[WildWinds]

I'm an ENTP with an INFJ (been together 9 months, friends a year before that) and had read when I first got involved in this relationship that one of the biggest issues with an ENTP/INFJ pairing is that the ENTP may not feel accepted. This is somewhat turning out to be true and I just want some input from other INFJ's.

My INFJ is quite analytical, he has reasons for everything he does pretty much, idk if thats typical for an INFJ or not. Meanwhile, I'm 100% P and he just can't understand that I don't need a reason or point for what I want or do. Just as an example, we were going to make desert and we had stuff for cookies and stuff for pie. In his mind, it was either cookies OR pie. He asked what I wanted and I said lets make both. He couldn't make sense of why I'd want both and really there's nothing to make sense of, there is no point. I just wanted cookies with my pie. But he was combative about it and argued with logic (its too much sugar, we can make the cookies tomorrow so we have something different for desert/a snack) and I have really no comeback except I WANT COOKIES WITH MY PIE!

He always lets me have whatever I want in the end, but it drives me up the wall. It just seems like he makes a big deal out of things that are so petty, and he knows that its petty and unimportant, but he has to argue and be combative anyway. I get tired of sticking up for myself and arguing my pointless actions, it'd be nice if he could just accept that I do random things or want random things for no reason and let me without having to give me a hard time. And if I give up and say nevermind or just forget it and tell him to do what he wants, he gets a bit irritated.

Anyway, I'm thick skinned so I'm not emotionally hurt by this or anything, but it does drive me crazy. Sometimes I wonder why he even wants me when he can find a girl who thinks more like him or who is more passive and will go along with what he thinks is appropriate.

Can anybody give me some insight about whats going on in the INTJ mind when this happens or what I can say/do to get him to kinda chill out a bit?

 

[ertertwert]

INFJ's usually have a reason for everything they do, yes. But he shouldn't be so combative. INFJ's pay more attention to how something is said rather than what is said most of the time. Perhaps you are overly demanding in how you ask? Perhaps not. Honestly though, he just sounds unhappy with the relationship but as I have no knowledge of this, don't go running into left field with it...

 

[thegirlcandance]

Arguemental over petty things? Analytical reasoning? Are you sure he's not INTJ instead?

I know if it were me I wouldn't start conflict over some petty little thing. I let people do what they want for the most part unless they are trying to push me or be arguemental with me.

The only time I could see myself acting that way, honestly, is if I'm just really annoyed and unhappy with the person, so my bad nit-picky side comes out a bit.

 

[WildWinds]

Erterwert, yeah, I don't know. I just have trouble telling with him sometimes. Different "love languages" or something, idk. We met online and have been together quite a bit in person, over a month straight just recently. But we had 6 months where we didn't see each other. I couldn't even tell if he cared about me for a while there...That did bring about a lot of emotional pain and still does. Its hard sometimes because I often feel that he just doesn't feel the same way about me that I feel about him.

He could be INTJ. I've often thought that to myself. But he's read the descriptions and everything and he believes that he's INFJ for sure. I can see both really, I'm personally convinced that he's nearly 50/50 on F/T. He's combative like that with his family as well.

 

[TheCountess]

I know this is probably not the answer you want to hear but, I know for myself, when my nit-picky side comes out like that I'm not a happy camper with the relationship at hand. It also tends to mean that I feel that my needs are being entirely ignored.

Try talking to him about it, and whatever you do, keep it about him. Make an honest and true effort to understand his feelings without your own getting in the way. He's going to need to feel like he can speak his mind without going into a mine field. Keep things calm and civil and understanding.

 

[Blueguardian]

I'm not INFJ, but I thought I would raise the question if you considered his Enneagram type as well. I would imagine a INFJ type 8 would be quite different from a type 9 or 4.

 

[WildWinds]

I'll try again then.

If there's something wrong, he just won't tell me or is in self denial. I've tried so many times when it seemed like he was being distant with me, asking him honestly if he's happy, if he is hurt by something I've done or said, if the relationship is what he wants, what can I do to make him happier...I just don't get it.

