[Allin]

I have read a library worth on enneagram and took tons of tests, but still doubt between these two.
So here are my self-reflective statements that almost alternate between 5 & 7. This quest is one of my too reasons for registering on this forum. Please help. Thanks in advance!

I think deeply down rabbit hole and can get obsessed, focused, thirsty for knowledge and info till i reach some great clarity and understanding

Mind processes tons of thoughts and notices tons of things at the same time, sometimes hopping from one thing to another, sometimes just connecting tons of distant dots in some new creative way.

Can have a great time spending all day reading up on something in bed and not need adventures or switching topics or activities

When too much time goes by in my hermit mode i only later realize how much i missed social contact, live discussions, some dynamics outside myself and my room.

Don’t like to host parties, my home is my cave, can be a hermit.

I am generous with my time with others and not stingy with my inner energy once i am talking to people, also i am a direct blunt honest open book person who is not secretive. After days of more social activity i do feel drained and cannot even pick up my phone, can get very physically drained maybe more than mentally.

Hard to switch activities or context, can sit and work or daydream in the same chair for hours with no breaks, hate breaks.

Can crave multitasking even though i am not that great at it. Can tune out easily when others talk something that is not interesting to me. Can be too easily distracted by incoming messages or someone typing or distant song playing

I dread planning fun activities or making lists. I do some planning for work only when really needed, but bad at planning for personal life stuff, fun or not

Explorer in a mental realm for sure. Multitalented naturally, good at a ton of things, learn super quickly. Inspiring visionary.

Hard time making close friends and keeping them.

Was shy as a small kid, later let others push me around through my teens for sure.

Even though i was a really shy kid i was always longing to play more with others and be included. Now i am definitely not shy and not perceived as shy by anyone.

Hate when people rush to make some half-baked conclusion or push me to come to quick decisions, like to think things through, strategically and in detail from all angles.

Quick thinker, often first to think of something clever when everyone else is stuck or when others think it will be too complex and needs lots of thought and work and preparation, i quickly offer 1-3 innovative and simple enough to implement solutions on the fly. No prep.

Detach and or process my feelings through my thoughts, may overthink things, past and present, but it feels better once i have intellectualized and articulated or defined the emotions and reasons for all the feeling processes that bothered me.

Can read the situation quickly and be very outspoken and assertive about important points that want to voice for consideration. Very confrontation-friendly. Not into conflict, but love confronting directly with no delays in person and either 1-1 or in front of a crowd if that’s what seems best or needed.

To some degree can admit that some fear of being not at the top of my game mentally or in terms of my domain knowledge and expertise is a motivator but not the key thing for me.

Fear of being deprived or unfulfilled or in pain is something i can relate to. Also fear being alone in this world.

Overly talkative hyper people exhaust me. Super friendly people are suspect or mostly annoying. Hate small talk unless something is really funny or shocking...

I can be overly talkative and hyper. People say i come off as funny, intense, expressive, strong, can be pushy, colorful, very passionate, enthusiastic attitude.

Can be completely quiet at a party or dinner party just observing unless something of interest to me comes up - then i jump in without a warning and contribute or even take over the discussion.

People think i am a typical social extrovert, because when i am out among people already I don’t mind being put on the spot or center of attention (don’t crave that at all but do well when it happens), i am good at reading people, especially their thoughts and motivations, less so when it comes to the extent of their feelings/ emotions. I offer quick reactions but the downside is that i have to really control myself to not interrupt people. People say my presence is very visible and absence is felt a lot.

Can stay committed and loyal faithful and dedicated to a fault, don’t get bored of the same routine, same places, same people 24/7. Don’t crave variety much in what i do, only in ways i go about some analytical tasks. I can work long and hard toward some goal without much need for instant gratification. It’s so hard for me to jump from one commitment to another.

Have some episodes of binging on either food or movies or whatever thing seems interesting and fun. Not really strong willpower but never had cravings to overdo alcohol or drugs or anything risky. Can definitely overindulge sometimes on simple things.

Always have been a bit clumsy and risk averse. I can stay back stay in and be lazy and slow (physically, in-terms of activity levels) and be hard to finally get out, and not feel like i crave to. I am never fidgety.

Want a lot and make it known loud and clear. Go on rants over stuff which always start with irritation then end with me laughing at myself and others and the other person people laugh with me.

Always feel like most others don’t get me and don’t wanna hear all my thoughts and knowledge because they wanna keep it simple stupid. Too tired of being told i am too smart for my own good and it can irritate or alienate people bc they feel they can’t keep up. I had to adjust and always keep it mind to be effective.

