[Chesire Tower]

I've been struggling with various types and after reading the INFJ description, on Personality Junkie decided that I related to that one the most. The only other one to even come close to that was INTP. Those were also the only two, that I related to the being "in the grip" inferior functions, with INFJ having the decided edge.

I took the PerC Cognitive functions test, and my 3 highest scores were INTP, INFJ and ENTP. I've pretty much written off that one, 'though; so I know for sure, it is between those two.

The reason I am posting this here, and not in either the Cognitive Functions or the Myers-Briggs forums; is that when I tried to explain my experience of Ni; non N doms types had no idea what I was talking about; so I would rather just get INFJ's opinions only.

 

[Chesire Tower]

When I first took the MBTI; I would get INFP half the time and INTP, the other half, but I never really felt that the INFP description fit me. Recently, I had been getting INTP more often but with just a slight edge of T over F. I even got ENTP a few times and even INTJ! - which based on the description; I knew couldn't possibly fit me. By studying the functions; I realized that I had high Ti and moderate Fe. I am not at all cold like the INFP description and having strong Fe would also account for me having a low to moderate I over E, as well.

I do care about humanity and want to help make a better world; although, I don't really think about it all that often. I know that I can be very caring and have a very high EQ, but I am extremely awkward in social situations. I usually put my own needs first, 'though. I do believe in fairness as an important concept. I am an E type 5w4 which probably accounts for a lot of my confusion.

When I read the PJ description; it seem to reconcile not only the whole T/F split but my confusion over J/P preferences as well. I did score both high Ni and Ne on the JCF test as well and I do use both but Ni comes much more naturally to me and Ne takes a bit more effort.

I also relate more to Se than Si; although on the test; Si was moderate and Se was almost non-existent but that's probably why it may be my inferior. I used to suffer from Agoraphobia and I am terrified of subways during rush hour and noisy unpredictable crowds - especially in enclosed spaces, make me extremely uncomfortable.

I am also have a very difficult time with dealing with my emotions - especially negative ones; hurt, sadness and any type of severe emotional pain absolutely terrifies me. This is probably where the confusion over my inferior function comes in: When I get really upset about something; I can sometimes experience this scary state where I feel disconnected from my body, may briefly dissociate and feel depersonalized. I also can overdo and underdo just about anything from overeating/undereating oversleep/undersleep. I have a great deal of trouble getting myself organized to do anything but once I get started; I usually complete whatever it is. I am also a perfectionist. I have gotten myself into trouble by doing too many things at once. I once enrolled in two university courses and two dance classes. When I realized that it was too much; I knew that I needed to drop one of them but I couldn't decide which one. Ultimately, the decision was decided for me: During one of the dance classes - due to lack of sleep and overexhaustion, I sprained my ankle; had to drop both of the dance classes and wound up attending the academic courses in crutches.

I have an extreme fear of both being engulfed and abandoned by people but the fear off engulfment definitely is the stronger one. It isn't just people but the outside world in general. I am an extreme empath and can usually tell what other people are feeling at any given moment; so an strong expression of emotion - especially negative ones, anger in particular - seems much more intense to me; than what the other person is actually expressing.

I am extremely disorganized and frequently late for everything but that may also be due to in part to my being a perfectionist and suffering from occasional bouts of intense anxiety. The description of INXJs being a "disembodied mind" fits me to a T and I have been that way, probably since birth. I also have moderate ADD and mild Dyslexia (mixing up letters and numbers).

I love art and experience this great sense of oneness with the universe whenever I am around it. That's likely why I relate to Se more than Si. I am also in a fair bit of debt from overspending on things I didn't really need. My apartment resembles a miniature museum and I have different style of art, all over the place. I love patterns, metaphors and symbolism and I love to make interconnections between things and unify them into a single whole.

I've watched a few different Cognitive types videos and I related most to the communication styles of the XNTPs but then I again, I really don't know what I am like because I don't know how I look to others. I also resemble the INFJs style of speech as well. This was one of the major clues that I could neither be in INFP - not concise enough, or an INTJ - not enough vocal inflection. I am absolutely obsessed with humour. I love to wisecrack and see the absurd in almost everything.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Could you add a description of how you experience Ni (or link to where you have described it in a way that you feel is accurate for you?)

To answer your question, I see Ni as calmly observing and taking in information around me (Se?) and seeing the interrelated patterns in everything, and taking those patterns and attempting to unify them into an interconnected whole.

I used to think that my initial impulse was to logically analyze everything but I only do that when I find a logical discrepancy in something.

In case it might be helpful; I have included a couple of posts from another thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/158882-solution-inxproblem.html

After spending a lot of tine on Personality Junkie; I am convinced that I must be an INFJ.

I realised that despite my usage of Ne to some extant; I am in fact Ni dominant. I was confused by this because a lot of things interest me, but I like to explore one topic at a time, in depth. This likely explains why I did much better in my studies when I was able to focus on one or not more than two subjects at a time, and felt burnt out when I had to study many courses at once.

I also realised that I've confused Ti with Ni to some extant. They are both analytical and Ni believes that paradoxical ideas can sometimes go together; where as Ti seeks to differentiate between them, rather than pursue synthesis. It also explains my frustration with an INFP friend of mine who jumps from topic to topic; when I want to explore a single topic in more depth before I investigate another one. INFJs also prefer non-fiction to fiction, and they are good at expressing positive emotions; unlike INFPs who can seem cold. However, this more than anything convinced me:

INFJs also have a deep concern for quality. As will be elaborated later in this profile, they long to see their ideals (Ni) perfectly manifested in physical reality (Se). This need for quality underlies many common INFJ characteristics. Their attraction to art, for instance, can be understood as their attempt to perfectly embody an ideal in physical reality. Their love for fine food, clothes, and architecture can be understood similarly. Unlike INFPs, who tend to see food, clothes, and housing as little more than physical necessities, INFJs see the physical world as a forum for manifesting beauty and perfection, a place to marry their Ni and Se.

