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Discussion Starter #1

What do you guys think? I'm getting an INFx vibe from her. I could see her as an INFP - she seems Fi to me more then Fe. I think there could be a divide between N/S but she talks about herself being checked out a lot which I can't imagine an aux Se user doing. I definitely think she is introverted, she seems shy and seems to draw in on herself a lot when she is with one on one people. There is a lot of internalization in the two clips above. She isn't grasping to the other person like I would think an extrovert would, nor is she really trying too much to connect to the interviewer like an aux Fe user would.

Thoughts? I want to flex my typing skills. I initally thought ISFJ/INFJ but her self contained-ness and self admission of her being 'in her head' and making her 'inner artist' happy makes me think Fi and she doesn't strike me much as a sensor. Although ISFP's are said to be the most intuitive sensors out of all of them.

Some lyrics:

'Cause the love that you gave, that we made
Wasn't able to make it enough for you to be open wide, no
And every time you speak her name
Does she know how you told me you'd hold me
Until you died? 'til you die
But you're still alive.

I am the wisest woman you've ever met
I am the kindest soul with whom you've connected
I have the bravest heart that you've ever seen
And you've never met anyone who is
As positive as I am sometimes

Something so benign from me
Construed as cruelty
Such a difference between who I am and who you see
Conclusions you come to of me, routinely incorrect
I don't know who you're talking to with such fucking disrespect.

Would you forgive me, love
If I danced in your shower?
Would you forgive me, love
If I laid in your bed?
Would you forgive me, love
If I stay all afternoon?
 

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Confirmed ENTP

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I don't know what she is, but she is one of my favorite musicians. :)

Like me, she gets drunk from life...

Listen to "Hand in my Pocket."
 

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Confirmed ENTP

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She's an extrovert? Wow. Completely missed that. The thinking preference also kind of knocked me for a loop, she's extremely emotionally invested and very much about her relationships. That's one of the driving things in all of her music. Eh, learn something new every day.
 

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The extroversion doesn't seem like a surprise to me. I would have guessed ENFP though if I didn't really know.
 

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INFJ, SoCom, hands-on, physical intimacy, Energy being, Project Career Temp, Wisdom Growth Temp
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She's an extrovert? Wow. Completely missed that. The thinking preference also kind of knocked me for a loop, she's extremely emotionally invested and very much about her relationships. That's one of the driving things in all of her music. Eh, learn something new every day.
My husband is an INTJ and he's completely emotionally invested and very much about our marriage ;) You maybe reading into some of the stereotypes about T vs F.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
My husband is an INTJ and he's completely emotionally invested and very much about our marriage ;) You maybe reading into some of the stereotypes about T vs F.
Perhaps, I just didn't see a lot of Ti from her at first, although admittedly Ti is hard to see, as is Fi. I used her artistic expression to gauge how she was emotionally inside and I think that's where I got Fi from since I don't think she seems very Fe-esque.

Admittedly a lot of my typing was based off of her being an introvert because I certainty didn't see her as very extroverted. She's always been quite private and in general I think she has lower energy when she is engaging with people especially compared to a lot of other Extroverts I've seen. I'm friends with two ENTP's and three ENFP's and I don't think I've ever seen them as subdued and laid back as she is, although she could just be very shy. I totally thought she was a Fi type or an introverted Fe type off of first looks.
 

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Perhaps, I just didn't see a lot of Ti from her at first, although admittedly Ti is hard to see, as is Fi. I used her artistic expression to gauge how she was emotionally inside and I think that's where I got Fi from since I don't think she seems very Fe-esque.

Admittedly a lot of my typing was based off of her being an introvert because I certainty didn't see her as very extroverted. She's always been quite private and in general I think she has lower energy when she is engaging with people especially compared to a lot of other Extroverts I've seen. I'm friends with two ENTP's and three ENFP's and I don't think I've ever seen them as subdued and laid back as she is, although she could just be very shy. I totally thought she was a Fi type or an introverted Fe type off of first looks.
ENTP have Fe in their tertiary, they don't usually have much expression emotionally, maybe that is what you're not seeing. I'm very private by nature, i was one of the shyest kids right up to high school. If i compared my energy level with some of the ENFP here, i would believe i was an INFP, although high energy isn't an extroverted trait. Extroverts gain their energy from the external world, they don't have to be talking, engaging verbally directly with people to do that. Taking a walk alone on a busy street with lots of people is enough to gain energy. Sitting on a park bench watching/observing a crowd can leave me energized to the point i can get home and take a cleaning spree by storm. ENFP seem to drain like an introvert thou if they have too much external interaction , so maybe ENFP isn't the best example.

