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Discussion Starter #22
Woah, detecting high levels of hyperactivity, you on meds?
I have an excitement for learning and, really, I'm not being hyperactive. I like to discuss but I don't like to come off as being mundane. If you knew me at all, you'd know it's usually fairly difficult to get me truly hyperactive.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Food honestly depends on the person. I can see your sister being especially sensitive because of Si, but that's a bit of a far cry and really isn't that important either way. I will say that trying new experiences vs. her keeping the same diet is a difference between your Se and her Si. Se seeks out new experiences, Si stabilizes experience.
I've also been excited about moving houses. My sister dreaded it, said she hated having to adapt to a new home. As I've gotten older, this has diminished a touch. Probably because, ya know, now that I'm an adult I actually have to deal with the nasty realities/details of moving that I didn't have to when I was little.

I can't tell you definitively if you're an INFJ or not, but at the very least, it's pretty clear to me that you prefer intuition and feeling (most likely in that order), and I have no reason to doubt your introversion. As for the last letter, I've pretty much decided that it is irrelevant. It's not in Jung's original typology and it seems to me that it's really only there because Myers' mom had noticed it before Myers actually created the MBTI system. It seems a lot more behaviorist and subject to environment than Jung's theories were, and modern MBTI technicians don't do a great job actually explaining what the letter is supposed to represent.
Ah, you're discussing Judging and Perceiving, yes? I've always just heard those two described in looser, sometimes stereotypical terms. "Perceivers are hippies, Judgers are uptight scrunches." Blah blah blah...

By the way, do you have any book recommendations? I have one, this one and it helped understand the functions a bit more clearly. Not sure how reliable some of its "testing" strategies are. But it did help me determine that I was Extroverted Feeling and most likely an Intuitive, but that wasn't for sure obviously.


Yep, that's a fairly classic sensation/intuition conflict. My mother is an ISFJ; I've had similar talks very often.
Could my conflict between Ni and Si possibly be because I had so many Si-doms in my life? I probably talk about experiences and past memories more than the average INFJ because that's what my family talked about, so I had to blend in with them. I also had a close friend for a long time that loved talking about her family experiences, she was likely an ESFJ. I wanted to "blend in" with her as well so I would talk about my past experiences to entertain her further, though this wasn't always my favorite topic. I enjoyed listening to hers more than I did telling my own. Same with my family.

Another thing I relate to. xNFJs have a (somewhat annoying) tendency to try and "fix" people. It's a combination of Ni and F I think--we see how their behaviors will ultimately impact them in negative ways, so we try to fix that before it happens. It can make us lose sight of what's right in front of us, which is generally why xSFJs are a lot better at being empathetic. They don't perceive those things, they just focus on fixing the problem right now.
Yeah. xSFJ's are probably better at accepting people for who they are than xNFJ's are. I'll admit, I've been called out on trying to change people's behaviors both to meet my ideals for them and for what I think would be best for them. I know when I do it too.
I have a horrible curse of being way too idealistic with relationships. I have that "dreamy" way of interpreting how people should be and get a reality check when they're not what I was expecting. I'll likely be forever single because of this until I can learn to get out of my head some. :)
 

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Ah, you're discussing Judging and Perceiving, yes? I've always just heard those two described in looser, sometimes stereotypical terms. "Perceivers are hippies, Judgers are uptight scrunches." Blah blah blah...
Yeah, it gets really annoying. Especially since my code is technically INFJ but I almost always score as INFP because my dominant function is perception. But yeah, this is why people think that MBTI is just a zodiac; it gets oversimplified and after that it's meaningless.

By the way, do you have any book recommendations? I have one, this one and it helped understand the functions a bit more clearly. Not sure how reliable some of its "testing" strategies are. But it did help me determine that I was Extroverted Feeling and most likely an Intuitive, but that wasn't for sure obviously.
Psychological Types by C. G. Jung (duh). At most bookstores, it's going to cost you about $20, but half.com usually has it for a good deal. I got mine for $7 (w/ shipping and handling).

Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Lenore Thomson. This one is a bit controversial and her model for the functions is a bit strange, but the approach she takes to talking about the functions is enlightening and she has some really good stuff in there about type and just being a good person based off your type.