My mind goes so quick when i explain stuff that often people say i overwhelm them and leave them in the dust, they can’t keep up. Good at making analogies, metaphors, storytelling, good with words and linguistics, reframing things to make them relatable to different crowds. Really good auditory comprehension and info retention.

When i am my normal self, i would rather read about or watch a movie about climbing mountains or seeing some rare creatures than actually go do it; i’d rather read about doing something new than go try doing something new.

Don’t ever read manuals and barely listen to instructions. Figure most things out myself by just trial and error and often way faster than others.

I like to live in the now with reflecting on the past, not fantasizing about the future or making future plans. I like seeing and thinking through all the possibilities when analyzing or building something/ creating/ developing, but my mode is not future focused and not fantasy-prone . Grass is not greener on the other side, i am always grateful for what i have, small and big things, each moment. Not looking for bigger better opportunities and not concerned with missing out at all, ever. Can be super flaky with social commitments.

I am optimistic and mostly positive. I laugh at myself and make others laugh, don’t take myself or life things too seriously. I have many lows, but generally am resilient.

The time when i ran from pain and was completely scattered, irresponsible, almost reckless, escapist, was the time i was most depressed and lost and unhealthiest in my life, which could be an argument for 5 disintegrating to 7. Otherwise I don’t run from negative feelings or pain, i analyze them, process them, maybe even too much, till i find clarity and some way to move on.

If anything, I run from mundane chores and duties, and stupid rules and expectations placed on me that i have to go by, not from fear of pain.

There has to be reason and logic to everything, and objectivity is really important.

I never hesitate to “engage” and dont like to be invisible and am not, even if i wanted to be. Not worried about scrutiny too much, challenge-stimulated.

I hate when peoole jump conversation topics like it’s word association game and don’t come back to make or wrap up the initial point or reach clarity and understanding.

It’s not fun if it’s not some form of “cerebral fun” for me.

 

[Allin]

Anyone?

 

[Allin]

Pleeeease?

 

[Janna]

You don't crave variety or adventure, you like to go deep in the subjects you're interested in and rather read about doing stuff than actually do it yourself: I naturally voted for 5.

Why do you think that you might be a Seven? Because you're a highly visible person? Not all Fives are introverts, and not all introverts are quiet and reserved.

 

[Allin]

Thank you Janna. That’s exactly what I am getting at, that it seems like most enneagram tests and descriptions rely too much on some stereotypes of externally visible features like how social someone seems, as opposed to inner motivations, inclinations, and attitudes towards life, etc..
This can mean what you said about type 5, and also mean that for tyoe 7 all the super active shallow image is also just a stereotype.

The reason i still have doubts sometimes is because i often feel like i have a mind mostly of a 5 with a personality of a 7.
Mind-wise, perhaps the biggest 7-like thing in me is that i can go into a challenging situation on the spot and think up some really creative solutions without having the need to pull back. I am really quick on my feet and enjoy it, while a few of my more typical 5s friends or colleagues often quiet down and wanba withdraw and think it through more, and i am the one pulling them out of their shell to engage them on the spot, not wait till the next meeting or something.
I also have a ton of different talents and interests, and can pass for a jack of all trades (except i really am an indepth expert of some).
And the way i usually crack up myself and others is just really out there for a stereotypical 5. The more typical 5s are usually less likely to make fun of themselves or take on any kind of comedian role in the crowd.
That’s about it. All other stuff about 7s doesn’t apply to me.

 

[Figure]

Types 5 and 7 share a lot more in common than I think a lot of type authors have spent the time or made the effort to notice. Everyone is so fixated on what the types look like on the outside - which is ironic since the Enneagram is all about looking inward : )

One of the things that goes completely unmentioned on this forum is how both Types 5 and 7 deeply fear feelings of depletion. There is that cringe-worthy feeling of not having enough, not having the goods, not being sure you have what you need to make it, not knowing what you don't know (but anticipating it fearfully), being unprepared, unfulfilled, or simply dried up inside, and both 5 and 7 absolutely detest any kind of awareness of this. And both go to their Head to find a resolution to it.

Philosophically, both 5's and 7's are built around fears of scarcity and uncertainty. However, if you take away the defense mechanism of any type you see where they are forced to display courage differently. I think it would take courage for a 5 to let him/herself experience emptiness in knowing nothing and allowing him/herself to be filled by directness of experience, especially when it's coming from a situation that feels bigger than the 5 feels he/she is. In contrast for a 7, it would take courage to ignore the impulse to reframe something they don't want to experience or think about, and bear with the perceived misery of it, sticking with everything the good and the not so great.

