[supeyrio]

i'm often told that i get very aggressive when i try to bring forth a point in a debate/argument/discussion. i do accept that i may be seen as aggressive, as i myself tend to think that i'm aggressive on several occasions, though i do not intentionally try to intimidate. i noticed that my "aggression" "takes over" due to couple of reasons:

* a topic that i am so well versed, i can't believe that i getting challenged, albeit a worse "challenger" which is the crux of my frustrations
* something that i am very passionate about
*proponent of counter argument:
-says something stupid/illogical/irrelevant
-brings up a counter point that we already have already thought through so thoroughly and hate ourselves so much because we have to explain the counter counter points that we have already worked out before in our heads.
-refuses logic, choosing to argue along the lines of belief/feelings


emotions experienced:
* ugh i cant believe i even have to explain this to you
* i'm so sure my stand will prevail because i already considered what you have said, what you saying, and what you are going to say
* why havent you realise that INTJ only opens their mouth to talk about something they truly know about
* i'm about 5 steps ahead of your argument.....

is this an INTJ experience?? :crying:

p.s. i also want to stress that i'm quite jovial in nature, and usually not serious under most circumstances.

 

[dagnytaggart]

Yep...what type is your opponent? I debate regularly with an ENFP who drives me up the WALL for all the reasons you mentioned.

 

[supeyrio]

Yep...what type is your opponent? I debate regularly with an ENFP who drives me up the WALL for all the reasons you mentioned.

hmm, they vary but in a very general sense, most people!

oh yes yes! ENFP OMG, my MUM's ENFP and she drives me crazy with her arguments!

e.g.
me " what is your proof? any statistics?"
mum "i'm sure that *yada yada yada*" blatantly ignoring my question, which implies she has no proof.
me: "i can show u proof that you are wrong"
mum "but i'm very sure that *yada yada yada*"
me: *bangs head on wall to declare end of conversation*

 

[Dynamic Chaos]

I frequently have this type of debate with my Grandparents. They both have extreme Sensing and Feeling, which drives me insane. My Granddad bases his arguments and makes large, erratic assumptions solely on personal experience, and considers this the end to all means. He even has his own biased, irrational, rehearsed speech which he recites every time if he has become confused with the direction of the argument. My Grandma considers something to be proven correct if it feels right to her, or if somebody has told her so in the past. :dry:

This is evidence that my personality cannot be judged appropriately by the opinion of my Grandparents when I am placed under these stressful and useless circumstances. They consider me 'moody and sensitive' for the exact reasons stated by supeyrio.

 

[DayDreamers]

No agression. I've been taugh that "she who shouts louds immediately loses".
But yes, my thinking does get irrational and sometimes i go off on tangents desperately
trying to sway the point until I'm right. Bad Habit.
But I always fall into the trap.
Then I try not to cry afterwards,
but the tears always catch up with me.

 

[jack london]

i love a good argument where i can show off the facts that i know but only for short bursts.

i can get really aggressive (weird) when a door to door salesman doesn't go away. it might be the protector in me but i don't have good "verbal" skills so i just kind of flip out on them. Oops. 99.9999 of the time i am the guy with the upbeat attitude and a smile on this face.

 

[Schadenfreude]

I loved debating with my INTJ dad when we don't agree on certain topics. The both of us get really aggressive, and he always wants to be right. I don't let go of the debate, I always want to see how far I can go at annoying him.

 

[supeyrio]

I loved debating with my INTJ dad when we don't agree on certain topics. The both of us get really aggressive, and he always wants to be right. I don't let go of the debate, I always want to see how far I can go at annoying him.

i think your dad doesn't want to always be right, but rather doesn't want to be wrong at any time! thats INTJ, and i'm sure it applies to you

 

[beth x]

I like debating. I'm not fond of having shouting matches. I'm not aggressive usually.

However, there was this one time (at band camp) when an INFP tried to convince me that alcoholism is similar to spina bifida in the idea that it is genetic.....well....enough said about that.

Normally I just discuss at a leisurely rate.

 

[dagnytaggart]

hmm, they vary but in a very general sense, most people!

oh yes yes! ENFP OMG, my MUM's ENFP and she drives me crazy with her arguments!

e.g.
me " what is your proof? any statistics?"
mum "i'm sure that *yada yada yada*" blatantly ignoring my question, which implies she has no proof.
me: "i can show u proof that you are wrong"
mum "but i'm very sure that *yada yada yada*"
me: *bangs head on wall to declare end of conversation*

Argh...the ENFP I debate with does this too. And not only that, he's prone to ad hominems (getting things personal; he's called me a "dictator", "satan", "ruthless", "iron fist", "sociopath" etc etc) I just ignore them (because after all, they're not relevant) and keep spoon-feeding him facts, proof and the logical analysis of them and how they lead to my conclusion (my argument).

