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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi everyone,
I’m very confused and I’d really appreciate it very much if anyone could help me resolve my confusion. Apparently I'm an INTP but I have many doubts listed (mentioned in the middle of this thread):

If you wanna know why I think I'm apparently an INTP
External Assessments: I’ve been typed online four times (time expenditure: 2 weeks conversation, and three description typings (reddit and IG)), took multiple tests (some several times, (however deleted most of them 2 years ago when I quit mbti), only have very few most recent ones) read online descriptions of the functions and their positions and even made 2 questionnaires for some family members to fill out to assess which functions I am using (though first lost and second problem with info source) so I made a two-question scale for F-T and Fe-Fi (had to keep it very short since my family is already annoyed enough with my questions about myself).
Results: Typed 4 times as INTP (one said if they were sure of something then that I'd be a Perceiver), function tests [Se<Si< Ne<Te=Fi<Fe=Ti<Ni] & [Se<Fe=Fi<Ni<Te<Si<Ti<Ne] & [Ni<Se<Fe<Si<Te<Fi<Ne<Ti] & [S<F<T<N] (last one is a bit confusing, though it assessed all 8 functions, (Sociotype website) did both tests, got the exact same result) mini scale results for F-T are (5,8,9,10 – 10 being logic) and (7,7,7,10 – 10 being Fe). This seems like INTP, right?

BUT there are many questions that confuse me:
  1. Fe grip? I don’t burst out in emotions since I hate showing negative emotions. I asked family members how they perceive me under stress and they say they don’t see me under stress. (I'd say I'd react to stress with paralysis/withdrawal/distraction. I come under stress when things don't go they way I planned them to go/lack of control) Or could grip Fe also be suddenly wanting to care for others and make everyone happy? Needing interpersonal purpose and affirmation? Then I might have Fe grip.
  2. Do I really have inf Fe? I may isolate myself for most of the time but I care a lot about the mental well-being of others. I’d rather not say sth logical if I know it will hurt someone. Or I’ll tell them but also reassure them not everyone is a logical thinker and their feelings are valid too. If I'm an INTP why do I get Empathetic Idealist in the Big Five test?
  3. INFP’s stereotype of living in their idealized fantasies of the future (basically me) (Fi dom? But when it comes to morals I care about if others perceive it as moral or not which would mean Fe>Fi (but is Ti really over Fe or Fe>Ti?)
  4. ENTP – would explain with trickster Fi why I have struggle seeing myself (though I think I know myself but I could be wrong). Would also explain why I barely have opinions since I can see many possible options. But I can't explain inf Si since I try to conform (even though I'd prefer not to) but out of fear of ostracism.
  5. Almost all of my favorite authors and fictional characters are guessed to be Fi doms (and some INFJs) (source: Personality Database). Why do I relate so much to them? Especially when I'm having a bad time it's me and my feelings and I over-indulge in them. Does this have anything to do with an Fi loop? (Just look at Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion but take away his focus on the past)
  6. My mother said as a child I was: wild, active, cheerful, disobedient, great at sports. Doesn’t seem like a typical Ti dom child to me. Could I be an sensor? Though I struggle seeing that since I’m so detached from my surroundings. But others say I look too strong into detail and miss out the bigger picture (inf Ni? Prob also why I struggle here. I'm hung up on the details. I need someone to help me see the sort out the details). But then why is my Se so screwed? I could argue for almost every type but I actually think mostly about INXX because I prob have either inf or trickster Se (or aux Se that is constantly left out because of looping).
  7. I asked my brother if I was more like Private or Kowalski from Madagascar. He said mixture of both, then that Mort fit better and then decided on Stu from Ice Age. This may seem like random information but I display sometimes very opposing behaviors (childlike, hyper,clown,annoying others to get reaction,naive,caring,dumb // contrasting another description of myself as reserved, scatterbrained, self-absorbed, critical, analytical, absent-minded, intelligent).
  8. Ti-Si loop? Haven't read much about loops but I don't see this loop in me(unless I misunderstand it)
  9. INTPs are described as searching for the truth but I don’t think there is any truth. In the end it all comes down to perception, in the end we truly know nothing. Rather I search for what makes most sense in the situation and produces the best outcome. (though I do have to mention that's the theoretical ideal but mostly I'm too absent-minded to correctly and quickly read the situation)
  10. If I go after the description of the inferior function (doorway to unconscious/suppress/shame/admire people who use it) I think of inf Fi but this would mean I'd be Te dom???
  11. I highly value efficiency in theory, but in practice I’m basically the opposite. Could this be inf Te? since the inferior position is described as the aspirational role? I struggle extremely with being productive, sometimes ending up not doing anything. Being able to realize what I'm planning to do is one of my BIG weaknesses.
  12. I think I stick more to conformity and repetitive routines then I think I do (sometimes rejecting new experiences/struggle getting out of my comfort zone). On the other hand I can't read through a structured list without suddenly going to the bottom and continuing reading upwards. Or my wish to be organized but usually living in a chaotic environment. But I need to plan ahead and I usually strongly dislike improvement. I highly question conformity, why follow rules just for the sake of tradition or normality? (though point 4- I question it, reject it but I don't act on it)
My question
How can I make sense of those perceived deviations? How are all my functions interacting with each other that all of this can be explained? Is the theory of mbti rather loose and the functions aren't as rigid as they are thought to be? Am I a regular INTP?