INFJ-INTP Relationships & Compatibility: Part III: Challenges - Personality Junkie

More specifically, INFJs’ inner child can get very excited about the arts and culture. Their Ni, Fe, and Se functions love relishing and experiencing fine meals, music, productions, and art. There is something very magical for INFJs about seeing the marriage of S and N through these media, which can confer a deep sense of fullness, wholeness, and joy. What makes these experiences even better for INFJs is having someone to share and celebrate them with. And since their Feeling function is extraverted, they look for their partner to join them in their excitement, making such experiences all the richer.

Since INTPs are neither N dominants nor Feelers, their interest in arts and culture cannot match the INFJs’, especially if not raised in an artsy family. Rather, INTPs’ interests tend to be more conceptual and utility-focused. And while Fe is a part of INTPs’ functional stack, its inferior position makes INTPs far less outwardly celebrative and expressive. Moreover, INTPs often get excited about different things than INFJs. While INFJs may find pure joy in a fine meal or performance, INTPs are most excited by new ideas, possibilities, or challenges. (This Personality Junkie Post is continued on the next page.)
Others report feelings of disembodiment. The fact is that many INFJs (and INTJs) seem to experience the world and their bodies differently than other types do. It is therefore not uncommon for INFJs or others to occasionally question their sanity.

Others report feelings of disembodiment. The fact is that many INFJs (and INTJs) seem to experience the world and their bodies differently than other types do. It is therefore not uncommon for INFJs or others to occasionally question their sanity.

While INFJS are deeply theoretical, they don’t build their theories by consciously assembling facts in the way that Thinking or Sensing types might. Rather, INFJs see general connections and patterns by way of their Intuition; they experience everything as interconnected. For INFJs, discovering truth involves getting a better handle on the nature of this connectedness by discerning universal laws and patterns.

I always thought their was something wrong with me in my difficulty engaging with the external environment. After reading everything; I've come to the conclusion that being an INFJ explains a hell of a lot. Although, I still do relate to INTP; it's extremely clear that I am one of them and now, I strongly lean towards INFJ.

 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/158882-solution-inxproblem.html

Well, there is no doubt that I'm an N - both verified on every single test as well as in the function descriptions, and a weak to moderate I by about 75% of the tests; the only dichotomies I've come across were both T/F and J/P. On MBTI, I would score a P 80% of the time but on Cognitive functions, I would get J a lot more frequently. I realize that my J/P preference are very different in the external world than in my own personal one. As for T/F; it obviously makes a ton of sense why I don't relate to either INTJ or INFP; since both of those types seem to be more likely to devalue either the T/F preference than INTP or INFJ.

In addition to what I've posted above; I read on one of the links you referred me to, that "INFJs are the least NF" and relate equally well to the NT description.

I relate to that statement completely and according to Personality Junkie both INTPs and INFJs are as equally likely to be interested in the humanities and sciences. The main difference as I see it; is that INFJs have a more personal interest and INTPs a more academic, however, I relate to both of those.

I also disagree with you about Ne; just like there is a variation amongst T types as to regards of how much F influences their preferences and ditto for NFs and Ts; there is also a variation of how much Ni and Ne an individual has. I happen to be strong at both but if I am honest; Ni does seem to come more naturally to me, but I can and do use Ne but it always seems a bit forced and unnatural, unlike Ni which seems to be as natural to me as breathing. I am also very good at Ti. I am reasonable at Fe but it's very possible that I might have a Ni/Ti functional loop?

Do you have any links about that? I know that I only use Fi and Te when Ni/Ti/Fe/S don't work. Also, in descriptions of the inferior functions; I don't relate at all to negative Te (INFP), a somewhat to Fe (INTP) and a lot to Se (INXJ). I never fully feel comfortable in the external world; unless I feel well, am clear headed and am emotionally at my best.

I read on Personality Junkie, that INTPs have a "love/hate relationship with Fe (as do INFPs with Te)" but INFJs due to using Fe not Fi, usually don't know what they're feeling either. I can verify that at least one INFJ has told me that they view Ti as a way of keeping what they see as unreliable Fe, in line.

 

[Chesire Tower]

@TreasureTower
Are darkness and mystery an integral part of your being??

Well, I'm not sure about darkness; I have experienced it, yes, especially when I am feeling really vulnerable but it isn't a typical part of my personality. Mystery, OTOH, totally! Everything to me, including myself is full of mystery and wonder; that's why I enjoy symbols, metaphors and abstract concepts so much. Perhaps, it's just a different view of what darkness is to me. Real darkness to me; is when everything feels foggy to me and I remain stuck, until I discover this "sense" in me of undeniable clarity. Words and logic can only go so far in explaining things. The greatest truth can only be experienced from deep from within oneself, like a revelation that completely explains everything. @Aquarian has expressed it herself: how she suddenly get that "a-ha" moment when everything just becomes crystal clear to her. That's the only way, I ever can feel certain of anything.

maybe because Ni as a perception power directed inwardly sees deeper into the unconscious? and the nearer you come to the unknown, the more your Ti wants to understand and classify your perceptions. you walk deeper and deeper, and it is no wonder that sooner or later you are confronted with the bare, crude darkness that is part of each of us. if you dare go deeper, you will learn more about it and accept it as a legitimate part of yourself. NOT DENYING that darkness that everyone carries deep inside but actually seeing beauty in it makes us appear "dark and mysterious" I guess.

