[Chesire Tower]

@TreasureTower, you're convinced you're an INFJ and I am increasingly of the perspective that you're not.

As for this dialogue, for me it's like the words get all slippery and I don't have the energy to pick it apart at this point. I will say that I feel quite strongly that you're subtly misusing what I wrote, a sort of shading from Ni into Ti like a sort of shell game sleight of hand, too quick to see, and I really wish you wouldn't use it to justify your typing. I'd be happy to be wrong about the typing but I'd prefer no to have my words subtly misused like that.

I know you don't have any bad intentions but I really don't like this situation and I apologize for getting involved with this thread in the first place - I really should have known better.

I'm really sorry that you feel that way. It was my honest belief that not only was I not misusing your words, but that the words that you used in that previous thread; really spoke to me now, if not at the time they were written. I wasn't intending to use your words like some weapon to convince you of anything. I felt that I really understood and related to them at a very deep level. I sincerely apologise if I failed in my utmost attempt to communicate that to you in that way.

And FWIW, I am not convinced of anything other than what I was when I started this thread: That I am either an INFJ or an INTP. It does me absolutely no good trying to "convince" you or anyone else of what my type is. Where would that get me? I posted this thread to gain self-knowledge. If what you are saying is correct and all I am seeking is some kind of validation; then this entire thread would be a complete sham, wouldn't it? After all, I already posted in another thread that I completely related to the Personality Junkie description of INFJ and no one questioned it, I might add; so based on that, there would have been no point to making this thread in the first place.

The additional reasons that I posted your quotes from this thread is that - despite scanning that entire thread for that elusive quote - I was sadly unable to locate it. I know I read it but at the moment; the thread where you posted it in, escapes me. When I came across posts of yours that I considered to be just as explanatory that I could totally relate to; I didn't see any harm to posting them in this thread. To be perfectly honest; I still don't, but if doing that upsets you this much; than I have no choice but to refrain.

I think 'though, that the reason you consider what I did to be objectionable; is solely based on a misunderstanding of my intention for doing so. I swear to you; that I did not do it, to "justify" anything, and I am not trying to justify anything in this post; other than your misperception of my intention to "justify" as opposed to gaining further understanding of what my type is.

See, I don't see the point of doing what you have accused me of. I am not in any way, shape or form; treating my quest to type myself accurately, as some shady lawyer trying to win a case. Yes, I do do that sometimes in certain threads where that is not only appropriate but it logically makes sense to do so. I have way too much respect for both myself and you; to ever do anything that underhanded and well . . . nonsensical as that would be to me.

Furthermore, had you not specifically requested that I attempt to find that quote; it would have never even occurred to me, to repost any of your quotes in this thread. I felt that by failing to find the exact source, of that quote of yours; that I would be both disappointing you and myself and I believed, that posting something comparable; was better than failing to come up with nothing at all.

So, yes now; I am definitely trying and hopefully have convinced you of something. That you have wrongly misconstrued why I did what I did. That, and ONLY that; will I "justify" to the ends of the earth. I may not as yet have figured out my type but I am the only one, who can ever know the "why" of doing what I do.

:sad:

 

[Sweetish]

Guys, why are you complicating things.

Enneagram 5 typically seems like a Ti-dom due to the innate qualities of ennea 5's.

Stop it. This is needless.

*waves at @TwitchdelaBRAT* Please, would you consider offering some insight? I, for one, would really appreciate it.

 

[Rather Unusual]

Guys, why are you complicating things.

Enneagram 5 typically seems like a Ti-dom due to the innate qualities of ennea 5's.

Stop it. This is needless.

You stop it. If this person is confused over her type then oversimplifying it with some ignorant and misleading generalisation is not going to help anything.

 

[Kizuna]

The additional reasons that I posted your quotes from this thread is that - despite scanning that entire thread for that elusive quote - I was sadly unable to locate it. I know I read it but at the moment; the thread where you posted it in, escapes me.

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151459-ti-vs-ni.html

ain't that the one? post #4?

 

[Kizuna]

Enneagram 5 typically seems like a Ti-dom due to the innate qualities of ennea 5's.

I agree with you on this point, this has been the cause for my mistyping as well. However, I also see how it can be very difficult to understand yourself when you are torn between reason/logic and just knowing, being detached/cool and HIGHLY empathetic... It's a Ti/Fe issue.

