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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So, my ESFJ mom suggested this book to me. I've no idea why I ordered it up, honestly: Maybe because I'm desperate to figure out how to handle relationships, and glimpsed Steve Harvey once or twice looking over my mom's shoulder and thought he seemed pretty funny.

One word to sum up this thing? Useless. Absolutely useless.

Page five says (and I quote):

[Girls] will all grow up and reach for the same dream that most women do: The husband. Some kids. The house. A happy life.
"Happy life"? Great. The completely unimaginative, normal "happy" life suggested? Not. >.>

And page nineteen:

If you are her man, she will walk on water and through a mountain for you, too, no matter how you've acted out, no matter what crazy thing you've done, no matter the time or demand.
And then, on twenty-one...

Don't get it confused, now--I'm not saying that we're not capable of loving. I'm just saying that a man's love is different-- much more simply, direct, and probably a little harder to come by.
^This really sounds like how I love, honestly.

Really, the most unhelpful thing ever. I think I'll take my relationship book suggestions from NTs only after this, thanks. :laughing:

Anyone else read this thing?
 

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Some women think like that and I don't think there is much wrong with that, if their goal is their husbands and children, that's okay, now a mother suggesting her daughter to read that? Sounds like she doesn't fully accepts the way her child is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah, it's totally a book for ESFJs.

When I gave her the book back, I asked her why she recommended it - just out of curiosity more than anything. Evidently, she hoped I would read the chapters about "setting boundaries," "self-respect," and "withholding [what the book refers to as] 'the cookie'".

In other words, I'm pretty sure she recommended it because I slept with my last boyfriend. :laughing:
 

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It's sure it's a fine tome if one is living one's life by social expectations and gender norm standards. If you are indeed seeking the white picket fence with the SUV, 2.5 kids and a family dog with a good stable providor type of man who wants a good stable home making type of woman, it's likely to give you some insight into how that type of man thinks. I'm assuming the author of it, is one.

If however you fancy a life based more closely on personal values and non-standard norms then perhaps it's not the book for you. The title was enough to turn me off, as it implies there are defined behaviours for particular genders and I'm just not into that.
 

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Disclaimer: any lifestyle can be valuable and valid. My mom chose to be an ass-kicking stay at home parent thanks to their (mom and dad's) situation. Pointless careerism isn't better than pointless stay at home non-working-sort of parenting-ism.

This book seems like what I think finishing school was, before I go look it up after this post. Absurd.
 

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This book is about attracting a certain sort of man, though, the kind of man who divides women into pure wives or mothers above reproach, and women who put out. Do I really want to learn to win over a man like that? I mean really. In Tolstoy's Anna Karenina we are presented with every kind of love, including the debased aristocrat (Nikolai Levin, Constantines brother) who takes a prostitute as a common law wife, who esteemed and respected her patient kindness and demand others do the same. Levin in the beginning of the novel is an idealist, the sort who divides women differently yet much in the same as the common Madonna/Whore complex, but still treats his brothers wife kindly. It's actually the cheerful, mega Sensor, Stiva, the big cheater (Annas brother) who says hey liberalism is my nature, why not make provision for the "fallen woman" who gave herself to me, only seems fair? But the man who demands the woman in act like a lady, think like a man isn't Nikolai, Stiva, or even idealistic Constantine, but the most loathesome insecure sort of man, the man who must have woman as his moral "better" or a virgin to assuage his insecurity.

I say no. It's only an ESFJ book if your culture insists you pander to such a patriarchal stereotype.
 

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Yeah, it's totally a book for ESFJs.

When I gave her the book back, I asked her why she recommended it - just out of curiosity more than anything. Evidently, she hoped I would read the chapters about "setting boundaries," "self-respect," and "withholding [what the book refers to as] 'the cookie'".