That difference in courage stems from 5's deeply fearing depletion and depending on dissociation (and selective attachment) as a way to survive, vs. 7's running away from unpleasant realities to think of more exciting/stimulating/pleasant ways of reframing themselves as "being OK."

Not a big fan of prescribing types on questionnaire threads, but hopefully this helps a bit to validate that 5 and 7 are in fact similar, yet also have key differences that get muddled in type descriptions.

In my mind, the tell tale sign of type 7 is someone who shifts frequently from one thought to the next, resists dwelling on one thought too long, and impulsively reframes things their instincts reject to think of it in a more pleasurable (to them) way. I sense a bit more of this in your questionnaire than the energetically sterile, more austere type of interactions 5 tend to show.​

 

[Allin]

Thank you @Figure for the thoughtful and articulate reply!

I feel clear about the following not applying to me:
“In contrast for a 7, it would take courage to ignore the impulse to reframe something they don't want to experience or think about, and bear with the perceived misery of it, sticking with everything the good and the not so great.” I stick it out with whatever, the good, the bad, the ugly, and think of it all, process it, then deal with it, as long as humanly possibly (maybe longer). And that doesn’t make me miserable, it’s just my way of being and I am cool with it, as long as I reach some understanding about it all and maybe have some tentative way I see of dealing with everything.
I may appear enthusiastic and fun often, but I don’t seek constant stimulation or fun, and have no drive to run from painful emotions or situations. Instead, I sit and analyze them. That helps. I like that.
I don’t feel the need to turn everything sunny side up, although I can be good at it (like when I need to encourage my team at work). But I don’t have the urge to. I prefer to analyze and address the issues as gloomy as they may be.

And another part I am very clear about is in your last paragraph. I definitely brood way longer than I care to admit to others, because when I do they “wonder” about me... in conversations, too. When I feel comfortable enough to start discussing with a person something that interests or concerns me, I always get told I take it too far, like as if I have this unrealistic stamina to stay on one subject till the cows come home, while the other person (even if they initiated) seems to start gasping for air and always ready to swim up from the depth of our conversation and move on to something new or go do something outside.

I used to be really skeptical about enneagram, simply because I could not find my fit and because I did not see any clear rational justifications for the system. The type descriptions just seemed like some surface-like caricatures, which is something you touched on. So this time around I got more deeply into it, and considering different wings and instinctual stackungs and tritypes.

I know what you might mean about the energy you pick up on from me. Although I have a very agile mind that goes quickly nonstop, though, I seriously don’t like to hop from one thought to another. When that happens, I still go back to my original thought and continue thinking it, and I really enjoy that and don’t like interruptions.

The internal/ external descriptions that you mention really make me find myself as a 5 internally (until those few times you see what goes on in my mind come out) with an energy or personality components of a 7 externally (because that is what the world is likely to see more, too).

I’ve asked for some input here and there and read up more and more, and lately I most seem to identify myself with something like 5 with a counterphobic 6 wing, sx/so, with my gut fix following close second as an 8w7, and my heart type being 3w4.

I always get high scores on 8 (as high sometimes as 5 and or 7), followed with some gap by a 3.
If I were to consider my alternative combo I get sometimes as 783 or 7w8-8w7-3w4, it just seems way too aggressive for me. Too out loud out there for me, especially with sx/so.

That’s why 5wcp6-8w7-3w4 makes a lot more sense to me. What do you think? Thank you so much!

 

[Allin]

Ps: I know that many don’t believe in counterphobic and think it’s either just 6 or something like a gradient. And some don’t believe in counterphobic wings.
I also know many don’t believe into tritypes or the instinctual variants, and there are several takes or flavors of all that.
Well, somewhow it’s the only way I was able to find some tentative place for myself in the system.
Maybe I should have mentioned that I am an ENTP, and always came out as clearly ENTP and the closest equivalent of that in Socionics, as well. Never had any other results on any Jungian-derived tests since I first was given one at work by professional assessment they brought in like 20 yrs ago.
I use my Ti almost as much Ne, and sometimes they kind of interchange for a little while, but I am a definite ENTP (not INTP). So, it’s just enneagram that I seem to have inconsistent results or identity triuble with

 

[Figure]

Thank you @Figure for the thoughtful and articulate reply!

