Yes, that does confuse me more than anything, because all it really tells me is that they are somewhat different from me. What helps me the most is when people give me reasons that are more logic based, and it would probably be more useful to examine Ti/Ne or Ni/Fe, than Ni or Ne by itself. Every time, I read the official thread on that, I want to shoot myself. :wink:
I went through this in the Enneagram forum for the longest time: a few people told me that not only did I not sound like a 5 but that I didn't even sound like a head type - solely based on the fact; that I didn't experience or express myself, exactly like them. Fortunately for me; my Enneagram journey was far less confusing than my MBTI one, and don't even get me started on Socionics :crazy:! I know that I am a 5 and I didn't allow anyone to sway me from that conviction. The problem with MBTI and JCF, is that I think I fit both types - INTP and INFJ, really well. I read the descriptions on Personality Junkie and the INFJ description (with one or two minor exceptions) fit me to a T, but so did the INTP one. I secretly wonder if I had made a comparable thread in the INTP forum - emphasizing my idealism and spirituality; that I would likely be told that I am an INFJ; even though I know more than a few NTs who are very spiritual and idealistic.
I realize that if I've met female enneagram 5 I probably wasn't aware at the time what that even is. So, honestly, I'm in a way taking mental notes.
Some things occurred to me while typing out my thoughts, on the topic of Ti ( - - ) Fe
versus - ( Fe Ti ) -
and here's how it played out, start to finish:
I definitely agree. There's a site that describes the INTP experience that I bookmarked and read several times. I identified with it quite a lot, but I knew there was something missing and I knew that being able to understand someone else doesn't mean we're exactly the same. I'm in an advantageous position of feeling like a hybrid. I find hybrids beautiful, so I have no problem with that... the problem I have is in seeking a place to belong. I'm not a social variant ennea 6w5 type of INFJ, so I don't ever try to conform to please other people or to meet their expectations solely to appease them or merely to fully comply with broad social rules. To me such behavior for the sake of compliance alone is always wrong- doing so, I wouldn't be myself. This means I walk the world disappointing people who want me to fit their mold of what I should be, do, say, and who they think I am. I see other people doing the same thing and have to be able to recognize why they are doing it, even if /when I happen to disagree with the way they are currently doing it.
I'm not who they think I am, I am who I am. I belong in a place where people understand this. I belong with people who understand this. It isn't inferior Fe at all; It's auxiliary Fe. I will never adapt to the degree that I lose my identity to keep other people comfortable. They don't decide who I am, I do. They don't decide whether my actions are right or wrong, I do. I mention this because it's a bit of a different growth process to learn to dial back emphasis on auxiliary Fe as an INFJ, than it is for an INTP learning to direct their inferior Fe in a healthy way.
There was always pressure on me to be "normal" to "fit in" and kids treated me very badly any time that I strayed from behavior they thought was acceptable. I had to learn to be, well, eccentric in private. As a smart kid, I was accused of brown nosing or being "teacher's pet" so I learned to not raise my hand even when I knew the answer 100%. I didn't want that negative attention or false accusations. I simply loved learning. Getting a teacher's approval was not my goal. The other kids didn't understand this about me. I conformed only enough to get by but it meant slowly dying inside.
It caused me a lot of pain because, again, I'm not a social variant enneagram- I'm self-preservation. I traded the pain of rejection with the pain of rejecting an integral part of myself. I was forcing myself to attempt to be what others wanted me to be in whatever ways I could -not many, at that- but quickly gave up. I just couldn't. It hurt too much. Instead, I withdrew from people whenever possible because disappointing them -after first not being accepted as myself, and secondly making the strenuous effort to sacrifice who I am but it not working- was too much to bear. I was miserable.
I wanted to adapt, but I couldn't, which made my chronic depression even more severe.
I'll contrast this a bit with someone I know who is a very young INTP.
I have a 6-year-old grand nephew who is obviously INTP. It's painful for me to watch him at this age wielding his Ti dominance around other kids who have no idea what the hell he's talking about... and see him get upset when he wants to be left alone but has no idea how to communicate these simple social niceties so, instead, he becomes angry and verbally abusive. He doesn't understand how he has hurt his ENFJ cousin's feelings. He just understands that he doesn't want to have anything to do with her for at least an hour and is frustrated that she doesn't understand "Leave me alone!". Well, she's 4-years-old and an Fe dominant. He liked playing with her 30 minutes ago, 3 days ago, 3 months ago- it makes no sense at all to her that he's suddenly changed his mind and is acting like he hates her. He could just be civil and she would actually comply- I've seen her do it willingly when I've used that tactic, but he's 6-years-old with inferior Fe; he's too young to realize how to channel that Fe properly. Luckily, he has an ESFJ father with a good sense of humor so I'm not too worried about my grand nephew.
If anyone can glean anything useful from this, I'm glad.