I'm very grateful to anyone who tries to help :D


Other personality type indications (optional but gives more insight)

I'm a very introverted Gemini ("why use gemini when astrology is not seen as accurate/reliable?"-> since your sign is given it allows deviations and it works in my case so i’ll use it) The entire duality of a Gemini's personality, being an air sign (dreamer) and self-centered. I haven’t read much about Enneagram since I’ll first try to close the mbti thing before opening sth else) But I guess I'm most likely Type 9w1 on the Enneagram (the dreamer // no desire or reason to feel angry//hating conflict) (or type 6, perhaps type 5 or 4 ). I was also diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (Aspergers) in case this affects something.

Some other extra info why I made this thread (optional)
Why I doubt the tests & perception of others
It’s difficult to assess me because I live basically inside my head, therefore most of me is invisible to other people, which leads a big part of my personality in the shadow (not to mention some people have an extremely biased perception of reality and might be very one-sided or inaccurate)
Why I doubt my own perception of self
It's all based on self-report so there is no comparison. I don’t know if I remember the usual or the extraordinary. My own perceptions of myself could be distorted by personal bias or lack of knowledge of self as well as over-empathizing special behaviors/thoughts and forgetting the usual. Additionally, the information that I read could be wrong or wrongly understood by me (haven't had time yet to read Jung's book)
 

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If you wanna know why I think I'm apparently an INTP
External Assessments: I’ve been typed online four times (time expenditure: 2 weeks conversation, and three description typings (reddit and IG)), took multiple tests (some several times, (however deleted most of them 2 years ago when I quit mbti), only have very few most recent ones) read online descriptions of the functions and their positions and even made 2 questionnaires for some family members to fill out to assess which functions I am using (though first lost and second problem with info source) so I made a two-question scale for F-T and Fe-Fi (had to keep it very short since my family is already annoyed enough with my questions about myself).
I think you will find the more you search around random people on the internet the worse your situation will get. If it really comes to it you can just find a certified guy to test you, or just read Psychological Types and/or MTBI Manual.


Results: Typed 4 times as INTP (one said if they were sure of something then that I'd be a Perceiver), function tests [Se<Si< Ne<Te=Fi<Fe=Ti<Ni] & [Se<Fe=Fi<Ni<Te<Si<Ti<Ne] & [Ni<Se<Fe<Si<Te<Fi<Ne<Ti] & [S<F<T<N] (last one is a bit confusing, though it assessed all 8 functions, (Sociotype website) did both tests, got the exact same result) mini scale results for F-T are (5,8,9,10 – 10 being logic) and (7,7,7,10 – 10 being Fe). This seems like INTP, right?
When I think of INTP I think of a general collector of knowledge and almost certainly into computers at a deep level.


BUT there are many questions that confuse me:
[*] Fe grip? I don’t burst out in emotions since I hate showing negative emotions. I asked family members how they perceive me under stress and they say they don’t see me under stress. (I'd say I'd react to stress with paralysis/withdrawal/distraction. I come under stress when things don't go they way I planned them to go/lack of control) Or could grip Fe also be suddenly wanting to care for others and make everyone happy? Needing interpersonal purpose and affirmation? Then I might have Fe grip.
I worry less about the less functions and more about the dominant functions. It really turns into a horoscope reading when you try get into it.