I feel clear about the following not applying to me:
“In contrast for a 7, it would take courage to ignore the impulse to reframe something they don't want to experience or think about, and bear with the perceived misery of it, sticking with everything the good and the not so great.” I stick it out with whatever, the good, the bad, the ugly, and think of it all, process it, then deal with it, as long as humanly possibly (maybe longer). And that doesn’t make me miserable, it’s just my way of being and I am cool with it, as long as I reach some understanding about it all and maybe have some tentative way I see of dealing with everything.
I may appear enthusiastic and fun often, but I don’t seek constant stimulation or fun, and have no drive to run from painful emotions or situations. Instead, I sit and analyze them. That helps. I like that.
I don’t feel the need to turn everything sunny side up, although I can be good at it (like when I need to encourage my team at work). But I don’t have the urge to. I prefer to analyze and address the issues as gloomy as they may be.

And another part I am very clear about is in your last paragraph. I definitely brood way longer than I care to admit to others, because when I do they “wonder” about me... in conversations, too. When I feel comfortable enough to start discussing with a person something that interests or concerns me, I always get told I take it too far, like as if I have this unrealistic stamina to stay on one subject till the cows come home, while the other person (even if they initiated) seems to start gasping for air and always ready to swim up from the depth of our conversation and move on to something new or go do something outside.

I used to be really skeptical about enneagram, simply because I could not find my fit and because I did not see any clear rational justifications for the system. The type descriptions just seemed like some surface-like caricatures, which is something you touched on. So this time around I got more deeply into it, and considering different wings and instinctual stackungs and tritypes.

I know what you might mean about the energy you pick up on from me. Although I have a very agile mind that goes quickly nonstop, though, I seriously don’t like to hop from one thought to another. When that happens, I still go back to my original thought and continue thinking it, and I really enjoy that and don’t like interruptions.

The internal/ external descriptions that you mention really make me find myself as a 5 internally (until those few times you see what goes on in my mind come out) with an energy or personality components of a 7 externally (because that is what the world is likely to see more, too).

I’ve asked for some input here and there and read up more and more, and lately I most seem to identify myself with something like 5 with a counterphobic 6 wing, sx/so, with my gut fix following close second as an 8w7, and my heart type being 3w4.

I always get high scores on 8 (as high sometimes as 5 and or 7), followed with some gap by a 3.
If I were to consider my alternative combo I get sometimes as 783 or 7w8-8w7-3w4, it just seems way too aggressive for me. Too out loud out there for me, especially with sx/so.

That’s why 5wcp6-8w7-3w4 makes a lot more sense to me. What do you think? Thank you so much!

Happy to help!

Yep, in your case it works out well because 5 and 7 inform each other, share both the Head themes, and there's that shared focus on avoiding depletion. If I was in your shoes and unsure, I'd honestly just flit between 5 and 7 and give it the time and reflection it needs to work itself through. If you are in fact a 5, it would be useful to understand type 7, because 5's can absolutely fall into 7-like attitudes and behavior under certain circumstances. If you end up being a 7, there is an absolute embedment of classic type 5 attitudes, as what Sandra Maitri calls the "Soul Child" type.

In my opinion, in the long run really grasping that 5/7 connection would be infinitely more helpful than Tritype, and maybe even Instinct.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Tritype as you continue reading, but what I've found is that Tritype can be very misleading. I see Core Type theory as one type to many people, whereas Tritype is many types to many people because its type descriptions are so externally-focused and offhanded. Kind of a "tail wagging the dog" approach. There are certainly some people that find it helpful, but lots more at least on PerC who stall out in learning about themselves, or worse yet learn incorrect things about themselves (lol) because they used tritype to (understandably!) rationalize things they want to believe and zero in on the evidence of it. This is all coming from someone who's more of an Enneagram classicist though, and that's just one school of thought.

 

[drmiller100]

from the peanut gallery, I think you are a 5.

5 is known to disintegrate to 7, so 7 is REALLY easy for a 5. Easy to see in themselves.

Likewise, as an 8, 5 is REALLY easy for me to live in. But my core is 8.

I think your core is 5.

I think tritype is a red herring.

 

[Nicholasjh1]

Thank you Janna. That’s exactly what I am getting at, that it seems like most enneagram tests and descriptions rely too much on some stereotypes of externally visible features like how social someone seems, as opposed to inner motivations, inclinations, and attitudes towards life, etc..
This can mean what you said about type 5, and also mean that for tyoe 7 all the super active shallow image is also just a stereotype.