Not sure that actually explains how it is for me (or maybe it's more that Ni includes perceptual access to a collective unconscious so it isn't about my individual unconscious). But anyway, for sure I perceive beauty in that minor chord/darkness resonance - not like some sort of emotional beauty but perceptual beauty, like hearing music.

*musing*

And it isn't like some sort of goth-dark individual emotional thing for me at all. I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to describe the experience of having material resonate in or through me that other people seem to feel would floor them in terms of pain or intensity and I can't find a way to do it that adequately expresses how much it's NOT a personal experience for me at some really basic level. Which seems to link to this part of what you wrote in the previous comment:

Ni allows you to do that by way of detachment, even from yourself.

Though I have to say sometimes I'm not clear what's related to Ni and what's related to other aspects of how I'm made.

I completely relate to everything that you said in this post.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Well, that description could be one of two things:

1. Ti: When my Ti analysis finally reveals the whole picture and how its parts relate. Yes, it can feel like "everything becomes crystal clear" in that situation.

2. Ni: A resonant gut-level sense-perception of "yes this is true" that is often linked to a particular piece of information, whether a phrase or an image or other keystone.

(could you remind me where you got that from if you have the link handy? That will say more about the context)

I can also perceive from inside what I call the Ni landscape, but it's not so much a feeling of crystal clarity or "a-ha" as it is a gut level sense of ... alignment is one word for it ... in being in my most organic landscape and moving according to how it's set up (contrasted with not moving in that Ni landscape - that tends to feel/vibrate gut-level distorted).

I relate to both of those actually: Ti, when I am able to make logical sense of something that previously didn't add up and Ni, when I have this sudden epiphany that just seemed to come out of nowhere, which I can get either by observing or experiencing something in the external world, something I've read or just by doing nothing at all. I find that applying logic in that situation is counterproductive, but anyway, I couldn't analyze if I want to because when something you want to understand is so deep inside of me and/or mysterious/profound; I need to just basically meditate on it; until the revelation comes. That is basically what happened to me when I read the Personality Junkie description of he INFJ. While I did think that, while it did logically make sense to me; it wasn't until later when this enormous feeling just swelled up inside of me, then I knew; that something life-altering and deeply significant experience had occurred inside of me. It had nothing whatsoever do with type. After this reverie, it seemed to me that my entire life was suddenly explained to me. All of the questions I never could find answers to; totally added up. I've always had this little voice inside my head that kept telling me I was crazy because things just never made any sense to me; until I read that article. The ever present anxiety that I was only aware of at a shrouded, mysterious level, greatly decreased. I suddenly witnessed the "truth" that had previously always had eluded me. Honestly, I still can't accurately explain to you why or how it happened. I know, it just did.

As for the link: I think, it is in the Ni vs. Ti thread. I will look it up and post it; when I find it.

I am still looking but I did find this little gem from you:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151459-ti-vs-ni.html

As Ni-dom/Ti-tert, I often find myself feeling something going on but unable to consciously understand it at first, and then it takes a while before I can bring it into analytical consciousness.

That is exactly how I process information. I generally use Ti to either evaluate specific concepts to assess for rationality, only, but that doesn't mean that I can actually understand anything through logic alone. I also use Ti, to reign in irrational emotions. But when I don't have a clear framework to analyze - which is most of the time; I have to do it that way, because nothing else will work.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Here is another post of yours from that thread:

Sounds a lot like Ni to me, is that your assessment as well?

I often have hunches, feelings that seem to come out of nowhere about persons, places, situations, etc. For example, I was speaking to this person awhile ago. He seemed really nice on the surface but something was just off about him. I couldn't put it into words at the time but my hunch was telling me that the image of himself that he wanted me to see didn't quite jibe which was underneath. I was able to revisit the conversation I had with him and single in on logical inconsistencies in the things he had said to me. A few weeks later, my "confusion" was cleared up because in response to a perfectly innocent question I had asked him; he basically flipped out, yelled at me and threw out all sorts of irrational and paranoid accusations at me; thus, my hunch was validated.

Sounds a lot like Ni to me, is that your assessment as well?

I have also confused Fi with Ni for that reason.

I don't understand this at all - why would Fi do this?

And here is a quote, also from that thread by Abraxas:

Ni user is readily aware of the fact that the connection doesn't exist in the data itself - the connection is something internal bound up in who we are and choose to be. This is why all the function descriptions of Ni talk about personal metamorphosis and such, because if you change yourself, then what holds symbolic significance to you changes as well. This is also why Ni doesn't carry with it the same sense of confidence that Ne does - because the Ni user is perfectly aware of his insight as disassociating with reality and pointing at it's subjectivity. Instead, their confidence would come from knowing how to correctly apply and make use of their insight via Te or Fe, which is why those functions are their auxiliary and why you tend to see them the most.

 

[Chesire Tower]

@TreasureTower, you're convinced you're an INFJ and I am increasingly of the perspective that you're not.

As for this dialogue, for me it's like the words get all slippery and I don't have the energy to pick it apart at this point. I will say that I feel quite strongly that you're subtly misusing what I wrote, a sort of shading from Ni into Ti like a sort of shell game sleight of hand, too quick to see, and I really wish you wouldn't use it to justify your typing. I'd be happy to be wrong about the typing but I'd prefer no to have my words subtly misused like that.