Gift Differing: Understanding Personality Type by Isabel Myers. I myself have (shamefully) not read this one yet, but it's rather essential if you are going to do any reading about MBTI.

There are other writers, too; Marie von Franz, J.H. van der Hoop come to mind (these two immediately followed Jung: von Franz was his protege and van der Hoop was a patient of Jung's if I am not mistaken). These two are also on my reading list. :p

I've not read the book you linked to, but I will tell you one thing about Nardi. While I appreciate his work and I think it's rather groundbreaking, his view of the functions is that they are just that: function, conscious processes of the mind. He can be insightful, but in the end he is an empiricist and is interested in data he can collect. The Jungian idea of the functions, that they are mindsets or perspectives, not an actual process, conflicts with this, since there is no real way to empirically quantify them. Nardi can be helpful, but don't take his word as gospel.

Could my conflict between Ni and Si possibly be because I had so many Si-doms in my life? I probably talk about experiences and past memories more than the average INFJ because that's what my family talked about, so I had to blend in with them. I also had a close friend for a long time that loved talking about her family experiences, she was likely an ESFJ. I wanted to "blend in" with her as well so I would talk about my past experiences to entertain her further, though this wasn't always my favorite topic. I enjoyed listening to hers more than I did telling my own. Same with my family.
Any extended contact with a person of any type is going to shape you (especially if you're an Fe-user :p). So yes, I would say most likely. Talking about the past isn't necessarily Si in of itself, but being focused on that instead of the future would be a little more up that alley. (*cough* back in my day *cough*) When I was younger, I was a lot more focused on the past than I am now, partially for life circumstances and partially for the amount of S influence I had (literally, my entire mother's side is sensing except for myself, a cousin, and an uncle).

Yeah. xSFJ's are probably better at accepting people for who they are than xNFJ's are. I'll admit, I've been called out on trying to change people's behaviors both to meet my ideals for them and for what I think would be best for them. I know when I do it too. I have a horrible curse of being way too idealistic with relationships. I have that "dreamy" way of interpreting how people should be and get a reality check when they're not what I was expecting. I'll likely be forever single because of this until I can learn to get out of my head some. :)
I know the feeling of being too idealistic. And yes, it's the getting out of the head that's trick with that. Another reason there should be an INxJ support group.
 

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Give me an example of the kind of abstract concepts you like to talk about. Tell me the core truth of something.

ETA: I mean... check out this interview / this post.

David Bowie. Ni-dom. I thought lower Ni, until I watched more interviews.

The interview quoted in that ... is blah until about 6 minutes in, and then the Ni comes out in full force. Psychopomp is right -- Bowie has been waiting the entire interview to discuss SOMETHING like that. Something pure abstracting and remote and purely conceptual - the internet. The alien invading our lives. The symbol of rebellion and potential. Look how abstracting his language becomes. Look how the interviewer is clearly not understanding a word of it, is totally lost, and tries to bring him back to tangibles. Bowie is having none of it. That's Ni. Pure Ni.

Being creative is not Ni.
Daydreaming is not Ni.
Not being sentimental is not Ni.
Being intelligent is not Ni.

Ni is obscure, unattached, weird, symbolic, and impossible to relate. Ni art is Bowie and his Ziggy character. His music videos from the 1970's/80's where the audience thought, "Dude, what the hell does that even MEAN?"

There is a super low bar for "intuition" on PerC. You can cross it by not being a stick in the mud. But real INFJs are Bowie. And Yoko Ono. And people who are so utterly devoted to subjective impressionism that you catch them in a conversation and it turns into ... that.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Give me an example of the kind of abstract concepts you like to talk about. Tell me the core truth of something.

ETA: I mean... check out this interview / this post.

David Bowie. Ni-dom. I thought lower Ni, until I watched more interviews.

The interview quoted in that ... is blah until about 6 minutes in, and then the Ni comes out in full force. Psychopomp is right -- Bowie has been waiting the entire interview to discuss SOMETHING like that. Something pure abstracting and remote and purely conceptual - the internet. The alien invading our lives. The symbol of rebellion and potential. Look how abstracting his language becomes. Look how the interviewer is clearly not understanding a word of it, is totally lost, and tries to bring him back to tangibles. Bowie is having none of it. That's Ni. Pure Ni.