In other words, I'm pretty sure she recommended it because I slept with my last boyfriend. :laughing:
Well I agree there is a common sense to setting boundaries. You really can't just throw yourself at Count Vronsky unless you're prepared to have a fling, as long as you understand that's all it is to him (bear with me, Anna Karenina is my guide to romantic relationships lol)...if you want a relationship, you can't hook up. It is irrational to do so. Never approach love with the intent to change someone. Not saying you should choose the false marriage of propriety over passion, but just know passion is often a passing thing, and if you seek something lasting it's important to seek a person similarly minded. You can't put lipstick on a pig and expect him to become your husband.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well I agree there is a common sense to setting boundaries. You really can't just throw yourself at Count Vronsky unless you're prepared to have a fling, as long as you understand that's all it is to him (bear with me, Anna Karenina is my guide to romantic relationships lol)...if you want a relationship, you can't hook up. It is irrational to do so. Never approach love with the intent to change someone. Not saying you should choose the false marriage of propriety over passion, but just know passion is often a passing thing, and if you seek something lasting it's important to seek a person similarly minded. You can't put lipstick on a pig and expect him to become your husband.
I'm eighteen. If I was looking for a husband right now, I'd be stunting any future personal growth/educational/success potential I might have.

Btw, I totally disagree with the "if you want a relationship, you can't hook up" thing - and I'm not irrational to do so. Why? Because I like sex, that's why, and if the guy isn't up to having sex prior to marriage (or any other grand list of stipulations), odds are I'll be immensely frustrated, think he's irrational, and break up with him. I don't go into love with the intent to change someone - which is why I don't withhold sex that we both want until marriage (or engagements, or anything else so substantial) to attempt to manipulate the poor guy into a corner he'd be unhappy in. My philosophy is that if the guy likes me enough, he won't stop caring about me the moment after we have sex - and if he does, he's not the kind of person I want to be dating, anyway.

Every relationship is different. It's not a one-size-fits-all: "Men think like this, women think like this, and you've got to do X in order to achieve Y" - which is basically the entire premise of this book. Maybe it's helpful for some types. Maybe even for most types. I couldn't wrap my mind around it, though.
 

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I'm eighteen. If I was looking for a husband right now, I'd be stunting any future personal growth/educational/success potential I might have.

Btw, I totally disagree with the "if you want a relationship, you can't hook up" thing - and I'm not irrational to do so. Why? Because I like sex, that's why, and if the guy isn't up to having sex prior to marriage (or any other grand list of stipulations), odds are I'll be immensely frustrated, think he's irrational, and break up with him. I don't go into love with the intent to change someone - which is why I don't withhold sex that we both want until marriage (or engagements, or anything else so substantial) to attempt to manipulate the poor guy into a corner he'd be unhappy in. My philosophy is that if the guy likes me enough, he won't stop caring about me the moment after we have sex - and if he does, he's not the kind of person I want to be dating, anyway.

Every relationship is different. It's not a one-size-fits-all: "Men think like this, women think like this, and you've got to do X in order to achieve Y" - which is basically the entire premise of this book. Maybe it's helpful for some types. Maybe even for most types. I couldn't wrap my mind around it, though.
Ok everything you said is fine. ..except, no, it is irrational to hook up. It just is. A lot of people want to argue that point in theory, but none of them seem to actually have lasting relationships.

I didn't say to not have sex with your boyfriend in a relationship. I said not to hook up. Because guys looking to hook up are usually just looking to hook up. When people tell you who they are, believe them. If you want a relationship you have to find a person who wants a relationship because relationships take effort and some people are more ready or suited to them than others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok everything you said is fine. ..except, no, it is irrational to hook up. It just is. A lot of people want to argue that point in theory, but none of them seem to actually have lasting relationships.

I didn't say to not have sex with your boyfriend in a relationship. I said not to hook up. Because guys looking to hook up are usually just looking to hook up. When people tell you who they are, believe them. If you want a relationship you have to find a person who wants a relationship because relationships take effort and some people are more ready or suited to them than others.
*didn't say anything about hooking up*
 

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So, my ESFJ mom suggested this book to me. I've no idea why I ordered it up, honestly: Maybe because I'm desperate to figure out how to handle relationships, and glimpsed Steve Harvey once or twice looking over my mom's shoulder and thought he seemed pretty funny.