The reason i still have doubts sometimes is because i often feel like i have a mind mostly of a 5 with a personality of a 7.
Mind-wise, perhaps the biggest 7-like thing in me is that i can go into a challenging situation on the spot and think up some really creative solutions without having the need to pull back. I am really quick on my feet and enjoy it, while a few of my more typical 5s friends or colleagues often quiet down and wanba withdraw and think it through more, and i am the one pulling them out of their shell to engage them on the spot, not wait till the next meeting or something.
I also have a ton of different talents and interests, and can pass for a jack of all trades (except i really am an indepth expert of some).
And the way i usually crack up myself and others is just really out there for a stereotypical 5. The more typical 5s are usually less likely to make fun of themselves or take on any kind of comedian role in the crowd.
That’s about it. All other stuff about 7s doesn’t apply to me.

I'm very much like this. Consider that you have a tri-type influencing how you act. Also I'm not an SP first 5, fives that are not SP first can show up differently then the traditional description.

Here is a instinct stacking of the different types of 5's out there. That may be helpful .

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/five-stacks/

 

[Nicholasjh1]

Thank you @Figure for the thoughtful and articulate reply!

I feel clear about the following not applying to me:
“In contrast for a 7, it would take courage to ignore the impulse to reframe something they don't want to experience or think about, and bear with the perceived misery of it, sticking with everything the good and the not so great.” I stick it out with whatever, the good, the bad, the ugly, and think of it all, process it, then deal with it, as long as humanly possibly (maybe longer). And that doesn’t make me miserable, it’s just my way of being and I am cool with it, as long as I reach some understanding about it all and maybe have some tentative way I see of dealing with everything.
I may appear enthusiastic and fun often, but I don’t seek constant stimulation or fun, and have no drive to run from painful emotions or situations. Instead, I sit and analyze them. That helps. I like that.
I don’t feel the need to turn everything sunny side up, although I can be good at it (like when I need to encourage my team at work). But I don’t have the urge to. I prefer to analyze and address the issues as gloomy as they may be.

And another part I am very clear about is in your last paragraph. I definitely brood way longer than I care to admit to others, because when I do they “wonder” about me... in conversations, too. When I feel comfortable enough to start discussing with a person something that interests or concerns me, I always get told I take it too far, like as if I have this unrealistic stamina to stay on one subject till the cows come home, while the other person (even if they initiated) seems to start gasping for air and always ready to swim up from the depth of our conversation and move on to something new or go do something outside.

I used to be really skeptical about enneagram, simply because I could not find my fit and because I did not see any clear rational justifications for the system. The type descriptions just seemed like some surface-like caricatures, which is something you touched on. So this time around I got more deeply into it, and considering different wings and instinctual stackungs and tritypes.

I know what you might mean about the energy you pick up on from me. Although I have a very agile mind that goes quickly nonstop, though, I seriously don’t like to hop from one thought to another. When that happens, I still go back to my original thought and continue thinking it, and I really enjoy that and don’t like interruptions.

The internal/ external descriptions that you mention really make me find myself as a 5 internally (until those few times you see what goes on in my mind come out) with an energy or personality components of a 7 externally (because that is what the world is likely to see more, too).

I’ve asked for some input here and there and read up more and more, and lately I most seem to identify myself with something like 5 with a counterphobic 6 wing, sx/so, with my gut fix following close second as an 8w7, and my heart type being 3w4.

I always get high scores on 8 (as high sometimes as 5 and or 7), followed with some gap by a 3.
If I were to consider my alternative combo I get sometimes as 783 or 7w8-8w7-3w4, it just seems way too aggressive for me. Too out loud out there for me, especially with sx/so.

That’s why 5wcp6-8w7-3w4 makes a lot more sense to me. What do you think? Thank you so much!

Actually now that I'm reading more of your messages you sound a lot like my 6w5 x.

 

[Nicholasjh1]

Also note that "disintegrate" to a 7 is now considered a misnomer. 5's who have lived in 7 long enough can start having the positive qualities of a 7. I think it is also more likely for a 5 with a SX or SO instinct to go into 7 much more often.

 

[Allin]

Actually now that I'm reading more of your messages you sound a lot like my 6w5 x.

this would be a definitive Noooo. I can hardly identify with most things that make a 6 a 6. The main reason I can relate to 5w6 is because I’m a real “systems builder” and I am for sure not a 4 (no need to be unique, not so in touch with emotions, and wouldn’t fit such a double withdrawn type.
I don’t have same doubts and neuroses as other 6s. I have worked with several 6s. They are way more doubtful and skeptical and less trusting of others and themselves. Also seem uneasy with many situations that I consider perfectly fine. By the time the 6s make sure they voice all their fears about the caveats of doing something, I am already creating at least 1 other construct of a different solution anyway.
I also move with more conviction and don’t doubt my decisions as much when I reach them as the 6s I have known.