I know you don't have any bad intentions but I really don't like this situation and I apologize for getting involved with this thread in the first place - I really should have known better.

I'm really sorry that you feel that way. It was my honest belief that not only was I not misusing your words, but that the words that you used in that previous thread; really spoke to me now, if not at the time they were written. I wasn't intending to use your words like some weapon to convince you of anything. I felt that I really understood and related to them at a very deep level. I sincerely apologise if I failed in my utmost attempt to communicate that to you in that way.

And FWIW, I am not convinced of anything other than what I was when I started this thread: That I am either an INFJ or an INTP. It does me absolutely no good trying to "convince" you or anyone else of what my type is. Where would that get me? I posted this thread to gain self-knowledge. If what you are saying is correct and all I am seeking is some kind of validation; then this entire thread would be a complete sham, wouldn't it? After all, I already posted in another thread that I completely related to the Personality Junkie description of INFJ and no one questioned it, I might add; so based on that, there would have been no point to making this thread in the first place.

The additional reasons that I posted your quotes from this thread is that - despite scanning that entire thread for that elusive quote - I was sadly unable to locate it. I know I read it but at the moment; the thread where you posted it in, escapes me. When I came across posts of yours that I considered to be just as explanatory that I could totally relate to; I didn't see any harm to posting them in this thread. To be perfectly honest; I still don't, but if doing that upsets you this much; than I have no choice but to refrain.

I think 'though, that the reason you consider what I did to be objectionable; is solely based on a misunderstanding of my intention for doing so. I swear to you; that I did not do it, to "justify" anything, and I am not trying to justify anything in this post; other than your misperception of my intention to "justify" as opposed to gaining further understanding of what my type is.

See, I don't see the point of doing what you have accused me of. I am not in any way, shape or form; treating my quest to type myself accurately, as some shady lawyer trying to win a case. Yes, I do do that sometimes in certain threads where that is not only appropriate but it logically makes sense to do so. I have way too much respect for both myself and you; to ever do anything that underhanded and well . . . nonsensical as that would be to me.

Furthermore, had you not specifically requested that I attempt to find that quote; it would have never even occurred to me, to repost any of your quotes in this thread. I felt that by failing to find the exact source, of that quote of yours; that I would be both disappointing you and myself and I believed, that posting something comparable; was better than failing to come up with nothing at all.

So, yes now; I am definitely trying and hopefully have convinced you of something. That you have wrongly misconstrued why I did what I did. That, and ONLY that; will I "justify" to the ends of the earth. I may not as yet have figured out my type but I am the only one, who can ever know the "why" of doing what I do.

:sad:

 

[Chesire Tower]

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151459-ti-vs-ni.html

ain't that the one? post #4?

No, but thanks for trying anyway.
@Sweetish and @Rather Unusual; honestly; all I am here for is to figure out whether I am an INFJ or an INTP. I certainly have no intention of starting a war or anything.

:happy:

 

[Chesire Tower]

I agree with you on this point, this has been the cause for my mistyping as well. However, I also see how it can be very difficult to understand yourself when you are torn between reason/logic and just knowing, being detached/cool and HIGHLY empathetic... It's a Ti/Fe issue.

Yes, this! Finally, someone has totally nailed down my dilemma.

 

[Chesire Tower]

I think a lot of INFJs run into this issue. Like someone above said, Ti tends to scream really loud in certain situations, especially if you're a more academic type.

Yet the inherent difference between INTP and INFJ is what's dominant. I'll use an example to explain to the best of my ability. Let's say an INFJ and an INTP both get into an argument with someone. An INTP would immediately check to see if what the other person is saying is logical or accurate. If not, an INTP would readily dismiss it and move on. So if you were to call an INTP stupid, he'd probably see if it makes sense, and if it doesn't he'll dismiss it or rip the argument to shreds.

On the other hand an INFJ in an argument would begin by looking beyond what was said. They'll look beyond the words in order to get an abstract idea of the underlying concept from which the argument is based. INTPs look at the argument on a logical basis, INFJs look PAST the argument into what was really meant. So if you were to call an INFJ stupid, they'd want to understand the larger meaning behind you calling them stupid. This is why INFJs are prone to taking everything seriously; everything is connected to something else. You calling them stupid may be seen by them as a symptom of everything that's wrong with their lives. To them singular events are representative of larger things going on in the background. That's how INFJs look at things.

Now when an INTP is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Si to hold onto the conclusion that he came to. You call an INTP stupid, he disproves it, and he holds onto that information. If anyone calls him stupid again, he'll automatically know that this isn't the case, due to past experience.

When an INFJ is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Ti to look at the intuitions provided earlier. You call an INFJ stupid, he takes it to mean something deeper about himself or life in general, and then he uses his Ti to see which of those deeper implications is true or false. This is when INFJs mull over something fanatically. He may decide that you called him stupid because he isn't capable of understanding how other people think, thus a symptom of the human tendency not to understand others that are different. If Ti checks it out, the INFJ has pulled a huge, universal truth out of a simple event. That's both a blessing and a curse. On one hand INFJs have the ability to pull wisdom from simple, everyday events. On the other hand it's very easy for an INFJ to jump to conclusions with little info to back it up. For example if someone gives me a funny look my Ni will jump to the conclusion that that person hates me and then to the conclusion that I'm socially inept. That raises emotional problems and mood swings.