Being creative is not Ni.
Daydreaming is not Ni.
Not being sentimental is not Ni.
Being intelligent is not Ni.

Ni is obscure, unattached, weird, symbolic, and impossible to relate. Ni art is Bowie and his Ziggy character. His music videos from the 1970's/80's where the audience thought, "Dude, what the hell does that even MEAN?"

There is a super low bar for "intuition" on PerC. You can cross it by not being a stick in the mud. But real INFJs are Bowie. And Yoko Ono. And people who are so utterly devoted to subjective impressionism that you catch them in a conversation and it turns into ... that.
I cannot watch the videos as something really funky is going on with my browser's plug in that makes some videos suddenly crash. But yes, perhaps you are correct. But now I'm left with more frustration. I think some abstractions confused me and I'm getting pissed with the lack of examples of what REAL cognitive functions look like in people and how it presents itself. When reading on perceiving functions it seems the only ones that make sense to me is Se. The rest? No idea. Fe and Fi make sense. Te and Ti was a touch harder for me to grasp at first. But I understand now.

If I don't get this MBTI crap put to rest for myself I'm going to scream.
 

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I think Bowie is ENFJ and Yoko Ono is something else. Ive heard INTP. Just because someone is weird and you can't relate doesn't mean theyre Ni dom. ;)
 

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I'm getting pissed with the lack of examples of what REAL cognitive functions look like in people and how it presents itself. When reading on perceiving functions it seems the only ones that make sense to me is Se. The rest? No idea. Fe and Fi make sense. Te and Ti was a touch harder for me to grasp at first. But I understand now.
But that's still looking at external behaviors to type, rather than how your brain processes information. Anyone can act like anything at any time for any reason -- it doesn't mean they are this or that type.

The introverted functions are harder to grasp because they are specific to the person using them -- they are all impressionistic and abstract. So no one can describe Ni or Si to you, because they are both abstract and tied to individual perception. I use Si, but my Si is NOTHING LIKE the Si in my ISFJ friend. Yet, we both still use it. Reality is subverted through our Si, to create sensory impressions rather than Ni symbolic / conceptual impressions.

Actually, that's a good way to frame it: Si is sensory abstraction and impression, Ni is conceptual abstraction.

Doesn't help, does it? I'm sorry, I'm abstracting myself at the moment. :p

The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.

Your daydreaming and enjoyment of thinking about what COULD BE instead of what IS struck me as very Ne. Not necessarily higher Ne, but Ne in general. That's the linchpin of Ne: not seeing what something is, but how it could be more idealized. ISFJs are not beyond this -- it is highly common in them.

I think Bowie is ENFJ and Yoko Ono is something else. Ive heard INTP. Just because someone is weird and you can't relate doesn't mean theyre Ni dom. ;)
You are right, that does not make them Ni.

However, their interviews and body of art all have that detachment / wildly concept-driven impressionism to them, which is indeed Ni... and much more common in Ni-doms than in Ni anywhere else in the placement stack. (Lana Del Rey uses Ni as well, but as an ISFP it's less important to her than Se-aesthetics in her work.)
 

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@angelcat what about Edward Norton?
Bowie maybe.
Im still not sold on Yoko Ono
Norton does strike me as a Ni-dom. I'm not sure he's Fe, though... might be Te in there. He is certainly insistent on carrying out his vision to its absolute conclusion. James Cameron is another high Ni user, though he might be ENTJ. The fact that he patted Kate Winslet on the back after nearly drowning on TITANIC and then told her to get back to work speaks to high Te... maybe higher than aux. By in large, I've found the NFJs are more stylistically weird than the NTJs. It's the Ni/Ti ruminating.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.

