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I'm a bit new to MBTI, so maybe this is a really silly question, but I wonder: Since ENFJs are really altruistic and seek harmony above all, why are we so manipulative? Shouldn't this collide with our compassion for other human beings?
 

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1.) One ENFJ =/= ENFJ. Though we have the same cognitive functions we grow up in different environments.

2.) Define harmony. Harmony for you does not equal harmony for everybody. What are you saying harmony is?

3.) Define Manipulation. Manipulation is not necessarily "bad" thing. Good "Leaders" are manipulating their followers to do their bidding while allowing them to grow in their strength areas. What is manipulation to you?

Dominant Extroverted Feeling (Fe) want harmony in their immediate area so...manipulation to keep harmony around you makes sense. If you have one friend who dislikes another friend why would you invite them both at the same time? If you know your friend is on a diet why invite them to a pizza and movie night?

You are right Fe leads seeks harmony SPECIFICALLY for PEOPLE which takes dabbles of manipulation. The manipulation you are mentioning is likely a stereotype associated with ENFJs. You have given a specific case in mind showing an ENFJ manipulating in a negative manner then yes I could could an answer for that case. However you are kinda using a general stereotype, oversimplified stereotype at that, to describe an entire MBTI type. We are people and we have different backgrounds, we are raised in different ways and act in different manners. Compassion for people is not shown in a "universal" method. Yadda Yadda I think you see where I am going.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
1.) One ENFJ =/= ENFJ. Though we have the same cognitive functions we grow up in different environments.

2.) Define harmony. Harmony for you does not equal harmony for everybody. What are you saying harmony is?

3.) Define Manipulation. Manipulation is not necessarily "bad" thing. Good "Leaders" are manipulating their followers to do their bidding while allowing them to grow in their strength areas. What is manipulation to you?

Dominant Extroverted Feeling (Fe) want harmony in their immediate area so...manipulation to keep harmony around you makes sense. If you have one friend who dislikes another friend why would you invite them both at the same time? If you know your friend is on a diet why invite them to a pizza and movie night?

You are right Fe leads seeks harmony SPECIFICALLY for PEOPLE which takes dabbles of manipulation. The manipulation you are mentioning is likely a stereotype associated with ENFJs. You have given a specific case in mind showing an ENFJ manipulating in a negative manner then yes I could could an answer for that case. However you are kinda using a general stereotype, oversimplified stereotype at that, to describe an entire MBTI type. We are people and we have different backgrounds, we are raised in different ways and act in different manners. Compassion for people is not shown in a "universal" method. Yadda Yadda I think you see where I am going.
Yes, I am aware of the fact that each human being and therefore each ENFJ functions differently. Maybe I should rephrase my question: "Since ENFJs are really altruistic and seek harmony above all ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE, why are we so manipulative ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE? Shouldn't this collide with our "compassion for other human beings"?"

I asked this mainly because I was rereading about ENFJ on 16personalities, yes very simplified and generalising, but as I said, I'm very new to MBTI and need to learn about the stereotypes before I can understand more profound things.

I've always thought of manipulation as something bad, but as you say, it isn't necessarily bad. I asked my mother, since she's obviously known me my entire life, if she thought of me as manipulative. She said yes and I was stunned – I've never defined myself as manipulative, but when we started talking about it I realised that it was true and that I manipulate without even thinking about it.

Thank you for the input! I actually understand it much better now. :happy:
 

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@wzp Sorry it's just that despite the general question I know you are looking for a specific answer (otherwise you wouldn't have posted a thread about it) There is no such thing as a "silly" question. I'm just doing the best I can to find you an answer.

"Since ENFJs are really altruistic and seek harmony above all ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE, why are we so manipulative ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE? Shouldn't this collide with our "compassion for other human beings"?"


Now for the question above I can create a decent answer at least. This is when that "case by case" basis happens and I will give you an example (or try to?)

Compassion: Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

What happens when the individual you have compassion for gets in the way of your compassion?