 

[Allin]

I'm very much like this. Consider that you have a tri-type influencing how you act. Also I'm not an SP first 5, fives that are not SP first can show up differently then the traditional description.

Here is a instinct stacking of the different types of 5's out there. That may be helpful .

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/five-stacks/

I can relate and yes I read that site many times and others, which made me conclude I am sx/sp

 

[Allin]

Happy to help!

Yep, in your case it works out well because 5 and 7 inform each other, share both the Head themes, and there's that shared focus on avoiding depletion. If I was in your shoes and unsure, I'd honestly just flit between 5 and 7 and give it the time and reflection it needs to work itself through. If you are in fact a 5, it would be useful to understand type 7, because 5's can absolutely fall into 7-like attitudes and behavior under certain circumstances. If you end up being a 7, there is an absolute embedment of classic type 5 attitudes, as what Sandra Maitri calls the "Soul Child" type.

In my opinion, in the long run really grasping that 5/7 connection would be infinitely more helpful than Tritype, and maybe even Instinct.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Tritype as you continue reading, but what I've found is that Tritype can be very misleading. I see Core Type theory as one type to many people, whereas Tritype is many types to many people because its type descriptions are so externally-focused and offhanded. Kind of a "tail wagging the dog" approach. There are certainly some people that find it helpful, but lots more at least on PerC who stall out in learning about themselves, or worse yet learn incorrect things about themselves (lol) because they used tritype to (understandably!) rationalize things they want to believe and zero in on the evidence of it. This is all coming from someone who's more of an Enneagram classicist though, and that's just one school of thought.

Ok, now I see what the experts think of that tritype trend
And I admit I was trying on different options to see which fits more comfortably. That tritype idea in my case made my core 5 fit more comfortably.
But ok, let’s toss that out the window for now, cool.

Again the key thing that makes the 5 not fit quite perfectly is all the social awkwardness that I don’t really have, and the fact that I don’t always need to go detach for a while to come up with a well-thought-out plan. I am more reactive and quicker on my feet with no prep on average than the fives i’ve known and than what the descriptions imply.

So, if not for tritype, here come the following ways of rationalizing it:
1) I am a SX/SO five. Do you believe the instinctual variant stacking has a strong influence?
2) I am not a double-withdrawn 5w4 type, so that could explain why I am more socially comfortable(?) Do you believe that a wing is one or both and does it have a big influence?
3) I may have a counterphobic 6 wing, which explains me being more reactive and aggressive sometimes. Do you believe that a wing can be counterphobic?
4) Maybe this is just what all ENTP 5s are like.
5) I am a five that is well enough integrated into an 8, which may explain why I am more comfortable with confrontation and reacting on the spot (although I never lose my temper, especially professionally!). Do you believe in the integration lines? Can people integrate at earlier ages or does it usually happen later in life? What do the experts say about approx timing?

Thank you!

 

[ElectricSlime]

I definitely do not see 5 here. No signs of avarice, detachment, introversion which are the hallmarks aspects of Fives. I also don't see in what way you would most benefit from growing to 8, as you seem plenty assertive and action oriented already as you are. Fives are also known to engage in endless fine tuning of ideas to the point of even being detrimental in several cases (analysis paralysis issues, procrastinating on learning trivia stuff to reinforce the feeling of competency instead of tackling the actual problem head on), while you mention being known to brainstorm ideas in real time for people to act on them. Your overall description of yourself rings much more ID than Ego, the buzzname for E5 is typically "the observer" for a reason. I think it's telling you mention not relating particularly to either of the Five's wings which are 4 and 6.

1) I am a SX/SO five. Do you believe the instinctual variant stacking has a strong influence?

A five is still a 5 and a 5w6 Sx/So will always have more in common with a 5w6 Sp/So than any type of E7. That is why I advise looking for the Instinctual variants (if it really matters to you) after finding out your E type, as just like tritype it is too often used as bullshit rationalization that ends up confusing you more than anything.

It's funny you mention the Six's lack of trust in themselves as a rebuttal to being typed as one, while Five is arguably equally struggling if not worse when it comes to having the confidence to do things.

