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Discussion Starter #1
Is it ever okay to stay in one? Are there ever exceptions?

Lol. I mean, we're all broken people, and sometimes I wonder if people ever get better if you just up and leave them while they are trying to work on themselves. There are limits and levels, I'm sure, but some people are working through a greater amount of stuff that others, and isn't loyalty and commitment to walk through it with them an important part of their healing?

If someone screams at you and saying something abusive ONE TIME, does that mean that they should be out of your life forever? What if they have insecurity issues and everyone else has abandoned them in their life? What if consistent love regardless of actions could triumph? Yeah, I know, we're not God. But.

My friend had her head literally bashed into the wall, and now she is back together with her hubs. They are going to counseling. I was floored by this... but, she said that if she didn't love him, no one would. I don't know. Seems strange to me, but.

It seems like so many people are self-focused and less giving of themselves these days. Like, actual sacrifice.

Just thinking.
 
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Nope, if someone can treat you like that then you become someone they can treat like that and get a away with it, so they have less reason to resist treating you like that. With your friend I don't agree with her statement, not even a little, no one is going to love him if he keeps bashing people's heads in, how about that, stop that then he might get some love. I'm not judging your friend here I'm just saying how I see that situation. I don't actually know those people. I just don't agree that you get to be abusive and eat your cake too.
 

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Is it ever okay to stay in one? Are there ever exceptions?

Lol. I mean, we're all broken people, and sometimes I wonder if people ever get better if you just up and leave them while they are trying to work on themselves. There are limits and levels, I'm sure, but some people are working through a greater amount of stuff that others, and isn't loyalty and commitment to walk through it with them an important part of their healing?

If someone screams at you and saying something abusive ONE TIME, does that mean that they should be out of your life forever? What if they have insecurity issues and everyone else has abandoned them in their life? What if consistent love regardless of actions could triumph? Yeah, I know, we're not God. But.

My friend had her head literally bashed into the wall, and now she is back together with her hubs. They are going to counseling. I was floored by this... but, she said that if she didn't love him, no one would. I don't know. Seems strange to me, but.

It seems like so many people are self-focused and less giving of themselves these days. Like, actual sacrifice.

Just thinking.
If the abuser is trying to change and putting in SERIOUS effort (understands his/her problem, therapist, communication training, a whole bunch of stuff), then there's room for an exception. I don't mean "going through the motions," I mean serious effort. Although, that's 1% of the cases.

Sometimes, you fall in love and the person's abusive and they don't even realize it. That's just how they were taught to love by their parents. Sometimes, you tell them, and they want to not be that person. Then, you need some distance as the person works it out, and there's a learning process.

Then again, I think the answer is almost ALWAYS "GET AWAY." But, there's exceptions. Especially, if there's children involved.
 

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This is a very complex issue.
It's easy to say yes, you should leave but the reality is not so simple.

After being in an abusive realtionship myself, I can understand why women don't leave. Abuse escalates and rarely starts out with hitting. You rationalize, excuse and blame yourself for the behavior. You remember how they weren't always like this. You're also gaslighted into thinking the abuse is your fault or not as bad as you think.
If I hadn't acted this way......
He's just having a bad day so I shouldn't have......
I smiled at that other guy so I deserved.........
etc

I finally got to the point where I couldn't rationalize the behavior anymore, so I left. It was less about trying to be giving and change the person, and more about trying to save my own life. I don't consider that self-focused or less giving. What they don't tell you is leaving will often exacerbate the abuse, because the abuser is losing control over you. (I think I saw a stat that said 75 percent of abused women who are murdered are murdered AFTER they try to leave).
I was also a lot younger and not as confident as I am now, so I think I put up with shit older me would have shut down.

I'm not really sure what to think about your friend's situation. If there are children involved, that adds another complicated layer. If this is a one time thing, maybe she thinks he can over come it and I hope for her sake she can. Hopefully the effort he's putting in is sincere.
I can't imagine him ever doing it, but if my husband ever hit me, we'd be done. And not because I don't love him, but because I wouldn't be able to trust him not to do it again.
 

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@HellenaHellspawn -

They had kids AFTER the abuse. I don't really know what is going on now. She only disclosed the abuse to me after the relationship had deteriorated - they got back together, and now, they are going to counseling. He sounds like a real piece of work to me - skittish, but it seems like he definitely is making SOME effort to be better - just not very quickly. I wonder sometimes if he'd be able to get better quicker if they weren't together.

I know he was abused himself as a child, so it is sort of heartbreaking. She is the only consistent loving person in his life, although she is working to expand that group.

It is crazy when you see someone that you think is being deceived or rationalizing, like you said, but as the friend, you can't really do much. Kind of stinks. In this situation, I do not feel I can say, "Get away from him" when they are going to counseling and have kids. I did tell her that maybe she is not the one to help him.
 