Your daydreaming and enjoyment of thinking about what COULD BE instead of what IS struck me as very Ne. Not necessarily higher Ne, but Ne in general. That's the linchpin of Ne: not seeing what something is, but how it could be more idealized. ISFJs are not beyond this -- it is highly common in them.
I guess you're somewhat right on the extent I'm interested in what could be. But I'm quite immersed in it. For example, my extreme interest in Witchcraft and Paganism and what "could be" diverted me from the Christian beliefs that were shoved down my throat as a child. I had a tendency to question everything I was taught when learning about it. I never once fully agreed with my family's views on things but I would agree with them outwardly to keep the peace and I thought it was stupid to argue about it anyway.

Another "Intuitive" (I quote because it's likely stereotypical) is things along those lines, afterlife, aliens, etc. I often catch some people off guard because I want to talk about those strange things and I've noted that it makes people uncomfortable. I sense this quickly and much to my dismay, stop discussing it. But then people get offended when I "zone out" when you start talking about what your boyfriend said to you last night. I don't give two shits about your relationships. My sister says I can be rude in that manner, but I'm sorry. I JUST DON'T CARE.

Also, I'm always wondering if I'm actually Feeling dom/aux sometimes. I'm not affectionate with my family. My ISFJ sister is always saying things like "I love you," and constantly checking in with people's well-being and ugh... wanting to smother them with physical affection. I am uncomfortable with outward affection. I even wrinkle my nose when I see people kiss in movies or worse... in public. Yuck. When I was little I sometimes got chastised for accidentally saying things that hurt other's feelings. I do have a tendency to be a bit blunt with some people despite HATING conflict. Which is what made me assume I'm a Feeler. In my Enneagram post I was told I show strong 9 qualities because of my conflict-aversion but yet, when I'm upset, I create it. I hate crying in front of others. I view it as "weak" and I like to give off a tough exterior, but yet I sometimes find it impossible to hold it in. My emotions are so confusing to me, really. I feel things deeply and sometimes things I see in movies, songs, etc. can affect me but when it comes to sympathizing with others? Nah. Like one time my friend started talking about how her dog got put to sleep and started getting emotional with me I didn't feel anything. I did the whole Fe "Oh, I'm sorry..." type of thing but I didn't feel anything. Actually, I started worrying about if I'm some sort of heartless monster because my sister proceeded after she left to tell me how I should've done more. I even got an "Ashley, how can you be so heartless?" comment which struck me deep actually. I'm not heartless. At all. I'm not good at expressing my love for my family or friends, but you have no idea how much they mean to me.

I'd also like to note, it may be hard to type me honestly. I have anxiety (especially social) and depression. I was on medication for a long time to help control my emotional outbursts due to it. That can cloud typing as it causes my behavior to be erratic and not what's normal for me. I can't tell you a time when I didn't have it, either, because it's been something that has stuck with me.

I have another MBTI post here, as I posted a second one because last time I didn't get a decent answer. Might help. I swear to the Goddess, I will not stop until I put this to rest. :dry:
 

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Discussion Starter #32
The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.
Also, be patient with my Enneagram post if you so choose to read it. I have to make fun of myself some so I don't become too embarrassed, but I knew the only way I could get typed properly is if I was 100% honest and let it all hang out. I would never let a real-life soul outside of strangers on PerC see that damn thing.
 

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If we cant explain Ni then everyones view on it is going to be different lol.
The only thing we can go from is what Jung said i guess.
I went from the description on sociotype of IEI and it was all spot on except the poetry part
 

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I want to put this here, because it's about Si:

It is essential to consider that Si is never rational thought, but PERCEPTION of what is. MBTI changed Si into something about tradition and the past, but Jung meant Si to mean Abstraction of Sensation. Namely, that in the perception of all sensory input, the Si would warp it all heavily through their psyche into something unrecognizable from objective reality, in order to fit into their subjective private world.

Just as Feeling is bound to disturb Thinking, objective Intuition is bound to disturb this subjective private world by injecting wild possibility into it. The Si, then, is bound to struggle to handle or to positively interpret possibility, and to see it as a monstrous thing sent to disturb that private world.

Now, on a philosophical level, the Si might LIKE the idea of possibilities or of randomness, and might embrace progressive ideas as part of their private world view. I am talking, then, about something more mundane... like choosing which college to attend. At such a crossroads in life, the possibilities are endless and this would inevitably trouble or paralyze the Si, who comprehends how much this grey field of possibility is bound to upturn the dreamy fairy tale of life.