 

[ertertwert]

I'm definitely an INFJ but I test up as INTJ so maybe we are similar. I tend to think logically and rationally, but when heated give in to my feelings too much. But I always know where someone is coming from. I don't think an INTJ could understand other people's emotions and feelings so well.

 

[TheCountess]

"Are you happy?" "Are you hurt by something I've done?" "Is the relationship what you want?" "What can I do to make you happier?"

As an INFJ, he is not going to respond well to any of those questions because that is asking for direct conflict, something we avoid! We absolutely hate hurting other people's feelings. If he answered the question "are you happy?" with an honest "no" he'd hurt you, feel like he had to comfort you, then feel resentful because suddenly what was supposed to be about him is all about you.

And about the pie and cookies. He didn't want to make both that night. He didn't want to tell you so, so he went about it trying to ask why you'd want both and try to reason you out of it so that you guys wouldn't make both. It's stupid I know, why not just say it outright? Because that would cause conflict. The gentler path was just to reason you out of it and not involve feelings in it. But you insisted, and you wanted both damn it! In doing that you made him feel like his thoughts on the matter were totally unimportant. Which in this case, his thoughts were actually his feelings.

If you want him to respond better, ask indirect questions that isn't going to throw him into the minefield. Ask him his opinions on relationships in general, get him to talk about somebody else's relationship that is perhaps similar to yours. "My friend Joe seems really upset about what Mindy said. What do you think would make him upset?" He's going to feel more than comfortable talking about a similar situation that isn't his situation and if you pay attention he's telling you exactly how he feels inadvertantly. And even if he does catch on to what you're doing, he'd still feel safer talking about it in a more non-direct way.

If you still would rather be direct, please, please turn off the caps. Give him lots of space and breathing room and don't step all over his toes. He'll respond if he feels it is safe to do so. Keep the topic on him and his feelings. Don't even say "I" anything. No "What can *I* do to make this better?" that turns it back to you. Don't. Say instead, "what would you like to happen instead? How would the ideal situation play out?"

 

[WildWinds]

I'm definitely an INFJ but I test up as INTJ so maybe we are similar. I tend to think logically and rationally, but when heated give in to my feelings too much. But I always know where someone is coming from. I don't think an INTJ could understand other people's emotions and feelings so well.

Yeah, I don't think so either. As an NT myself, even I have issues with it sometimes. I have seen his more emotional side when he gives into his feelings and know of a few instances where he is clearly using his heart over his head (much to my horror LOL), so thats the main reason that I think he is close to being 50/50 on F/T, but leans slightly towards F. If I had to guess a percent, it'd be around 60.

BlueGuardian, no, I haven't considered enneagram. Thats a good idea, thanks =) It may or may not help the issue at hand, but it'll give me something to do XD

 

[WildWinds]

"Are you happy?" "Are you hurt by something I've done?" "Is the relationship what you want?" "What can I do to make you happier?"

As an INFJ, he is not going to respond well to any of those questions because that is asking for direct conflict, something we avoid! We absolutely hate hurting other people's feelings. If he answered the question "are you happy?" with an honest "no" he'd hurt you, feel like he had to comfort you, then feel resentful because suddenly what was supposed to be about him is all about you.

And about the pie and cookies. He didn't want to make both that night. He didn't want to tell you so, so he went about it trying to ask why you'd want both and try to reason you out of it so that you guys wouldn't make both. It's stupid I know, why not just say it outright? Because that would cause conflict. The gentler path was just to reason you out of it and not involve feelings in it. But you insisted, and you wanted both damn it! In doing that you made him feel like his thoughts on the matter were totally unimportant. Which in this case, his thoughts were actually his feelings.