Excuse me if this is just a dumb example, but that's a good way to check the difference. To put it shortly, INTPs are much less likely to mull over something than an INFJ would. If it doesn't make sense to an INTP, he'll usually move on. An INFJ will focus on an issue for years, from numerous perspectives, drawing numerous implications from it.

Okay, well what I would do in that situation would be entirely context dependent. If I was having an argument about an isolated subject on PerC for example; with someone I basically had no real connection with; than I would definitely relate to the Ti example and apply logic to it and not sweat it too much. However, if the person who called me "stupid"; was someone who's opinion I valued - especially anyone I had any meaningful type of connection with at all; then the Ni example would be much more applicable.

When my emotions are not engaged; I freely and coolly use Ti logic. When my feelings are involved; that doesn't work because, I am a very emotional person -even though, I do my best to hide any negative emotions - assuming I actually know what I'm feeling. I frequently don't know what I'm feeling at the time it is happening; if I'm feeling extremely emotional about something. Usually what would happen to me in that situation is I would feel somewhat disoriented and experience some kind of cognitive dissonance.

When I eventually made sense of what had taken place and my subsequent reaction to it; then I would in all likelihood drive myself nuts over it. My point is that my feelings for the person totally influence my perception of the situation. The deeper connection I have with a person; the less I am able to be objective and detached. However, I will eventually process everything and make sense of it. I will see things in perspective and connect the dots. I will utilise Ti logic to logically evaluate the other person's behaviour and come to the conclusion that what they said was not only inaccurate but mean. calling a person "stupid" as opposed to an idea is morally unjustifiable - especially in a close relationship. The very fact that they have not only crossed an ethical line; ipso facto invalidates their opinion on that basis alone. If I then find their opinion to be illogical as well; then it further confirms things for me. If their opinion of me were to have some basis in reality; I would take it into account and try to learn from it but because the person crossed an ethical line; they would cease to be a person who I could take seriously.

My point is that I judge people on both an ethical and logical basis. I would probably trust them more if they were less logical and more ethical; than the other way around but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't bother me or haunt me since I can be very sensitive. I use Ti, because as a 5; I view knowledge as power and as a 4 wing; I can be deeply affected by other people.

 

[Chesire Tower]

In my experience Ti-doms don't seem to be tormented by this dichotomy, Ti is a very chilled out, cool function, whereas Fe is FIRE and PASSION and (not in the sexual sense lol) When Ni dominates the rest of the psyche, Fe is cooled down a bit (as compared to Fe-doms).

I can literally feel myself being filled up with energy every time I touch on my passions - understanding and helping human beings.

Yes, sometimes it feels as though my Fe and Ti seem to be at war with each other: wanting to do the right thing, and the logical thing at the same time. For example, I may be stubborn; as in I will stick to my guns, if I believe in something and it is important to me. But, if I am arguing with someone who needs to be right - basically logic and facts be damned. We've all met this person, I'm sure. :laughing: I will not press it because I have far better things to do with my time. However, I do struggle with my feelings about such situations because; disharmony makes me very uncomfortable.

So again; it comes back to the dilemma from your last post: I need things to be both ethical an logical and I am not happy if either principle is sacrificed. There is a definite schism between my thinking and feeling. I almost always know what is the logical thing and ethical thing to do in most situations but my emotions can sometimes paralyze me and incapacitate me from acting in the most productive way.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Because I was beckoned by Ms @Sweetish, I shall enter my input. @TreasureTower You're an INFJ.
Your conundrum sounds excruciatingly like mine.
The crowd overwhelming is inferior Se making itself present.
Your desire for order and logic, but being overridden by the group/extrapersonal setting is proof of Fe over Ti in function stack ordering.
And that bodily disconnect you spoke of, very Ni dom. My mind will float into space away from my body if I'm not paying attention.
And being a 5, it just makes your desire for that Ti even stronger.

Sooooo, INFJ. 'Nuff said.

Twitch

PS: @Aquarian its not uncommon for an INFJ to come across as a Ti dom when writing because Ti often takes precedence as writing is an internal development process rather than an external one.

Yes, the body disconnect thing is the main reason I am leaning towards INFJ but the description on Personality Junkie is so eerily accurate, it seems as if it was written about me.

INFJ Personality Profile - Personality Junkie

Because of their strength of intuition, many INFJs report feeling like aliens in the world. One INFJ described her experience as a constant feeling of deja vu. Others report feelings of disembodiment. The fact is that many INFJs (and INTJs) seem to experience the world and their bodies differently than other types do. It is therefore not uncommon for INFJs or others to occasionally question their sanity.

I will give you an example: In a few day, I will be required to exit from a busy subway train during rush hour while I am carrying luggage. During rush hour, other people force their way into the train and prevent the people who need to get off from doing so - especially on the most hectic stop on the entire line. I have been agonising over this for the past few days, when suddenly it hit me: I can just get there before rush hour; then it won't be as terrifying for me.

Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

But a change comes over the picture when the importance of the object reaches a still higher level. As already explained above, such an assimilation of subject to object then occurs as almost completely to engulf the subject of feeling. Feeling loses its personal character -- it becomes feeling per se; it almost seems as though the [p. 450] personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. Now, since in actual life situations constantly and successively alternate, in which the feeling-tones released are not only different but are actually mutually contrasting, the personality inevitably becomes dissipated in just so many different feelings. Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next -- apparently, I repeat, for in reality such a manifold personality is altogether impossible. The basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the feeling-subject as an alteration of his ego, a mood, in other words. Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident, i.e. the original compensatory attitude of the unconscious becomes a manifest opposition.