For example let's say you have a friend (a guy named Bob) who is introspective, artsy and desires deep connections with people. Unfortunately Bob likes this girl (named Sally) who is your stereotypical popular cheerleader who is very superficial. She is only attracted to guys with money, fancy cars, etc. which is the total opposite of Bob. However Bob "sees the good in her" (or it could just be hormones lol) and tries to become her boyfriend and, of course, gets rejected. Sally thinks Bob is weird and has no desire whatsoever to be friends with Bob let alone be his girlfriend. Bob gets VERY upset about his situation with Sally (To the point of depression, even suicidal thoughts.)

You (Fe lead) hate to see Bob depressed, it makes hanging out with him very difficult/uncomfortable. You've tried reasoning with Bob however all he talks about is how much Sally "hates" him, how unhappy he and how he want to make Sally understand his feelings for her.

What do you do to fix this problem? You like Bob but he's totally being a Debbie downer!!!XD. Do you:

1.) Let Bob be depressed for a girl who doesn't care about him at all and hope he doesn't do anything stupid to endanger his life and, potentially, others.

2.) Stop being friends with Bob because he refuses to change.


See in this situation Bob's negativity is standing in the way of your compassion for Bob putting you (Fe Lead) in a tough spot because you don't want abandon Bob but you know that Bob's current path will, more than likely, lead him to a road of ruin (Bob is setting himself up for failure here) So...Bob's making crappy decisions and sticking to it...You don't want to abandon him so...only option I see is to change Bob's direction is manipulation.

Essentially Fe doms have compassion for humanity but there are times when people's ignorance/stubbornness gets in the way of our compassion for them...in which case manipulation is a way to "save people from themselves." Does that make sense?

Manipulation can be bad when you overstep your bounds and start believing "I know what's better for you more than you do" I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. That's "Bad" manipulation.

so...somehow this answers your question perhaps? O.O
 

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@wzp Sorry it's just that despite the general question I know you are looking for a specific answer (otherwise you wouldn't have posted a thread about it) There is no such thing as a "silly" question. I'm just doing the best I can to find you an answer.

"Since ENFJs are really altruistic and seek harmony above all ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE, why are we so manipulative ACCORDING TO THE STEREOTYPE? Shouldn't this collide with our "compassion for other human beings"?"


Now for the question above I can create a decent answer at least. This is when that "case by case" basis happens and I will give you an example (or try to?)

Compassion: Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

What happens when the individual you have compassion for gets in the way of your compassion?

For example let's say you have a friend (a guy named Bob) who is introspective, artsy and desires deep connections with people. Unfortunately Bob likes this girl (named Sally) who is your stereotypical popular cheerleader who is very superficial. She is only attracted to guys with money, fancy cars, etc. which is the total opposite of Bob. However Bob "sees the good in her" (or it could just be hormones lol) and tries to become her boyfriend and, of course, gets rejected. Sally thinks Bob is weird and has no desire whatsoever to be friends with Bob let alone be his girlfriend. Bob gets VERY upset about his situation with Sally (To the point of depression, even suicidal thoughts.)

You (Fe lead) hate to see Bob depressed, it makes hanging out with him very difficult/uncomfortable. You've tried reasoning with Bob however all he talks about is how much Sally "hates" him, how unhappy he and how he want to make Sally understand his feelings for her.

What do you do to fix this problem? You like Bob but he's totally being a Debbie downer!!!XD. Do you:

1.) Let Bob be depressed for a girl who doesn't care about him at all and hope he doesn't do anything stupid to endanger his life and, potentially, others.

2.) Stop being friends with Bob because he refuses to change.


See in this situation Bob's negativity is standing in the way of your compassion for Bob putting you (Fe Lead) in a tough spot because you don't want abandon Bob but you know that Bob's current path will, more than likely, lead him to a road of ruin (Bob is setting himself up for failure here) So...Bob's making crappy decisions and sticking to it...You don't want to abandon him so...only option I see is to change Bob's direction is manipulation.

Essentially Fe doms have compassion for humanity but there are times when people's ignorance/stubbornness gets in the way of our compassion for them...in which case manipulation is a way to "save people from themselves." Does that make sense?

Manipulation can be bad when you overstep your bounds and start believing "I know what's better for you more than you do" I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. That's "Bad" manipulation.

so...somehow this answers your question perhaps? O.O
Yeah! Post quality!
 

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I second that! That is an excellent post Robert, it makes that idea much more clear.

Ever write stories and/or poems? I feel you are very clear at expressing your ideas.
 
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