If you want him to respond better, ask indirect questions that isn't going to throw him into the minefield. Ask him his opinions on relationships in general, get him to talk about somebody else's relationship that is perhaps similar to yours. "My friend Joe seems really upset about what Mindy said. What do you think would make him upset?" He's going to feel more than comfortable talking about a similar situation that isn't his situation and if you pay attention he's telling you exactly how he feels inadvertantly. And even if he does catch on to what you're doing, he'd still feel safer talking about it in a more non-direct way.

If you still would rather be direct, please, please turn off the caps. Give him lots of space and breathing room and don't step all over his toes. He'll respond if he feels it is safe to do so. Keep the topic on him and his feelings. Don't even say "I" anything. No "What can *I* do to make this better?" that turns it back to you. Don't. Say instead, "what would you like to happen instead? How would the ideal situation play out?"

Thank you, this was really helpful.

It'd be nice if he was more blunt with me if thats the case. I can handle that a lot better than I can handle hints and trying to interpret such behavior as saying something deeper than what it is :\ I wouldn't have been offended at all if he just asserted himself about what he wanted with the cookies...Trying to logic me out of a decision that wasn't logic based just gets me me defensive and irritated. Of course, I guess he sorta did by asking if I wanted one OR the other and I came up with a novel idea, I'm just not really programmed to pay attention to such subtlety. I'm an ENTP and novel ideas are my specialty, I can't really help but to change the rules.

Maybe you can give some insight on another thing and give suggestions on how to handle it...Another thing that happens is that I'll ask if he wants to do something or throw out a bunch of options of things that we could do or ask it yes or no style and he'll just tell me "whatever you want". Ok. I'm generally neutral on most things, if I ask that, its because I want to know if he has a preference and if so, we'll do it his way because I'm not bothered regardless of what the decision is. If I KNOW what he wants from some previous hints that I did pick up on, then I'll purposely choose that. But a lot of times I have no clue or I missed it somewhere, I'll choose randomly because I have no preference, and then he'll complain about my decision (or use logic to argue why we shouldn't...I realize what he was doing now, but that doesn't tell me what option he'd prefer). I'll go back on it (not being argumentative or irritated or anything, sincerely) and say "Well we don't have to do that, we can do *insert another possiility* instead" and he'll say no no its fine, we'll do the first option. I can tell he's clearly irritated, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. I can't read minds, but I'd gladly do what he wants to do if only he'd tell me what that is.

How can I deal with that? How can I figure out what HE wants or get him to make the decision himself without creating an issue out of it?

 

[waterviolet]

INFJs have a plan. When our plan is set...it is sometimes difficult to let it go. We thrive off of lists and having structure in our lives. If I buy an ingredient for a dish I plan on making and the ingredient get used elsewhere it throws the plan off. Yes, I know I can go buy more of that ingredient but it wasn't in the plan for me to have to go back to the store in order to complete the dish.

I think INFJs have to learn to let go, to give up the plan or in your boyfriend's case - give in. I think what's important long term is that you both learn to give a little. If at times he doesn't want to make BOTH cookies and pie...settle for just pie. As long as each person feels as if they are giving in freely and receiving the same in return I think you two will do just fine.

 

[foxglove]

Um I'm definitely an infj and from what I've read (sorry I sort of skimmed all of it), he genuinely thinks he doesn't care which option you choose, but he definitely has a preference, he just doesn't want to believe it. As infj's we have high expectations from our partners and sort of expect you to get the right answer. This is a huge problem for us sometimes, we almost set ourselves up to be the one who ends up with the short stick. It might bother you, but if he's an infj, he shouldn't really care about it a few minutes later. I think the best way to bring it up with him is to express to him that what he does sometimes (either the pie/cookie thing or being indecisive) really bothers you. If he loves you, he'll naturally want to please you. On the other hand, you could accept this about him as well. Love doesn't distinguish between an infj or an estp.

Though I've never been in a "real" relationship before.