 

[Chesire Tower]

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151459-ti-vs-ni.html

ain't that the one? post #4?

No, but thanks for trying anyway.
@Sweetish and @Rather Unusual; honestly; all I am here for is to figure out whether I am an INFJ or an INTP. I certainly have no intention of starting a war or anything.

:happy:

 

[Chesire Tower]

I agree with you on this point, this has been the cause for my mistyping as well. However, I also see how it can be very difficult to understand yourself when you are torn between reason/logic and just knowing, being detached/cool and HIGHLY empathetic... It's a Ti/Fe issue.

Yes, this! Finally, someone has totally nailed down my dilemma.

 

[sworm09]

I think a lot of INFJs run into this issue. Like someone above said, Ti tends to scream really loud in certain situations, especially if you're a more academic type.

Yet the inherent difference between INTP and INFJ is what's dominant. I'll use an example to explain to the best of my ability. Let's say an INFJ and an INTP both get into an argument with someone. An INTP would immediately check to see if what the other person is saying is logical or accurate. If not, an INTP would readily dismiss it and move on. So if you were to call an INTP stupid, he'd probably see if it makes sense, and if it doesn't he'll dismiss it or rip the argument to shreds.

On the other hand an INFJ in an argument would begin by looking beyond what was said. They'll look beyond the words in order to get an abstract idea of the underlying concept from which the argument is based. INTPs look at the argument on a logical basis, INFJs look PAST the argument into what was really meant. So if you were to call an INFJ stupid, they'd want to understand the larger meaning behind you calling them stupid. This is why INFJs are prone to taking everything seriously; everything is connected to something else. You calling them stupid may be seen by them as a symptom of everything that's wrong with their lives. To them singular events are representative of larger things going on in the background. That's how INFJs look at things.

Now when an INTP is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Si to hold onto the conclusion that he came to. You call an INTP stupid, he disproves it, and he holds onto that information. If anyone calls him stupid again, he'll automatically know that this isn't the case, due to past experience.

When an INFJ is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Ti to look at the intuitions provided earlier. You call an INFJ stupid, he takes it to mean something deeper about himself or life in general, and then he uses his Ti to see which of those deeper implications is true or false. This is when INFJs mull over something fanatically. He may decide that you called him stupid because he isn't capable of understanding how other people think, thus a symptom of the human tendency not to understand others that are different. If Ti checks it out, the INFJ has pulled a huge, universal truth out of a simple event. That's both a blessing and a curse. On one hand INFJs have the ability to pull wisdom from simple, everyday events. On the other hand it's very easy for an INFJ to jump to conclusions with little info to back it up. For example if someone gives me a funny look my Ni will jump to the conclusion that that person hates me and then to the conclusion that I'm socially inept. That raises emotional problems and mood swings.

Excuse me if this is just a dumb example, but that's a good way to check the difference. To put it shortly, INTPs are much less likely to mull over something than an INFJ would. If it doesn't make sense to an INTP, he'll usually move on. An INFJ will focus on an issue for years, from numerous perspectives, drawing numerous implications from it.

 

[Kizuna]

Yes, this! Finally, someone has totally nailed down my dilemma.

In my experience Ti-doms don't seem to be tormented by this dichotomy, Ti is a very chilled out, cool function, whereas Fe is FIRE and PASSION and (not in the sexual sense lol) When Ni dominates the rest of the psyche, Fe is cooled down a bit (as compared to Fe-doms).

I can literally feel myself being filled up with energy every time I touch on my passions - understanding and helping human beings.

 

[Kizuna]

On the other hand it's very easy for an INFJ to jump to conclusions with little info to back it up. For example if someone gives me a funny look my Ni will jump to the conclusion that that person hates me and then to the conclusion that I'm socially inept. That raises emotional problems and mood swings.

oh yes... this paranoia is certainly part of who I am, although I usually dismiss such "signs" because it is a huge burden to take them all so seriously and ponder... and ponder... It has only been a year, I guess, that I finally learned what many others took for granted, namely that "haters gonna hate", and that it is their problem, not mine. They are the ones projecting their own insecurities on others, I only happen to be on the receiving end of such projections because I represent some kind of concept that they repress or dislike in themselves. Always had people to hate me for no reason, just from looking at me the very first time, and I don't necessarily look like a murderer

 

[Chesire Tower]

I think a lot of INFJs run into this issue. Like someone above said, Ti tends to scream really loud in certain situations, especially if you're a more academic type.