As the Si gets older, that fairy tale private world only gets more and more subjective and out of step with the actual world. This makes more and more possibilities seem undesirable and morbid to them. There are, of course, plenty of cases of eccentric and quirky Si-doms who seem to embrace 'weird' things, but again this is not what I mean. They've incorporated these into their private world, and might rather enjoy being that rebellious old lady. Again, it is real possibility in their life that can disrupt them... something or anything that is set to disrupt that world (whatever it may be) that they have built up through their psyche. These disruptions are seen as quite dark and disgusting... though, since we cannot easily tell what that person's psyche has built up as 'real' within their private world, we cannot easily say what will disrupt it.

An example might be that quirky, awesome biology teacher you have that seems like she is out of a movie or a novel, being so eccentric and committed to the out-of-touch and charming private world she has built around her. The school administrators, however, are trying a new program and want to clear out her classroom and relocate her, now as an English teacher. This would be deeply distressful and troubling to her... where a dominant Ne would revel in the possibilities that this disturbance might open to them.
And this:

I cannot grasp why MBTI changed Si into [memory or past reflection or tradition]. As has been said, Si is subjective - and I'll add abstract and inevitably eccentric.

It would be, in and of itself, disinterested in tradition. It is associated with tradition, perhaps, because unlike Pe and specifically Ne, it is uninterested in CHANGE.

Tradition is about sentiment, right? So it would associate with Feeling.

Si is about comprehending reality through the heavy influence of the psyche on sensory stimuli. In essence, creating one's own reality.

Si, at an extreme, is Eleanor Rigby sitting in a house that should be in an episode of hoarders, watching soap operas and BBC period pieces or reading fantasy novels all day because objective reality means nothing to them, but whatever private reality strikes them best... that supports their mythologies best, that syncs with their psyche best, is preferred. Whatever they are, Si types live in a world apart.


Whenever people say 'tradition', all i can think of is that Te is formulaic and objective.. and thus might push proven traditions? Fe might push traditions as part of social propriety or moral control?
Si is not what most people think it is, nor what most people attribute it to.

And again, I offer you a way to start abstracting, I invite you to show me Intuitive -- and you don't.

I'm thinking... sensor.

Do you start abstracting / conceptually-driven conversations or do others pull you into them?

When and if you do so, what are these conceptually driven conversations about?

You talk about loving abstract things, but what IS abstraction to you?

I guess you're somewhat right on the extent I'm interested in what could be. But I'm quite immersed in it. For example, my extreme interest in Witchcraft and Paganism and what "could be" diverted me from the Christian beliefs that were shoved down my throat as a child. I had a tendency to question everything I was taught when learning about it. I never once fully agreed with my family's views on things but I would agree with them outwardly to keep the peace and I thought it was stupid to argue about it anyway.
Sounds like me as a child. And as an adult. Doesn't necessarily indicate type.

Outward agreement to keep the peace might be Fe. Or it might not.

Another "Intuitive" (I quote because it's likely stereotypical) is things along those lines, afterlife, aliens, etc. I often catch some people off guard because I want to talk about those strange things and I've noted that it makes people uncomfortable. I sense this quickly and much to my dismay, stop discussing it. But then people get offended when I "zone out" when you start talking about what your boyfriend said to you last night. I don't give two shits about your relationships. My sister says I can be rude in that manner, but I'm sorry. I JUST DON'T CARE.
The afterlife and aliens are not... specifically... abstract concepts.

How art is subversive and its grayness obscures it and not complete until you are absorbed into it, as Bowie would say, is an abstract stream of thought.

Bolded is Fe. Fi doesn't really care that much if other people aren't interested when it gets excited about talking about its interests. (Cue me not listening to FP friend going on for hours about stuff she loves and I don't, and her literally not noticing that I'm zoned out.)

Also, I'm always wondering if I'm actually Feeling dom/aux sometimes. I'm not affectionate with my family. My ISFJ sister is always saying things like "I love you," and constantly checking in with people's well-being and ugh... wanting to smother them with physical affection.
She's a Heart Enneagram. 2 maybe. I know an ISFJ just like her. I also know some cold, withdrawn, do not touch me ISFJs.