Yet he can never actually refute my logic. Instead, he'll go for the name-calling and/or rattle off with a bunch of retarded nonsense that bears no relevance to the issue at hand, not even metaphorically. He out-trolls me. And that's sayiing something.

Or he'll say something more based on his personal habit/anecdote than logic (and his anecdotes are NEVER based on logic) such as, "I give away all MY savings to the poor, so everyone should!!1"

I'm not saying that ALL ENFPs do this...just a bunch that I encountered, and this guy's one of the worst. Is it an Ne-gone-wild thing?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Its important to turn the 'aggression' into bemusement; although then you get the 'you are too cocky' speech. Perhaps the reponse to that is 'you need to use your brain more'.

 

[sleeper]

Argh...the ENFP I debate with does this too. And not only that, he's prone to ad hominems (getting things personal; he's called me a "dictator", "satan", "ruthless", "iron fist", "sociopath" etc etc) I just ignore them (because after all, they're not relevant) and keep spoon-feeding him facts, proof and the logical analysis of them and how they lead to my conclusion (my argument).

Yet he can never actually refute my logic. Instead, he'll go for the name-calling and/or rattle off with a bunch of retarded nonsense that bears no relevance to the issue at hand, not even metaphorically. He out-trolls me. And that's sayiing something.

Or he'll say something more based on his personal habit/anecdote than logic (and his anecdotes are NEVER based on logic) such as, "I give away all MY savings to the poor, so everyone should!!1"

I'm not saying that ALL ENFPs do this...just a bunch that I encountered, and this guy's one of the worst. Is it an Ne-gone-wild thing?

Wow, that's miserable. It's not that surprising to me. I've noticed many younger ENFPs get very touchy when someone gets critical of... anything really and sometimes it can seem like younger Ts are being overly critical for its own sake. Anyway, many ENFPs seem slow to develop other functions other than their Ne that will benefit their relationships with others (not that it's specific to just them obviously). It looks like you two are hitting the T-F walls that run deep. I mean if you think about it, not many people see eye-to-eye in general and I can't think of anyone who changed their opinions in a heated argument. Pick your battles, if possible. It doesn't really seem worth it.

 

[Filo]

getting things personal; he's called me a "dictator", "satan", "ruthless", "iron fist", "sociopath" etc etc)

Why does he think kissing ass will help?

 

[dagnytaggart]

Wow, that's miserable. It's not that surprising to me. I've noticed many younger ENFPs get very touchy when someone gets critical of... anything really and sometimes it can seem like younger Ts are being overly critical for its own sake. Anyway, many ENFPs seem slow to develop other functions other than their Ne that will benefit their relationships with others (not that it's specific to just them obviously). It looks like you two are hitting the T-F walls that run deep. I mean if you think about it, not many people see eye-to-eye in general and I can't think of anyone who changed their opinions in a heated argument. Pick your battles, if possible. It doesn't really seem worth it.

Well, I'm 20 and this guy's 50.

But I kind of like heated arguments, debates are fun until you hit that wall you described...and then speaking for myself, I throw my hands up and say "Well there's no reasoning with his sentiment. Who can I bicker with next?" :wink:

Why does he thinks kissing ass will help?

rofl! ONLY an INTJ. :crazy:

 

[PseudoSenator]

My customary disposition is levelheaded. My reactions though can vary if I encounter incompetence, stupidity, or overflowing emotional nonsense--those reactions are usually dismissive and only aggressive if the other side initiates the hostility.

 

[tooboku]

It depends. When I really care about a person, I can be really mean. I say stuff that makes them cry. This isn't very useful as a lot of the people I care about have a really strong Fe dominance. The point is to get them to take my advice but usually when I give it, because of the aggresive tone, it is not accepted. These are the cases where saying "I told you so" has a strong bitter after taste.

However, with others, I'll say what I'm thinking as a suggestion and only mention it once; twice if it's a good idea. I do secretly hope they don't take it as I want all my good ideas for myself and love saying "I told you so".

 

[supeyrio]

It depends. When I really care about a person, I can be really mean. I say stuff that makes them cry. This isn't very useful as a lot of the people I care about have a really strong Fe dominance. The point is to get them to take my advice but usually when I give it, because of the aggresive tone, it is not accepted. These are the cases where saying "I told you so" has a strong bitter after taste.

However, with others, I'll say what I'm thinking as a suggestion and only mention it once; twice if it's a good idea. I do secretly hope they don't take it as I want all my good ideas for myself and love saying "I told you so".

Lol i see myself in you

 

[tooboku]

Lol i see myself in you

I'm sorry but I like girls.