Of course we have no way to know for sure what type she is, i said ENTP because i saw it in a few places on different sites as confirmed. Is anything really confirmed through the net, not likely. Everything is stereotype related, sad by true.
 
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I see/feel xNTP from her very clearly. I think there is bias in songwriting in general when it is MBTI related. For some reason, songwriters are always classified as strong F users (mostly dom/aux Fi). I think this bias was completely fabricated to relate to the MBTI before critical thinking was involved and has been replayed over and over again until it became unbelievable for a songwriter to possibly be a thinking preference user in dom/aux function. Especially for female songwriters.
 

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The most interesting thing for me about Alanis is that I see a lot going on that can be attributed to a vast, dynamic range in her proficiency. By that, I mean that her enneagram type and her MBTI are quite an unusual combination. From my perspective, I can see the type 4 with a 5 wing, definitely, but for MBTI she strikes me as ENFJ.

I wish that I could explain this in a succinct way, but because I'm unable to, let me begin by saying I have an ENFJ friend and that's why the way Alanis talks, and the things she says, and the content (perspective taking) in her lyrics is so familiar to me.


 


Some lyrics:

'Cause the love that you gave, that we made
Wasn't able to make it enough for you to be open wide, no
And every time you speak her name
Does she know how you told me you'd hold me
Until you died? 'til you die
But you're still alive.
A young ENFJ with an inferior Ti flare up singing about a relationship not going the way that she wanted it to. Also, in tune with the reactivity of a type 4.

The vast majority of Jagged Little Pill is her breaking out of some imposed confines, culturally and due to the environment she was raised in. This is typical for an Fe-dom and even for an Fe-aux, it's practically a rite of passage. She mentions in the interview that to the people close to her who knew her well, the reaction was that FINALLY she was speaking out on her feelings about things. As a 4, her identity doesn't depend on the people around her, but because of Fe she is often finding the best compromise in order to mesh.

Dom or aux Fe types don't naturally overthrow anything that they've felt has been oppressing them, because the modus operandi is to deal with it, even if passive aggressively, in an adaptive or mal-adaptive way until the environment changes. There's a lot of push and pull, a major tug of war going on when Extraverted Feeling is involved because you juggle other people's expectations and values at a priority to your own in order to find some balance or "harmony" (oft thrown around word, but it just means respecting even the people you disagree with, being able to see their side, stepping outside of yourself a bit to acknowledge their truth in equal measure to your own, but also seeing many seemingly discordant truths and honoring them). I could understand that an enneagram type 4 with Fe toes this line constantly, but add in the 5 wing, and Alanis knows how to withdraw and collect her thoughts, assess her emotions, even be objective- something that she's exercised more and more as she has matured, and in her career.

I am the wisest woman you've ever met
I am the kindest soul with whom you've connected
I have the bravest heart that you've ever seen
And you've never met anyone who is
As positive as I am sometimes
She's referring to her former relationship with Ryan Reynolds, the "you" in those lyrics is Ryan, as she's mostly echoing his sentiments about her (and implying that it made her feel really good, but it's more so about Ryan and the manner in which he's a loving person). She's seeing him seeing her -not so much seeing herself, but getting a glimpse of who she is to him from his perspective- and she's seeing him accepting her, and seeing him still in the relationship with her despite that so much familiarity with what makes her who she is could drive other partners to end the relationship.

Note that she doesn't reject his view of her, doesn't admit to agreeing or disagreeing with Ryan's own view. She meshes it with her own insights into herself to form a kind of relationship collage of what she can see of herself, now, with his vantage point added. This is key to Extraverted Feeling. People who mention her facial expressions in trying to type may not realize that the 5 wing lends some stoicism to her behavior, and also the core type 4 wants to be itself while simultaneously not wanting to be rejected or abandoned. Put that into an Fe dom and she's going to be very careful and authentic with the message she sends through her body language and her choice of words.

