantly stating. Please understand that this isn't the first time posts like these happen. Most times when people post about ESFJs it's usually very negative generalizations that, yes, they tend to carry over to everyone (sometimes, they might add the disclaimer "I know not all are like that"). I don't see how having to see things like that over and over and over wouldn't make someone emotionally charged.
 

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I'm curious. Do you believe it is impossible for a parent to be abusive, by means other than neglecting to give their child a "proper education", so to speak?
Anything and everything can be labeled as abusive, depending on culture, perspective, sensitivity, poltical correctness or that one book you read that told you you're raising up your children wrong. I therefore believe that it is impossible not to be abusive.

If I tell my boys to stop hitting like girls this might be found offensive by a big bunch of polticially correct degenerates. Even though it is a common saying. Is that what you're getting at?




What about judgements that are purely qualitative in nature, such as whether whether it's worth taking a certain amount of risk for a certain reward?
Many qualitative things can be rationalized in the form of quantity. The formula for your example is "impact" x "likelihood" = "risk".
Now the first two parameters can be quantified based on personal experience, historical events or statistical analysis. Together they form risk. Risk can be evaluated against the reward to assess wether it is worth taking a certain action.

I teach my kids to follow a rational thought pattern in order to make their judgement and foresee consequences before they do anything stupid. And this, is my judgement of how my kids will be raised. And no law or "expert" will change it.

The biggest challenge as a mother is to provide my children with a moral compass and advantageous psychopathic traits at the same time. It is a very delicate balance but necessary to prevent antisocial behavior and disinhibition.
 

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Anything and everything can be labeled as abusive, depending on culture, perspective, sensitivity, poltical correctness or that one book you read that told you you're raising up your children wrong. I therefore believe that it is impossible not to be abusive.
Alright, then. By the same token, though, wouldn't it be impossible to be an "inferior" child, or for that matter for a judgement to be "inferior"? Since the goodness or badness of an outcome is also a subjective value judgement.

Moreover, relating this back to a child's judgement for a moment, if abuse is rated subjectively, wouldn't the child's judgement be irrelevant to a certain extent? If hitting is abuse than if a child is hit they are abused. Do you believe a child cannot judge whether they were hit or not?

If I tell my boys to stop hitting like girls this might be found offensive by a big bunch of polticially correct degenerates. Even though it is a common saying. Is that what you're getting at?
I would question why they are required to hit like men at all. It isn't necessary in society, as girls live just fine in it.






Many qualitative things can be rationalized in the form of quantity. The formula for your example is "impact" x "likelihood" = "risk".
Now the first two parameters can be quantified based on personal experience, historical events or statistical analysis. Together they form risk. Risk can be evaluated against the reward to assess wether it is worth taking a certain action.

I teach my kids to follow a rational thought pattern in order to make their judgement and foresee consequences before they do anything stupid. And this, is my judgement of how my kids will be raised. And no law or "expert" will change it.
People in general (that includes children) can evaluate risk this way on their own, or at least through a variety of different methods of upbringing. Why is your method superior?


The biggest challenge as a mother is to provide my children with a moral compass and advantageous psychopathic traits at the same time. It is a very delicate balance, I can tell you that.
What if they don't want to have advantageous psychopathic traits or your moral code?
 

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I'm going to go resurrect some old threads now:p
 
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Alright, then. By the same token, though, wouldn't it be impossible to be an "inferior" child, or for that matter for a judgement to be "inferior"? Since the goodness or badness of an outcome is also a subjective value judgement.
Truth is absolute, and therefore, values can be boolean absolutes. While humans are imperfect, unable to achieve perfection - we should still aim to achieve perfection, even if we will never reach it. That is my judgement, which is inevitably subjective and which I hold to be superior over that of my children.


Moreover, relating this back to a child's judgement for a moment, if abuse is rated subjectively, wouldn't the child's judgement be irrelevant to a certain extent? If hitting is abuse than if a child is hit they are abused. Do you believe a child cannot judge whether they were hit or not?
I teach my children that pain is weakness leaving their body. Moreover, I don't care what judgement the child makes if they are hit, nor do I care about who started it or what the reason is. All I want is my child to be victorious and hit back where it hurts, hard. And boy, do they succeed. Domination is an alpha trait.

But to answer your question. Yes a child is able to interpret whether they were hit or not. It is sensory information. They are not able to discern between being hit or being abused, however.

I would question why they are required to hit like men at all. It isn't necessary in society, as girls live just fine in it.
I place more value in the muscular strength of my children to survive life-threatening situations in society. Because societies..they don't tend to last long.


People in general (that includes children) can evaluate risk this way on their own, or at least through a variety of different methods of upbringing. Why is your method superior?
I am professionally involved in assessing and mitigating risks. Not only my children, but entire companies rely on my ability to manage crisis-situations if necessary. While my way of dealing with risk is subjective, it is the most educated and professional prespective on methodical management of risk.

Still, I do not wish my children to be dependent on my evaluation of risk till they grow up to be manchildren. When my kid was a toddler, she approached burning ember in my indoor fireplace. She tried to grab a piece of wood which was emanating a pretty orange glow.

I could have stopped her, but instead I let her touch the piece of wood. She shrieked and cried after doing so, realizing that the pretty piece of wood is hot. Since that day, I never had to shadowstep my child while she roamed the house fearing she might fall into the fireplace.