Yet the inherent difference between INTP and INFJ is what's dominant. I'll use an example to explain to the best of my ability. Let's say an INFJ and an INTP both get into an argument with someone. An INTP would immediately check to see if what the other person is saying is logical or accurate. If not, an INTP would readily dismiss it and move on. So if you were to call an INTP stupid, he'd probably see if it makes sense, and if it doesn't he'll dismiss it or rip the argument to shreds.

On the other hand an INFJ in an argument would begin by looking beyond what was said. They'll look beyond the words in order to get an abstract idea of the underlying concept from which the argument is based. INTPs look at the argument on a logical basis, INFJs look PAST the argument into what was really meant. So if you were to call an INFJ stupid, they'd want to understand the larger meaning behind you calling them stupid. This is why INFJs are prone to taking everything seriously; everything is connected to something else. You calling them stupid may be seen by them as a symptom of everything that's wrong with their lives. To them singular events are representative of larger things going on in the background. That's how INFJs look at things.

Now when an INTP is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Si to hold onto the conclusion that he came to. You call an INTP stupid, he disproves it, and he holds onto that information. If anyone calls him stupid again, he'll automatically know that this isn't the case, due to past experience.

When an INFJ is finished arguing for the day, he'll use his Ti to look at the intuitions provided earlier. You call an INFJ stupid, he takes it to mean something deeper about himself or life in general, and then he uses his Ti to see which of those deeper implications is true or false. This is when INFJs mull over something fanatically. He may decide that you called him stupid because he isn't capable of understanding how other people think, thus a symptom of the human tendency not to understand others that are different. If Ti checks it out, the INFJ has pulled a huge, universal truth out of a simple event. That's both a blessing and a curse. On one hand INFJs have the ability to pull wisdom from simple, everyday events. On the other hand it's very easy for an INFJ to jump to conclusions with little info to back it up. For example if someone gives me a funny look my Ni will jump to the conclusion that that person hates me and then to the conclusion that I'm socially inept. That raises emotional problems and mood swings.

Excuse me if this is just a dumb example, but that's a good way to check the difference. To put it shortly, INTPs are much less likely to mull over something than an INFJ would. If it doesn't make sense to an INTP, he'll usually move on. An INFJ will focus on an issue for years, from numerous perspectives, drawing numerous implications from it.

Okay, well what I would do in that situation would be entirely context dependent. If I was having an argument about an isolated subject on PerC for example; with someone I basically had no real connection with; than I would definitely relate to the Ti example and apply logic to it and not sweat it too much. However, if the person who called me "stupid"; was someone who's opinion I valued - especially anyone I had any meaningful type of connection with at all; then the Ni example would be much more applicable.

When my emotions are not engaged; I freely and coolly use Ti logic. When my feelings are involved; that doesn't work because, I am a very emotional person -even though, I do my best to hide any negative emotions - assuming I actually know what I'm feeling. I frequently don't know what I'm feeling at the time it is happening; if I'm feeling extremely emotional about something. Usually what would happen to me in that situation is I would feel somewhat disoriented and experience some kind of cognitive dissonance.

When I eventually made sense of what had taken place and my subsequent reaction to it; then I would in all likelihood drive myself nuts over it. My point is that my feelings for the person totally influence my perception of the situation. The deeper connection I have with a person; the less I am able to be objective and detached. However, I will eventually process everything and make sense of it. I will see things in perspective and connect the dots. I will utilise Ti logic to logically evaluate the other person's behaviour and come to the conclusion that what they said was not only inaccurate but mean. calling a person "stupid" as opposed to an idea is morally unjustifiable - especially in a close relationship. The very fact that they have not only crossed an ethical line; ipso facto invalidates their opinion on that basis alone. If I then find their opinion to be illogical as well; then it further confirms things for me. If their opinion of me were to have some basis in reality; I would take it into account and try to learn from it but because the person crossed an ethical line; they would cease to be a person who I could take seriously.