One word to sum up this thing? Useless. Absolutely useless.

Page five says (and I quote):


"Happy life"? Great. The completely unimaginative, normal "happy" life suggested? Not. >.>

And page nineteen:



And then, on twenty-one...


^This really sounds like how I love, honestly.

Really, the most unhelpful thing ever. I think I'll take my relationship book suggestions from NTs only after this, thanks. :laughing:

Anyone else read this thing?
What an obscene and offensive book, judging from these quotes it belongs in the 1950s.
ESFJs tend to drive me absolutely nuts, my mother is also one.

Dating advice though? I have no idea people don't make any sense to me, I'm in the same boat you are! Someone needs to write one of these books for INTJs. 'A guidebook to human dating psychology and irrationality'
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
What an obscene and offensive book, judging from these quotes it belongs in the 1950s.
ESFJs tend to drive me absolutely nuts, my mother is also one.

Dating advice though? I have no idea people don't make any sense to me, I'm in the same boat you are! Someone needs to write one of these books for INTJs. 'A guidebook to human dating psychology and irrationality'
They definitely do! I'd settle for a simple one-page list of mistakes and their likely effects. Of course, that would reduce everyone's advice to a simple one-size-fits-all thing similar to what the author of this book attempted to do - and I'm beginning to think the honest truth is that absolutely nobody knows any universally applicable relationship advice. It's all just guesswork, walking out with blinders on and hoping you aren't smashed into an emotional trainwreck. That's what's the most irritating thing: It isn't something you can just do a bit of research on and be a pro at, because everything's different with every person.

But yeah, there's some very old-fashioned advice in this book. It offended me a little, but more than anything it was just so stupidly unhelpful. :laughing: My ESFJ's getting a little better with the criticism (I think that's a usual trait of ESFJs, right?), but she sometimes blindsides me with stuff like this. I'm honestly not sure whether to be irritated at her intrusion, or proud that she thinks my sex life is busy enough to warrant her being judgey about it (which it definitely isn't), lol.
 

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How about 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' by John Gray? Would it be better?
 

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So, my ESFJ mom suggested this book to me. I've no idea why I ordered it up, honestly: Maybe because I'm desperate to figure out how to handle relationships, and glimpsed Steve Harvey once or twice looking over my mom's shoulder and thought he seemed pretty funny.
One word to sum up this thing? Useless. Absolutely useless.
Page five says (and I quote):
"Happy life"? Great. The completely unimaginative, normal "happy" life suggested? Not. >.>
And page nineteen:
And then, on twenty-one...
^This really sounds like how I love, honestly.
Really, the most unhelpful thing ever. I think I'll take my relationship book suggestions from NTs only after this, thanks. :laughing:
Anyone else read this thing?
the ironic thing is that it tells you to "think like a man", then describes extremely un-assertive thinking patterns, a few of which border on Stockholm Syndrome. granted, I think a lot of 21st century women could improve their relationships via a few more "lady like" tendencies (because most men have a severe lack of feminine energy in their lives, and would greatly benefit from and appreciate someone who can give them a healthy dose of cuddles and pampering), but these quotes are just.....no
 

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*didn't say anything about hooking up*
Ok cool, because please understand I wasn't saying "don't have sex" (I would be an enormous hypocrite if I did!)...my references to not hooking up were my only point of agreement with the Act Like a Lady world view. ..because when it comes down to something like that, yes absolutely that can hinder longer term relationships from happening. I just see in our culture that some women especially make the mistake of trying to get a "player" or someone who they hooked up with into a relationship. I am not saying that it never happens, but it's highly unlikely, because people who are ready for relationships usually know they want a relationship.
 
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