Her songs, "Simple Together" and "Not As We" address feelings when the relationship ended, expectations of what it could be that won't ever be realized, acceptance that life has changed. She's approaching things in a Fe-Ni way. She had a vision, but it's not how things worked out. She has to retune that vision. My ENFJ friend does this. You'll hear Alanis in the interview mention archetypes- more evidence of Ni at work.

Note that she often hones in on connection, relationships, social units, and changes in perspective, but the whole time it's a rather dry acknowledgment that each person's frame of reference is and should be represented with as little bias as possible (the type 5-ness looking at things in a detached way or as being factual, analyzing them from outside of the rawness of feeling them, and dictating it.).

She mentions a tendency toward transparency during the interview, telling things as they were. It's a willingness to delve into Ti when she writes the lyrics of a song entirely by herself, not so much about wrong or right, but just about what happened being fairly represented. Dom Fe often tones down personal feeling simply to get along, and 5-ness will detach it even more, but the core type 4 brings the need to assert identity in some artistic way of self-expression. She also mentions serving quite a lot, being of service. This is her connection to type 2.

Something so benign from me
Construed as cruelty
Such a difference between who I am and who you see
Conclusions you come to of me, routinely incorrect
I don't know who you're talking to with such fucking disrespect.
Notice that she's detached, sees both sides of a matter, steps to the side but then you see the flare up "with such fucking disrespect". Fe doms do this, keeping a lid on personalizing and at the same time depersonalizing. They know what you're feeling, but they also know to keep a balance on how exactly people expect an ENFJ to be responsible for someone else's feelings when it involves judgment (misinterpretation) of the Fe dom. How Functions Work: Inferior Ti (ESFJ/ENFJ) - Cognitive Function Theory

My ENFJ friend recently shared an account of what it's been like for her to make peace with a person who died who had thought ill of her, because from her perspective his judgment of her wasn't aligned at all with who she knows herself to be. Within herself she accepted his feelings, because that's what Fe respectfully does (and consolidating the confusion of the disparity is no picnic), but simultaneously knows them to be wrong. Fe dom has a terrible time being self-critical. They naturally hold everyone's opinions in the balance and do their best to not offend, so when someone lashes out at them it's never something the Fe dom feels they deserve, or is ready to face (or even that they SHOULD face it because the other person's reaction feels misplaced). It's also perfectly natural for a type 4 to be puzzled (and annoyed) that their own identity is being challenged by someone who leapt to conclusions and tried to dictate it to the type 4, but the key words coming out of the blue from Fe are: "such fucking disrespect".

Would you forgive me, love
If I danced in your shower?
Would you forgive me, love
If I laid in your bed?
Would you forgive me, love
If I stay all afternoon?
She's singing about going to a lover's home when he's not there, and [from the narrator's perspective, because I don't know if it's autobiographical] feeling giddy about it, but then realizing that he's been cheating when the narrator of the song finds the evidence. How much more polite can you be? Asking your cheating lover if he would forgive you? The song is permeated with a personal sense of guilt from beginning to end that is painful. Starkly different from her song "You Oughtta Know" but nonetheless communicating a sense of deep hurt, betrayal, loss of innocence. Most people heard Y.O.K. and based their opinion of Alanis on it, but haven't heard "Your House" (a hidden track at the end of the album Jagged Little Pill). It's fascinating that she gives you insight into her rage early on in the album, but the tenderest hurt with the most vulnerability she leaves for the end. There's no logic or rationalizing, not even any music. Just her bare voice. Baring it all.

Good luck finding a 'T' driven person as organically consumed with relations to others and the impact of those relationships upon her and others as Alanis Morissette; by this I'm saying that she's not dom nor aux Ti and not dom nor aux Te. Her rationalizations come from the motivation of her 5 wing but are anchored in the effects that her existence has upon people. be they good or bad.
 

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The most interesting thing for me about Alanis is that I see a lot going on that can be attributed to a vast, dynamic range in her proficiency. By that, I mean that her enneagram type and her MBTI are quite an unusual combination. From my perspective, I can see the type 4 with a 5 wing, definitely, but for MBTI she strikes me as ENFJ.

I wish that I could explain this in a succinct way, but because I'm unable to, let me begin by saying I have an ENFJ friend and that's why the way Alanis talks, and the things she says, and the content (perspective taking) in her lyrics is so familiar to me.
Since last night, some ideas have compelled me to consider Alanis Morissette as an ENFJ who is enneagram type 9, and it's been very interesting to think about to say the least.
 
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