My point is that I judge people on both an ethical and logical basis. I would probably trust them more if they were less logical and more ethical; than the other way around but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't bother me or haunt me since I can be very sensitive. I use Ti, because as a 5; I view knowledge as power and as a 4 wing; I can be deeply affected by other people.

 

[Chesire Tower]

In my experience Ti-doms don't seem to be tormented by this dichotomy, Ti is a very chilled out, cool function, whereas Fe is FIRE and PASSION and (not in the sexual sense lol) When Ni dominates the rest of the psyche, Fe is cooled down a bit (as compared to Fe-doms).

I can literally feel myself being filled up with energy every time I touch on my passions - understanding and helping human beings.

Yes, sometimes it feels as though my Fe and Ti seem to be at war with each other: wanting to do the right thing, and the logical thing at the same time. For example, I may be stubborn; as in I will stick to my guns, if I believe in something and it is important to me. But, if I am arguing with someone who needs to be right - basically logic and facts be damned. We've all met this person, I'm sure. :laughing: I will not press it because I have far better things to do with my time. However, I do struggle with my feelings about such situations because; disharmony makes me very uncomfortable.

So again; it comes back to the dilemma from your last post: I need things to be both ethical an logical and I am not happy if either principle is sacrificed. There is a definite schism between my thinking and feeling. I almost always know what is the logical thing and ethical thing to do in most situations but my emotions can sometimes paralyze me and incapacitate me from acting in the most productive way.

 

[Aquarian]

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/151459-ti-vs-ni.html

ain't that the one? post #4?

Yes! Perfect!

Notice in that quote (pasted below) that I name Ti as the function associated with crystal clarity for me, and that I contrast that with Ni, which for me is very specifically NOT about that.

Thank you!

Speaking as a Ni-dom whose Ti plays an important and distinctive role in a cycle of perception and understanding:

In my case:

Ni doesn't have words or word-based analyses for its perceptions. Its perceptions are very strong, but they often show up at the gut level. My conscious mind processes Ni perceptions as a body-based "feel," as images and/or as something akin to sound or smell or touch.

Ti is all about conscious understanding. Ti wants to bring everything into conscious view in an analytical way. When Ti is active, not only can I explain Ti insights in words or maps that are transparently accessible to my conscious mind - I have to do so. (explain to myself, at the very least, and often to others).

So where Ni perceptions take place outside of the conscious analytical mind, Ti lives in and "speaks from" that mind. Ni is like this huge bass-vibrating sphere with all these sensations inside of it, while Ti is conscious, crystal clear and very precise.

As Ni-dom/Ti-tert, I often find myself feeling something going on but unable to consciously understand it at first, and then it takes a while before I can bring it into analytical consciousness.

Ni perception doesn't require conscious understanding. At best, Ni perception can bypass the analytical mind and yield action responses at the reflex level, from the gut. At worst, Ni perception can yield sensations that are too diffuse (unsourced, imprecise in certain ways, etc) to understand as a guide for action.

 

[TwitchdelaBRAT]

Because I was beckoned by Ms @Sweetish, I shall enter my input. @TreasureTower You're an INFJ.
Your conundrum sounds excruciatingly like mine.
The crowd overwhelming is inferior Se making itself present.
Your desire for order and logic, but being overridden by the group/extrapersonal setting is proof of Fe over Ti in function stack ordering.
And that bodily disconnect you spoke of, very Ni dom. My mind will float into space away from my body if I'm not paying attention.
And being a 5, it just makes your desire for that Ti even stronger.

Sooooo, INFJ. 'Nuff said.

Twitch

PS: @Aquarian its not uncommon for an INFJ to come across as a Ti dom when writing because Ti often takes precedence as writing is an internal development process rather than an external one.

 

[Aquarian]

PS: @Aquarian its not uncommon for an INFJ to come across as a Ti dom when writing because Ti often takes precedence as writing is an internal development process rather than an external one.

My sense-perception on this one isn't about what is coming across on the surface here. Unfortunately I tend to pick up on stuff underneath.

 

[TwitchdelaBRAT]

My sense-perception on this one isn't about what is coming across on the surface here. Unfortunately I tend to pick up on stuff underneath.