(...)So long as conscious feeling preserves the personal character, or, in other words, so long as the personality does not become swallowed up by successive states of feeling, this unconscious thinking remains compensatory. But as soon as the personality is dissociated, becoming dispersed in mutually contradictory states of feeling, the identity of the ego is lost, and the subject becomes unconscious. But, because of the subject's lapse into the unconscious, it becomes associated with the unconscious thinking -- function, therewith assisting the unconscious [p. 452] thought to occasional consciousness. The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more 'depersonalized,' it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the 'nothing but' style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

When I am either under extreme stress or very upset; I can totally relate to this.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Ok, sorry, I was in "senser mode", (not a slander towards sensers, but I was operating on my Ti-Se heavily so as not to piss off or confuse my senser dominant coworkers/customers) and I wasn't "feeling" the posts (INFJ's get this, not sure if other types do too)...

I don't feel a whole lot of Fe or Ni in the posts, so @TreasureTower could be INTP. We need a few more viewpoint/interaction questions.

Have you taken a function test, and ignored the "possible" types but kept the usage results?
When someone you care about is hurt/distressed emotionally, do you sit back or immediately help them?
Do you finish other people's sentences?
Do you all encompassing memory or just from your viewpoint?
Do you collect all kinds of data are just that which pertains to you?

Twitch

I will post the results.

I got INTP, INFJ and ENTP as possible types.

If I care about someone, of course; I try to do whatever I could to help them; as I assume, they would do me.

I'm not sure about that; I think that sometimes I might? I often can predict - in a general sense - what someone is going to say, before they say it; of course, this correlates to greater familiarity, of course Perhaps, it would be more accurate to say; I often can predict how someone I know will react to something.

"Do you all encompassing memory or just from your viewpoint?"
Can you rephrase this question? I'm not sure what you are asking me.

I collect data on anything and everything that interests me and people interest me the most.

PerC Cognitive Function Test
This is the result of my latest test

Based on your cognitive functions, your type is most likely:
Most Likely: INTP
or Second Possibility: INFJ
or Third Possibility: ENTP


Your Cognitive Functions:
Introverted Thinking (Ti) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.99
Introverted Intuition (Ni) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.58
Extroverted Intuition (Ne) ||||||||||||||||||||| 9.73
Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||||||||||| 8.54
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ||||||||||||||| 6.94
Extroverted Feeling (Fe) ||||||||||||||| 6.52
Extroverted Thinking (Te) |||||||||||||| 6.24
Extroverted Sensation (Se) ||||||||| 3.57

Your Introverted Intuition (Ni) is very developed.
Your Introverted Thinking (Ti) is very developed.
Your Extroverted Intuition (Ne) is moderate.
Your Introverted Sensation (Si) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Thinking (Te) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is moderate.
Your Introverted Feeling (Fi) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Sensation (Se) is poorly developed.


Your cognitive functions are, in order of development:
Ti - Ni - Ne - Si - Fi - Fe - Te - Se

Here are some quick descriptions of your functions, in order of preference:

The Introverted Thinking (Ti) function is used when an individual analyzes something, breaks it apart, and categorizes and defines its elements. This is the foundation of logical thinking. Ti is crucial in identifying logical inconsistencies and putting together logical arguments. Those with strong Ti usually have an ability to remain objective even when it may bother others.

The Introverted Intuition (Ni) function implicitly recognizes that one term can have multiple meanings, and allows the individual to disconnect themselves from the concept of 'objective truth'. This allows those with strong Ni to 'rewire' the connections that form a concept and test it from new and unique angles. This is why the Ni dominant types are often called analysts: they can pull apart an idea and test each individual piece to see how it changes the whole.

The Extroverted Intuition (Ne) function is oriented toward generating new possibilities. Ne is all about brainstorming - imagining a variety of possible outcomes and considering them all to be possibly true. Ne is associated with new ideas and innovative breakthroughs.

The Introverted Sensation (Si) function compares past events with current events. Si is associated with vivid memory recall and a reliance on experiential learning. Those with strong Si often prefer to take a 'hands on approach'. On the other hand, those with weak Si often do not benefit from interacting in that way.

The Introverted Feeling (Fi) function attempts to find meaning in the world. In this sense, 'feeling' doesn't necessarily mean 'emotions' - it refers to the subjective and subtle sense of value within a situation. It is often associated with gut reactions about the fairness or goodness of an interaction. Those with strong Fi usually care less about objective facts and more about what's fair or right.

The Extroverted Feeling (Fe) function is used when an individual acts in a considerate way to the feelings and beliefs of the people around them. Those with strong Fe can easily empathize with other people and is the most likely to be a 'people person.' Those with weak Fe may find themselves offending people unintentionally.

The Extroverted Thinking (Te) function imposes our own order on the world around us. Te structures the world in logical ways, ranging from the physical world (your desk, your office, etc) to concepts (creating 'flow charts' of ideas in your mind.)

The Extroverted Sensation (Se) function is associated with a vivid perception of the world, taking into account details that others may miss. Se is about being closely tuned to the world around you, and that usually translates into following 'gut impulses' and taking great pleasure in physical action. Those with weak Se may sometimes feel 'disconnected' from the world around them.

I almost always feel this way.

The Introverted Intuition (Ni) function implicitly recognizes that one term can have multiple meanings, and allows the individual to disconnect themselves from the concept of 'objective truth'. This allows those with strong Ni to 'rewire' the connections that form a concept and test it from new and unique angles. This is why the Ni dominant types are often called analysts: they can pull apart an idea and test each individual piece to see how it changes the whole.