Here's an excerpt from the book Wisdom of the Enneagram:

Behind Fives' relentless pursuit of knowledge are deep insecurities about their ability to function successfully in the world. Fivesfeel that they do not have an ability to do things as well as others. But rather than engage directly with activities that might bolster their confidence, Fives "take a step back" into their minds where they feel more capable. Their belief is that from the safety of their minds, they will eventually figure out how to do things—and one day rejoin the world.

I'll have to look for the source and get back to you on that, but I remember an Enneagram author describing a Five struggling to get his driving license being a typical example of the type's issues as it struggles to deal with things that can't be covered by theory and require actual practice.

Anyway, forgive me for the scattered thoughts, it is pretty late. Hope this helps.

 

[Allin]

Hey Electric, I may be open to you saying I am some other type completely, but your reply made me think that I did not do a good job explaining myself.
Can we agree on this: I am totally ok with you guys dismissing my notion of enneagram and how and why I concluded something type-specific, but please take my own self-assessments as is, face-value, because it is arguably the best we have to go on for now.
I will tell you more about my traits and inner drives, flaws and strengths, with or without examples, in all honesty and authenticity, whatever it takes, as long it helps to get the core type right. OK?

Going point by point to address your comment now:
-Avarice (Yes and No): I relate to this only when it's described as coming from the sense of depletion, because I often refuse to commit to any plans or host anyone at the house (like ever if I could help it), because I am afraid of this depletion and all the demands the world puts on me. I feel this deeply. I do not, however, hoard my knowledge that much... sometimes greedy and secretive about it, but also willing to share, teach, and explain myself generously when someone wants to understand more about my reasoning.

-Detachment (also Yes and No): if we are talking about emotional detachment, then I relate completely. I may stay in the same room and not run and hide, but in the moment of emotionally charged situation unfolding, I have a super hard time listening to feelings, trusting emotions, mine or anyone else's, so I detach emotionally for sure (until I later process all the feeling/emotions in my cerebral way), and this is why some people thought I was cold and heartless sometimes.

-Introversion (mostly No): I an introverted extrovert. I relate well to how they describe us ENTPs who use Ti a lot as the more introverted extroverts. I need time to go hermit mode and recharge, and I do not initiate any social plans. I have a hard time keeping in contact with people and making new friends. I live in my head for a good chunk of my time and am ok with it. However, when others do see me, once you insert me in the situation more times than not I will act like a comfortably extroverted person. Unless there is nothing interesting, then I go and be a fly on the wall. In the crowd I rarely start up conversation topics, but I am great at contributing (when interested).
Also, not sure if you read all that I wrote before or not, but just to mention again, I was a very weak awkward kid, often picked on, mostly felt like an outsider, only child, lived more in my own head, was a total push-over, was often sick, wasn't as physically / athletically good as the others, so I always focused on school, books, knowledge. This applies to another part that you wrote later in your post, too. I started finding my "voice" and embracing confrontation more not till my mid twenties.

-How I'd benefit from growing to 8 (Yes): from what I understood, being an 8 is more than just being assertive and vocal or appearing strong/ opinionated... it's actually about being tough and being able to take control. I do not naturally take control. I can be very adamant about my opinions and what should be done, but unless it's my expert area stuff that I am pushing, I would never just try to start running with things. I could use this more right now badly (work and home). I always root for the underdog, I call for action, but I will I could get more of the 8's talents to really control, dominate, and skillfully navigate situations, people, and processes to successful completion. I am dedicated and work hard, but I am not domineering enough and not tough enough to take over and run with things. I hate telling people what to do. I mostly get them to do what I need not because they have to but because they want to. I do not have as much tenacity and resilience as the 8s, and you need all that to really control anything around you. What I am also learning that may be an 8 thing is to own my anger. For most of my life when others in my situations would get angry and furious, I would often skip over that phase and go straight to down and depressed. More likely to quietly cry on the inside than to scream. I suppose I could learn more how to allow myself to be angry and let that anger (when justified) fuel me, give me more energy and motivation to go and do what I need to do, not give up. More toughness IDGAF spirit could be great and empowering.

-Endless fine-tuning, analysis-paralysis, and procrastination (Yes!): these would be still my middle names if not for years of experience in commercial organizations. I am a scientist, but in an industry that involves guiding product development. I would not have been able to deliver, meet goals, and ultimately grow in my career if I did not find ways to temper these vices I have. I worked really hard on myself to be able to at least keep these tendencies at bay enough not to get myself in trouble.