I'm not saying its the surface stuff. I'm saying Ti is the dictating force in the writing. Therefore, everything is tweaked by the Ti, even the Fe in the posts is tempered by it.

Twitch

 

[Aquarian]

I'm not saying its the surface stuff. I'm saying Ti is the dictating force in the writing. Therefore, everything is tweaked by the Ti, even the Fe in the posts is tempered by it.Twitch

Except that what I perceive is the flow underneath the writing from the source (the person) - writing is the surface for me.

 

[TwitchdelaBRAT]

Except that what I perceive is the flow underneath the writing from the source (the person) - writing is the surface for me.

Ok, sorry, I was in "senser mode", (not a slander towards sensers, but I was operating on my Ti-Se heavily so as not to piss off or confuse my senser dominant coworkers/customers) and I wasn't "feeling" the posts (INFJ's get this, not sure if other types do too)...

I don't feel a whole lot of Fe or Ni in the posts, so @TreasureTower could be INTP. We need a few more viewpoint/interaction questions.

Have you taken a function test, and ignored the "possible" types but kept the usage results?
When someone you care about is hurt/distressed emotionally, do you sit back or immediately help them?
Do you finish other people's sentences?
Do you all encompassing memory or just from your viewpoint?
Do you collect all kinds of data are just that which pertains to you?

Twitch

 

[jdstankosky]

I think @TreasureTower is an INFJ.

 

[Chesire Tower]

Because I was beckoned by Ms @Sweetish, I shall enter my input. @TreasureTower You're an INFJ.
Your conundrum sounds excruciatingly like mine.
The crowd overwhelming is inferior Se making itself present.
Your desire for order and logic, but being overridden by the group/extrapersonal setting is proof of Fe over Ti in function stack ordering.
And that bodily disconnect you spoke of, very Ni dom. My mind will float into space away from my body if I'm not paying attention.
And being a 5, it just makes your desire for that Ti even stronger.

Sooooo, INFJ. 'Nuff said.

Twitch

PS: @Aquarian its not uncommon for an INFJ to come across as a Ti dom when writing because Ti often takes precedence as writing is an internal development process rather than an external one.

Yes, the body disconnect thing is the main reason I am leaning towards INFJ but the description on Personality Junkie is so eerily accurate, it seems as if it was written about me.

INFJ Personality Profile - Personality Junkie

Because of their strength of intuition, many INFJs report feeling like aliens in the world. One INFJ described her experience as a constant feeling of deja vu. Others report feelings of disembodiment. The fact is that many INFJs (and INTJs) seem to experience the world and their bodies differently than other types do. It is therefore not uncommon for INFJs or others to occasionally question their sanity.

I will give you an example: In a few day, I will be required to exit from a busy subway train during rush hour while I am carrying luggage. During rush hour, other people force their way into the train and prevent the people who need to get off from doing so - especially on the most hectic stop on the entire line. I have been agonising over this for the past few days, when suddenly it hit me: I can just get there before rush hour; then it won't be as terrifying for me.

Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

But a change comes over the picture when the importance of the object reaches a still higher level. As already explained above, such an assimilation of subject to object then occurs as almost completely to engulf the subject of feeling. Feeling loses its personal character -- it becomes feeling per se; it almost seems as though the [p. 450] personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. Now, since in actual life situations constantly and successively alternate, in which the feeling-tones released are not only different but are actually mutually contrasting, the personality inevitably becomes dissipated in just so many different feelings. Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next -- apparently, I repeat, for in reality such a manifold personality is altogether impossible. The basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the feeling-subject as an alteration of his ego, a mood, in other words. Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident, i.e. the original compensatory attitude of the unconscious becomes a manifest opposition.

(...)So long as conscious feeling preserves the personal character, or, in other words, so long as the personality does not become swallowed up by successive states of feeling, this unconscious thinking remains compensatory. But as soon as the personality is dissociated, becoming dispersed in mutually contradictory states of feeling, the identity of the ego is lost, and the subject becomes unconscious. But, because of the subject's lapse into the unconscious, it becomes associated with the unconscious thinking -- function, therewith assisting the unconscious [p. 452] thought to occasional consciousness. The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more 'depersonalized,' it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the 'nothing but' style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

When I am either under extreme stress or very upset; I can totally relate to this.