I do this all the time. I always like looking at things from different perspective and see how those things are altered by the subsequent reframing.

 

[Chesire Tower]

I agree this this post very much, I just can't shake that vibe. To me it feels like you are an INTP who strongly identifies with INFJs. I think if you want a sound answer form yourself and others we should bring in Ni vs Ne.

I relate to both Ni and Ne. I like Ne to see how things are interconnected and how it leads to different but Ni comes more naturally to me. If I am genuinely interested in something; I want to understand it fully I break it down and observe and examine all of the interconnected patterns, until I thoroughly understand something.

If I am an INTP, than how do you account for my having such high Fe? INTP fears Fe because they don't always know the proper emotional response to things. INFJs can fear Fe because they tend to absorb everyone else's feelings. If this is correct; then my fear of Fe is definitely the latter, not the former.

I wonder how many INFJs are E 5s, because it would be extremely helpful to get an E 5 INFJ's perspective on this.

 

[Chesire Tower]

That's what bothers me about the INFJ inquisition. Leading with introverted iNtuition to detect "vibes" is foolish. It's subjective. It's symbolic but only in a way that a specific individual understands it. When you don't even fully know what it means, yet you let it make your decisions and sway your judgments so very quickly that's blatant misuse. Ask a person with anxiety how useful a "gut hunch" is. Most often, IT ISN'T. That's what reality checks are for. Trusting intuition blindly is foolish- that's not what it's for. Spending time trying to make sense of Ni in a way that is objective can fail; it often does. Zoom out and see the bigger picture, suddenly all these variables the individual didn't consider [because they didn't even SEE them] apply- they always applied, but in that individual's mind they don't apply until that moment of swimming back to the surface of the ocean desperate for air. Keep trying to breathe that water, you'll inevitably drown.

Plenty of people have the capability within their human brain to recognize and even emulate the other JCF which aren't their primary 4; INFJ are quite good at that. I'm sure there are people who would believe I utilize Ne, not realizing that the reason why I can emulate it when I want to is because I was in a serious relationship with an INFP for half my life (it's much easier to do with caffeine, sugar, and sleep deprivation, but w/e).

I'm sure there are people who would believe I have strong Ti (I do), not realizing that the reason why is because I'm a head enneagram (5, 6, and 7 each are) and I'm 32 years old. I've had plenty of time to hone Ti while by myself off in my own little world or as a student. It doesn't make me a Ti-dom; it makes me an "academic" flavor of INFJ.

I think several INFJ just need to experience life outside of the familiarity of their comfort zone to the point of asking really hard questions about their own, limited perception. That's the problem; it's limited. If something feels "off" it doesn't necessarily mean it's so starkly different from who you identify yourself to be and what labels you put on it that you'll never be able to recognize it for what it actually is, both how different and how alike it is, given enough time and experience. Be careful with your labels. "Not like me" does not equal "not my MBTI". Be complex about the appropriate things and simplistic about the appropriate things. Mix one up for the other, though, and you're in for trouble.

Yes, that does confuse me more than anything, because all it really tells me is that they are somewhat different from me. What helps me the most is when people give me reasons that are more logic based, and it would probably be more useful to examine Ti/Ne or Ni/Fe, than Ni or Ne by itself. Every time, I read the official thread on that, I want to shoot myself. :wink:

I went through this in the Enneagram forum for the longest time: a few people told me that not only did I not sound like a 5 but that I didn't even sound like a head type - solely based on the fact; that I didn't experience or express myself, exactly like them. Fortunately for me; my Enneagram journey was far less confusing than my MBTI one, and don't even get me started on Socionics :crazy:! I know that I am a 5 and I didn't allow anyone to sway me from that conviction. The problem with MBTI and JCF, is that I think I fit both types - INTP and INFJ, really well. I read the descriptions on Personality Junkie and the INFJ description (with one or two minor exceptions) fit me to a T, but so did the INTP one. I secretly wonder if I had made a comparable thread in the INTP forum - emphasizing my idealism and spirituality; that I would likely be told that I am an INFJ; even though I know more than a few NTs who are very spiritual and idealistic.

"INFJ inquisition": I suddenly got all these images of literally being killed with kindness.

:laughing:

 

[Chesire Tower]

Hi again, TreasureTower

I've got to say that I'm getting decidedly strong P vibes (intensely strong, really) from your posts in this thread and elsewhere, while F/T seems less clear. What do I mean about strong P vibes? I mean the direction of your posts is toward expansion rather than narrowing down. When I do "type me" threads with J types, there's a pretty clear sense of "Ok, here are my thoughts about type, is this X or Y? Oh, you think it's X? Well I can see X. Let's move on to this other issue, is it A or B?" With P types, it just... goes in a much less directed way.

Looking at your exchange here with @Aquarian. She got uncomfortable because she didn't think you were treating her words in the way that she thought you should treat them. That shows an investment in an existing structure on her part (the structure that she has in her mind), and expectations about how she and others ought to treat that structure. That is classic J right there, and a great example of INFJ, to be even more specific. I don't see that in your posts. I see divergence from structure.

Ok, so if you are an INTP, how do we explain your relationship with Fe? Well, first, I'd point out that your scores on the function test show a much, much stronger preference for Ti and N in general than for Fe. Fe was way down that list. So do you really have "such high Fe"? (Also should mention, in that same thread, @bearotter mentioned that he felt a kindred connection with you, and I've always picked up NTP vibes from him.)