What if they don't want to have advantageous psychopathic traits or your moral code?
Children are incapable of making that judgement. All they think about is eat, drink, shit and play.

Sadly, we live in a time were effiminate degenerates are inclined to cut off the balls of their son because he tried wearing his mom's skirt for fun. Good thing my values are superior compared to the progressive wave of degeneracy that is plagueing the lands.
 

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I'm sorry but OP's mother does not sound abusive, and if she is then my parents were super abusive.
My mom was a junkie whore, locked me up and didn't feed me. Did nothing when her boyfriends would beat me up. Just because some folk undergo more extreme abusive situations doesn't meant that situations like the one described here aren't still abusive.
 

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My mom was a junkie whore, locked me up and didn't feed me. Did nothing when her boyfriends would beat me up. Just because some folk undergo more extreme abusive situations doesn't meant that situations like the one described here aren't still abusive.
First of all, thank you for your vulnerability in sharing your experience. I'm at the point where I can't talk about the things that have happened to me, so what that says to me is that you're brave and have recovered extensively.

I'm not saying the situation wasn't awful and at times absolutely intolerable!... but "abusive" just seems a bit strong to me. Manipulative? Absolutely. An unfortunate situation? No doubt.

But I feel like "abusive" is a very strong accusation not to be thrown about lightly. To me it entails to need to engage Child Protective Services and get the gets out of the situation pronto (such as yours). You know where I'm coming from?
 

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First of all, thank you for your vulnerability in sharing your experience. I'm at the point where I can't talk about the things that have happened to me, so what that says to me is that you're brave and have recovered extensively.
Thank you, that's sweet of you to say. I don't know about myself being brave, my attitude is: "It is what it is, it happened." I think it might be my Fe that makes it easier to be open and adaptive. I've noticed it's a lot harder on Fi users because they're such naturally private people. It could quite honestly just be a functional thing. MBTI is pretty interesting when it comes to situations like this.

I'm not saying the situation wasn't awful and at times absolutely intolerable!... but "abusive" just seems a bit strong to me. Manipulative? Absolutely. An unfortunate situation? No doubt.

But I feel like "abusive" is a very strong accusation not to be thrown about lightly. To me it entails to need to engage Child Protective Services, removing the children from the situation pronto (such as yours). You know where I'm coming from?
Yeah, I do actually get where you're coming from. ESPECIALLY when I run into people and have conversations like this:
Person A: "Yeah, my father was really abusive..."
Me: "That sucks, I had an abusive childhood too so I know where you're coming from :C
Person A: "I know, it's like...he didn't always have to be so critical of me. I have feelings too!"
Me: "Wait...what?"

But I will say, OP did mention that his mother was physically abusive as well.
 

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Thank you, that's sweet of you to say. I don't know about myself being brave, my attitude is: "It is what it is, it happened." I think it might be my Fe that makes it easier to be open and adaptive. I've noticed it's a lot harder on Fi users because they're such naturally private people. It could quite honestly just be a functional thing. MBTI is pretty interesting when it comes to situations like this.



Yeah, I do actually get where you're coming from. ESPECIALLY when I run into people and have conversations like this:
Person A: "Yeah, my father was really abusive..."
Me: "That sucks, I had an abusive childhood too so I know where you're coming from :C
Person A: "I know, it's like...he didn't always have to be so critical of me. I have feelings too!"
Me: "Wait...what?"

But I will say, OP did mention that his mother was physically abusive as well.
Oh, he mentioned physical abuse?? I somehow missed that.
Total change of mind. That's not alright.


And, yes, it's frustrating when people take on this "abused child" image as their own over minor grievances. No parent is perfect and every parent is going to give their kid stuff to mull over in therapy but abuse is so heightened and ugly. I don't think certain people fully understand it, but, on the other side of things, I'm sort of glad for them that they don't have to know.
I know people who have actually often remarked that they wished their parents were critical of them because, to them, that would mean they cared :,(

I suppose the reason OP's story did not immediately strike me as abuse is because I'm more accustomed to the negligent abuse, you know?

I'm just scared I'll grow into the abuser roll, honestly :/
 

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Oh, he mentioned physical abuse?? I somehow missed that.
Total change of mind. That's not alright.
I almost missed it to, it wasn't a part of the first post.

And, yes, it's frustrating when people take on this "abused child" image as their own over minor grievances. No parent is perfect and every parent is going to give their kid stuff to mull over in therapy but abuse is so heightened and ugly. I don't think certain people fully understand it, but, on the other side of things, I'm sort of glad for them that they don't have to know.
I completely relate to this.

I know people who have actually often remarked that they wished their parents were critical of them because, to them, that would mean they cared :,(

I suppose the reason OP's story did not immediately strike me as abuse is because I'm more accustomed to the negligent abuse, you know?
I can understand that, negligence can even be pretty deadly at times.
From that pov a person would naturally feel like the grass is greener on the other side, because if their parents bothered to lecture them it at least meant that their existence was of importance to someone. No one likes to feel unimportant or overlooked. Especially if it gets to the point of malnourishment on top of the emotional issues that arise from that sort of prolonged treatment.

I'm just scared I'll grow into the abuser roll, honestly :/
If you're scared of it happening then I think that's a pretty good sign that you'll do everything in your power to not be that way. I know that's one of my main goals in parenting (which I get to start doing in about 4 months) is to not be anything like my parents or family was. Granted so long as I feed my kid and don't beat them then I've already surpassed my family but...I do have higher aims then that XD
 
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