I am uncomfortable with outward affection. I even wrinkle my nose when I see people kiss in movies or worse... in public. Yuck.
Not type related. Not feelings related.

When I was little I sometimes got chastised for accidentally saying things that hurt other's feelings. I do have a tendency to be a bit blunt with some people despite HATING conflict.
Don't we all. I was a notoriously frank child. Still 99% positive I'm Fe though.

Also, two of the most blunt people I have ever known in my life were Fe-doms. ESFJs. Fe doesn't automatically = I care, or I'm nice, or I'm polite.

Which is what made me assume I'm a Feeler. In my Enneagram post I was told I show strong 9 qualities because of my conflict-aversion but yet, when I'm upset, I create it. I hate crying in front of others. I view it as "weak" and I like to give off a tough exterior, but yet I sometimes find it impossible to hold it in. My emotions are so confusing to me, really. I feel things deeply and sometimes things I see in movies, songs, etc. can affect me but when it comes to sympathizing with others? Nah. Like one time my friend started talking about how her dog got put to sleep and started getting emotional with me I didn't feel anything. I did the whole Fe "Oh, I'm sorry..." type of thing but I didn't feel anything. Actually, I started worrying about if I'm some sort of heartless monster because my sister proceeded after she left to tell me how I should've done more. I even got an "Ashley, how can you be so heartless?" comment which struck me deep actually. I'm not heartless. At all. I'm not good at expressing my love for my family or friends, but you have no idea how much they mean to me.
Thomas Cromwell in WOLF HALL is most likely an Enneagram 9 INTJ. You can be a 9 and be a feeler, or you can be a 9 and be a thinker. Enneagram doesn't indicate Feeler or Thinker in MBTI.

Again, I relate. I tap in much easier to entertainment than real people, although I do admit that when a friend told he she had to put her dog to sleep, I cried. Because it was sad. I imagined how she felt. I know what it's like to lose a pet. But knowing how to comfort her with more than just hand-patting and I'm sorry? That is not my area of expertise, I'm afraid.

That last line encompasses me in a nutshell.

(For the record, I type as ISFJ... but a few friends are convinced I'm INTP. =P)

I'd also like to note, it may be hard to type me honestly. I have anxiety (especially social) and depression. I was on medication for a long time to help control my emotional outbursts due to it. That can cloud typing as it causes my behavior to be erratic and not what's normal for me. I can't tell you a time when I didn't have it, either, because it's been something that has stuck with me.
My brother is a high functioning autistic with anxiety disorder on the side. It confuses his type, but he is INTP. Abstract reasoning, frustration at being unable to articulate his thoughts/ideas/feelings in tangible ways, and notorious for rabbit-trailing / going off topic.

I have another MBTI post here, as I posted a second one because last time I didn't get a decent answer. Might help. I swear to the Goddess, I will not stop until I put this to rest. :dry:
I'm inclined to say Sensor, overall. ISFX. There were a few times I got a sense of Se from you, but I don't know.

I'm going to tag @Psychopomp and ask him to read the first post. He may or may not answer, but he's probably the most knowledgeable typist on the forum and is pretty good at assessing individual functions at a glance.
 

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Norton does strike me as a Ni-dom. I'm not sure he's Fe, though... might be Te in there. He is certainly insistent on carrying out his vision to its absolute conclusion. James Cameron is another high Ni user, though he might be ENTJ. The fact that he patted Kate Winslet on the back after nearly drowning on TITANIC and then told her to get back to work speaks to high Te... maybe higher than aux. By in large, I've found the NFJs are more stylistically weird than the NTJs. It's the Ni/Ti ruminating.
A good example of an Ni-dom director is Darren Aronofsky. The end of "The Fountain" is pure Ni.
 

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Quick read through first impression: ISFJ with a little bit of Ne.

Again, where's the Ni in anything you say?
Idk. In my head? I dont know what Ni is and you said that we can't explain it so how would you know what it is and how would anyone know except Ni users? But i want to be SEI so thanks :)
 
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