What I see happening is that, if you are (as I see it) a female T type, you show the same general trend/pull toward being less "stereotypically T" than a male T type would be. As you might know, there is a consistent gender bias in the F/T dimension, and some evidence that this is related to biology. If you are an INTP, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that you have more awareness of other people's feelings and place a greater emphasis on being open to feelings than a male INTP might show. But this level of Feeling would be much less than a female F type (who tend to be the most F of the Fs).

But what about all of the descriptions of INTPs being emotionally detached and lacking in emotional expression? While I do tend to feel very awkward in new situations - being an IN; when I do feel comfortable with people; they have described me as "a lot of fun", "charming", "caring", "warm" and "insightful". Is this true for the average INTP?

Also, on many of my tests; I have scored as an F about 45% of the time. And while female F types, might be "the most "F of the Fs"; I remember reading somewhere that INFJs were "the least F of the NFs". . . so . . .

 

[Chesire Tower]

For @Sweetish

"INFJ Inquisition"

 

[Chesire Tower]

@TreasureTower

maybe you're a mysterious creature from the deep blue ocean??

Anyways, I figured out my type in the similar situation by understanding what my life goal is (I told you this already), and that is was humanity-related. The INTP I know really well would much rather have a fulfilling job and live comfortably. I don't mean to generalize here, but in my experience these life goals are very very different.

Yeah, that's very interesting. I may not think about humanity on a daily basis, but no question, I would love to make the world a better place. I don't know how much you know about my spiritual practice, Nichiren Buddhism, but the idea is based on this concept referred to as "human revolution"; which basically mean that by creating the person we want to be; we can change the world, or something like it.

So, while I do want to do my part to serve humanity: ie. the WWF link in my sigline; I want to do it creating some novel theory the revolutionizes the world - preferably in an ingenious work of art of literature. 'K, off to take my humble pills now. :tongue:

You should remember @TreasureTower that when @Teybo says what he does, he's not necessarily talking of a T-dominant. He's in general speaking of the dichotomies.
The description of the INTP as unlively etc is probably assuming the T-dominance POV.

You probably fit a good portion of both the F and the T end of the dichotomies based on your descriptions, so that's what's going on here. Aka, "moderate" on the F-T dimension.

Yeah, that's the main basis for my confusion. I don't fit INFP - too T; I don't fit INTJ - not enough F; so, I am stuck between INTP and INFJ because they are both INXX and both utilize Ti-Fe. I just think that I am too much of a thinker; to be your average feeler and conversely, too much of a feeler, to be your average thinker.

 

[Chesire Tower]

@TreasureTower

I think the biggest issue is people with marginal preferences on the dichotomies look very little like what you'd expect the doms/infs to look. Like, why would someone who is INFP with P strong and F-T preference slim, and N-preference HIGH, and high introversion look like a Fi-dom rather than Ni-dom? Likely not.

Assuming roughly balanced but clear preferences I could see a case for INFP with P measuring mostly outward orientation being observably more Ne-like (their observable outlook rather than their inner, possibly secretly held, identity of Fi, would possibly be perceptive, seemingly receptive to new perspectives outside, more to compensate for their lack of interest in objective judgment).

Are you suggesting that I may be an INFP? I looked at the descriptions on Personality Junkie and I related far more to INFJ and even INTP, than I did INFP. In fact, the site compares and contrasts INFPs with INFJs and that made it abundantly clear to me that INFJ fit me far better than INFP. I also get INTP a little more often than INFP but on a couple of really complex and thorough tests; I had a very clear preference of INFJ. I also completely relate to Ni. I much prefer to understand one thing ins depth, then many things in depth.

 

[Chesire Tower]

My only problem with using the 4 letter system alone, @Teybo, is that is was simply created as a shorthand way of stating their dominant functions. Stating/typing ENTP is easier than Ne dom, Ti aux, for example.
So one of the biggest inaccuracies I discovered was in my own typing. I'd get INTP all the time because of the T vs F bias and the J vs P bias. I have a heavy Ti (common among E5's) and I'm typically "non-judger" because I'm not a very judgemental person, nor am I "tidy".
So I'd get INTP on the 4 letter typing. Only when I looked at my JCF results did I get anywhere near INFJ.

And if you look at @TreasureTower's results, that stack just says INTP. Plainly. Ti lead, Ne fairly close, Si right behind and Fe down below. That's classic INTP function stack. Now, unless there was an excess of bias of manipulation in the test (and lets be honest, we've all done once or twice), that to me is good amount of evidence towards INTP.

Twitch

Well, you be right but the rest of your post describes me to a T. Half the time I get INTP and the other, INFP. I don't think this type of test is really all that useful. On the vast majority or tests; I have pretty much a dead even T/F split and a very close J/P with higher P but after reading this article, I relate much stronger to J. And if you remember, the test did say that I could either be an INTP, INFJ or an ENTP but; that one doesn't fit due to both inferior function and extroversion.

At any rate, when I chose my E type, I wasn't a 100% sure about it either. I am now because I decided to wear it for awhile and I realized that it fit. I have already tried on INFP and INTP and am not convinced that either fits; so I will now try INFJ and see how it feels over time. I've realized that that is the only way, I can possibly know for sure. If I had waited to choose my E type when I was 100% certain; I still would be clueless about that. This is my process and I can only explain after the fact - if even then. All I know, is that unlike putting down a mortgage, I can always change my mind. I might wind up sticking with it or I may go back to INTP, but if I do that now; I will always be unsure.