 

[CuritadeRana]

There is so much more going on than cookies and pie obviously because even me being a type 1 would have been okay with both :laughing:Hmmm and when I get nit picky which I am not in general, mostly because I can't stand when people are nit picky with me,....it usually means there is some internal conflict going on that may not even be directly related to your relationship. Personally I would get him in the most relaxed mood possible where he feels emotionally safe and intimate and then call him on his behavior as of late. "Hon I noticed the other day we almost had an arguement over pie and cookies....that's not like us, is there something bothering you that you would like to talk about? You may not want to talk about it now but I want you to know I am here for you when you decide you are ready because it is important for our relationship and I want to be close to you. :happy: The way you were approaching him before makes it sound like your relationship is in jeapordy and it's his fault and he most likely feels guilty and at a loss as to what to do. That indecisiveness and irritation sounds like he might be going through a withdrawal/depressive streak. It is so easy to crawl into a tortoise shell, but when you are in a realationship that is not healthy or possible. When you are a couple you fight battles no matter how big or small, together. The only other thought that came to mind is when you both come back home do you all have some down time before you interact with each other? INFJ/INTJ need some personal space within a relationship. I know when I come home from work I need at least 15 minutes to just decompress which my "roommate" doesn't always respect and hense gets snapped at on more than one occassion. It is not anything that she did or said but I am just needing to shake off some of the emotional overload I have had placed on me during my day to day interactions with the community. Some things to think about...hope there was something of value here.

 

[WildWinds]

Um I'm definitely an infj and from what I've read (sorry I sort of skimmed all of it), he genuinely thinks he doesn't care which option you choose, but he definitely has a preference, he just doesn't want to believe it. As infj's we have high expectations from our partners and sort of expect you to get the right answer. This is a huge problem for us sometimes, we almost set ourselves up to be the one who ends up with the short stick. It might bother you, but if he's an infj, he shouldn't really care about it a few minutes later. I think the best way to bring it up with him is to express to him that what he does sometimes (either the pie/cookie thing or being indecisive) really bothers you. If he loves you, he'll naturally want to please you. On the other hand, you could accept this about him as well. Love doesn't distinguish between an infj or an estp.

Though I've never been in a "real" relationship before.

INFJs have a plan. When our plan is set...it is sometimes difficult to let it go. We thrive off of lists and having structure in our lives. If I buy an ingredient for a dish I plan on making and the ingredient get used elsewhere it throws the plan off. Yes, I know I can go buy more of that ingredient but it wasn't in the plan for me to have to go back to the store in order to complete the dish.

I think INFJs have to learn to let go, to give up the plan or in your boyfriend's case - give in. I think what's important long term is that you both learn to give a little. If at times he doesn't want to make BOTH cookies and pie...settle for just pie. As long as each person feels as if they are giving in freely and receiving the same in return I think you two will do just fine.

I can definitely see that with him. We're quite opposite in that regard...I'm extremely flexible and laid back. Being Ne dominant, its hard because I already live in a world full of people that shoot down and trample on my ideas and hypotheses, I really have trouble handling it from the people I love, whether they mean to or not.

The cookie thing was just a small example of it. It just seemed like such a petty, unimportant issue to become so combative over. Of course, this is coming from a 100% P who does things with absolutely no structure. I mean, I can understand being miffed if something doesn't go according to plan, but even with something like this? Maybe I'm being insensitive, I don't know. I know him well enough to know that he WILL stand up for himself if its important and he won't allow himself to become walked on or used as a doormat. So clearly he didn't see this as important. But I don't know if he was just being combative because he can't make sense of the way I think and that frustrates him, or if The Countess is right and he didn't want to make both and tried to give me a reason to change my mind. He made a comment later that night, affectionately of course, that his new life goal was to understand the way my mind works and why I want cookies AND pie and toast with pancakes. But you are right, he didn't care about it a few minutes later. That episode ended with me telling him to just do whatever he wants and we went on to a new topic like it never happened and when we were ready to start cooking, he got out the cookies and put them in the oven without me saying a word. We had fun making the pie and he didn't seem bitter or resentful or upset or anything.