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@HellenaHellspawn -

They had kids AFTER the abuse. I don't really know what is going on now. She only disclosed the abuse to me after the relationship had deteriorated - they got back together, and now, they are going to counseling. He sounds like a real piece of work to me - skittish, but it seems like he definitely is making SOME effort to be better - just not very quickly. I wonder sometimes if he'd be able to get better quicker if they weren't together.

I know he was abused himself as a child, so it is sort of heartbreaking. She is the only consistent loving person in his life, although she is working to expand that group.

It is crazy when you see someone that you think is being deceived or rationalizing, like you said, but as the friend, you can't really do much. Kind of stinks. In this situation, I do not feel I can say, "Get away from him" when they are going to counseling and have kids. I did tell her that maybe she is not the one to help him.
Often, individuals abused by their parents grow to think that's what love is. They believe love comes with abuse, and it's just there. He needs to unlearn that programming. He'll probably learn a lot about himself in the process.

Here's the book for this one: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Love-Want-20th-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B000V770GY
 

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Imo your friend is in a very dangerous situation--I hope she'll be okay.

But I don't really think of moral judgments when I think of people in abusive relationships. Most people don't really consciously choose to be in an abusive relationship.

A lot of times, the relationship starts out wonderfully and the person doesn't really understand abuse dynamics, or know how to avoid them. They may have suffered trauma in the past.

The other thing with abusive relationships, is that a pattern begins to form, and an imbalance of power within the relationship. It's usually not fast enough to be noticeable. There is some old saying like 'you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water and he jumps out, but if you slowly heat the water from cold to hot with the frog in it then he gets boiled.' Idk if it's true about frogs, but there are definitely a lot of weird dynamics within abusive relationships that are at play.

I don't really even want to get into all of it--you can look up stockholm syndrome for other examples of how people can be conditioned to attract to the source of danger when under extreme stress.

My advice to anyone in an abusive relationship is to have an emergency plan--if you have to run quickly, who will you call etc. If you are trapped in the house, how will you contact someone to help you.

And then, to secretly contact someone to help with abuse--whether a support group or a counselor.

The scary thing with abuse is that many of the most violent attacks happen when the abuser knows that the person is leaving or has left. So while you'd like to think that it makes you safer to acknowledge abuse and to either stand up to it, or to leave, it can actually end up in a very severe escalation when an abuser knows, which has taken many people's lives.

So lie and be sneaky, even if you generally don't believe in that. Get help. Try not to isolate. And remember your happiness and wellbeing are valuable and you can heal and be happy.

Ultimately though--yes, it can be a service to an abusive person to leave. That way they have to face the consequences of their actions and hopefully be compelled to seek help. Only the abusers can choose to help themselves and it is their responsibility.
 

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@HellenaHellspawn -

They had kids AFTER the abuse. I don't really know what is going on now. She only disclosed the abuse to me after the relationship had deteriorated - they got back together, and now, they are going to counseling. He sounds like a real piece of work to me - skittish, but it seems like he definitely is making SOME effort to be better - just not very quickly. I wonder sometimes if he'd be able to get better quicker if they weren't together.

I know he was abused himself as a child, so it is sort of heartbreaking. She is the only consistent loving person in his life, although she is working to expand that group.

It is crazy when you see someone that you think is being deceived or rationalizing, like you said, but as the friend, you can't really do much. Kind of stinks. In this situation, I do not feel I can say, "Get away from him" when they are going to counseling and have kids. I did tell her that maybe she is not the one to help him.
He has to help himself. He's the only one who can choose to change.

It is good he's in counseling--counselors are also mandated reporters, so if anyone describes abuse that will harm the child or plans of murder, then the counselor is another person to know.

Unfortunately, the majority of abusers do not stop.

But still--it's something. Absolutely your friend isn't responsible for helping him--he's responsible for not abusing, period.

And also, tbh, you are actually doing a service to her as you are her friend and in contact with her. A lot of abuse victims end up losing touch with and isolating themselves from friends and family. Generally that is part of abuse dynamic, but it can also be from shame and not wanting to saddle anyone else with one's own burdens. So just the fact that she still has friends who know her and about her difficult situation is really good. That way, she has access to alternate perspectives than the one that the abuser is likely trying to sell her (which might be part of her idea of 'needing to help' him--along with her probably being a generally caring person).

It's really not easy--and it's def. not when people are married with children. You are doing great by just being her friend, caring about her, and trying to support her and allow her to share and explore her own perspective. But I can imagine that it probably isn't that easy for you as a friend to see her stay in that situation.
 

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I now realize, I didn't account for serious abuse. In my mind, I was imagining yelling and perhaps being pushed gently... If there's any serious abuse; you just get out.
 

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Man fuck that person, no matter how broken, it ain't worth it.
 
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