-Brainstorming ideas in real-time (Yes): just please see how I phrased that in my earlier post, trying to stress relatively more than other 5s on average.

-Instinctual stacking: Point taken. By the way, I did not read about it in the context of being a 5 or a 7 or anything else, I just wanted to independently see which I identify myself with, and it seemed obvious to me then that regardless of my core type I seem like SX/SO. but totally cool with not discussing this part in the context of trying to find my core type.

-Id vs Ego: not sure how it rings, but I can see both, and identify a bit more with Ego. That's because when I do jump into a tense discussion for example, I do not go emotional, my words are well thought-out and my thoughts and where I wanna go with them will be totally under control, I just do it fast mentally, so don't always need preparation. That's difference from the impulsivity of the Id. I rarely ever go do or say rash things that I later regret. It actually took me years of "psyching myself up" to start embracing the possibly conflict-prone confrontations, and to manage stage fright, to stop dragging and just face it all (them all).

-Confidence to do things (Yes): I have it. I can think for a while and weigh all the pros and cons for a long time, but once I decide I don't go back, because by then it's more than well-informed decision. I don't doubt my thoughts. I do hesitate to take action sometimes, and I know that tendency about myself, so I always try to push myself to be more proactive. I do, but it's a conscious effort. About getting out and doing things in general, I could use some of that drive and energy from both 7 and 8, I guess.

-Observer (No): in literal sense I am more participant (nowadays anyway) than observer.

-The book quote (Yes and No): like I mentioned above when talking about my childhood and other things, I 100% agree and identify with the relentless pursuit of knowledge stemming from insecurities that I could not other things that well, as well well as the thoughts that I need to be very capable/competent to survive. I don't get out much and engage in a bunch of activities. I suck at that. Many times I went through phases when I was just stuck in my room and the world and life was passing me by outside somewhere. In terms of getting into it verbally with groups of people/ meetings/ work related stuff.. I don't shy away, no, but like I said before, when it gets emotional, I either literally or physically detach. With my mom, for instance, sometimes I detach both literally and physically when I cannot handle her intense emotional outbursts at me (she is great though and I love her dearly). I can never give her the emotional response she needs to feel heard. I can only reply in logical sentences till I either have to scream of run off, so I run off, and then more likely to feel like crying than screaming anyway. It drives her nuts, too.

-Driver license and other obstacles of mundane reality: yep, that example sounds like 100% me. I struggle with the every day physical aspects of life very much. I can sit in the same bad position for several hours or a day and only when I get up will I realize that I am hurting, I haven't eaten, I forgot to pick up some important stuff up, I dropped my glasses, blabla... and I have always been the one losing all the important shit and misplacing stuff. Missing deadlines is my Achilles hill, too. I got better at it for work, but with my family life I am hit or miss sometimes, which is no bueno Long story short, yes, I feel more theoretical and abstract than hands on and concrete. I've been told sometimes "hey come back to earth please!" for various reasons.

Looking forward to your thoughts and suggestions.

Is there a good free test I could take online that you could recommend? I took a number of them, but wanna know which would you suggest.
Thanks in advance!

 

[Allin]

speaking of tritypes, I really liked this read: https://www.personalitycafe.com/articles/47315-freudian-theory-enneagram.html
Is that moderator timeless still around?

 

[alessandro]

this would be a definitive Noooo. I can hardly identify with most things that make a 6 a 6. The main reason I can relate to 5w6 is because I’m a real “systems builder” and I am for sure not a 4 (no need to be unique, not so in touch with emotions, and wouldn’t fit such a double withdrawn type.
I don’t have same doubts and neuroses as other 6s. I have worked with several 6s. They are way more doubtful and skeptical and less trusting of others and themselves. Also seem uneasy with many situations that I consider perfectly fine. By the time the 6s make sure they voice all their fears about the caveats of doing something, I am already creating at least 1 other construct of a different solution anyway.
I also move with more conviction and don’t doubt my decisions as much when I reach them as the 6s I have known.

Hi,

6w5 is a real "systems builder" as well, probably more than 5w6. 5w6 is rather a "systems thinker". 5w6 sx/so are pretty cryptic types in terms of their behavior.

Core type 6 can swing to its w7 and disintegrates to 3, an assertive type.

In my understanding, a core type can never fully be only one wing, but will always be able to connect more or less to both wings. A 5 may not have much in common with w4 other than being withdrawn, but still somehow understands their language.

In everything you wrote so far, I do read a 5 component, but not sure if core type yet.