[*] Do I really have inf Fe? I may isolate myself for most of the time but I care a lot about the mental well-being of others. I’d rather not say sth logical if I know it will hurt someone. Or I’ll tell them but also reassure them not everyone is a logical thinker and their feelings are valid too. If I'm an INTP why do I get Empathetic Idealist in the Big Five test?
If you prefer to be isolated just for the sake of being isolated, then you are probably not Fe dominant or auxiliary.


[*] INFP’s stereotype of living in their idealized fantasies of the future (basically me) (Fi dom? But when it comes to morals I care about if others perceive it as moral or not which would mean Fe>Fi (but is Ti really over Fe or Fe>Ti?)
If you care about what other people think about your values then you are not Fe or at least not in the high functions.

[*] ENTP – would explain with trickster Fi why I have struggle seeing myself (though I think I know myself but I could be wrong). Would also explain why I barely have opinions since I can see many possible options. But I can't explain inf Si since I try to conform (even though I'd prefer not to) but out of fear of ostracism.
This sounds like a Ti thing though. Just wanting to accumulate things to think about without actually committing.

[*] Almost all of my favorite authors and fictional characters are guessed to be Fi doms (and some INFJs) (source: Personality Database). Why do I relate so much to them? Especially when I'm having a bad time it's me and my feelings and I over-indulge in them. Does this have anything to do with an Fi loop? (Just look at Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion but take away his focus on the past)
Yeah but you aren't a popular fiction author so this doesn't apply.

[*] My mother said as a child I was: wild, active, cheerful, disobedient, great at sports. Doesn’t seem like a typical Ti dom child to me. Could I be an sensor? Though I struggle seeing that since I’m so detached from my surroundings. But others say I look too strong into detail and miss out the bigger picture (inf Ni? Prob also why I struggle here. I'm hung up on the details. I need someone to help me see the sort out the details). But then why is my Se so screwed? I could argue for almost every type but I actually think mostly about INXX because I prob have either inf or trickster Se (or aux Se that is constantly left out because of looping).
The athletic stereotypes are ESTP and ISTP, both of which have Ti.

[*] I asked my brother if I was more like Private or Kowalski from Madagascar. He said mixture of both, then that Mort fit better and then decided on Stu from Ice Age. This may seem like random information but I display sometimes very opposing behaviors (childlike, hyper,clown,annoying others to get reaction,naive,caring,dumb // contrasting another description of myself as reserved, scatterbrained, self-absorbed, critical, analytical, absent-minded, intelligent).
You spend a lot of time comparing yourself to movie characters.

[*] Ti-Si loop? Haven't read much about loops but I don't see this loop in me(unless I misunderstand it)
Then don't bother with it.

[*] INTPs are described as searching for the truth but I don’t think there is any truth. In the end it all comes down to perception, in the end we truly know nothing. Rather I search for what makes most sense in the situation and produces the best outcome. (though I do have to mention that's the theoretical ideal but mostly I'm too absent-minded to correctly and quickly read the situation)
You sound like someone that read Socrates once and wants to say they are now the smartest in Athens because they know so little.......


[*] If I go after the description of the inferior function (doorway to unconscious/suppress/shame/admire people who use it) I think of inf Fi but this would mean I'd be Te dom???
You talk like you have no sense of self.


[*] I highly value efficiency in theory, but in practice I’m basically the opposite. Could this be inf Te? since the inferior position is described as the aspirational role? I struggle extremely with being productive, sometimes ending up not doing anything. Being able to realize what I'm planning to do is one of my BIG weaknesses.
Stop making crazy reaches. It's like everything you say is built on being non-falsifiable. You want to describe all these loose nuances when you don't even know yourself


My question
How can I make sense of those perceived deviations? How are all my functions interacting with each other that all of this can be explained? Is the theory of mbti rather loose and the functions aren't as rigid as they are thought to be? Am I a regular INTP?


I'm very grateful to anyone who tries to help :D
What you can do is fill out a survey and candidly answer the questions.



Other personality type indications (optional but gives more insight)

I'm a very introverted Gemini ("why use gemini when astrology is not seen as accurate/reliable?"-> since your sign is given it allows deviations and it works in my case so i’ll use it) The entire duality of a Gemini's personality, being an air sign (dreamer) and self-centered. I haven’t read much about Enneagram since I’ll first try to close the mbti thing before opening sth else) But I guess I'm most likely Type 9w1 on the Enneagram (the dreamer // no desire or reason to feel angry//hating conflict) (other Types could be possible too - but much less likely). I was also diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (Aspergers) in case this affects something.
I'm seeing a very clear trend that you really like Forer Effect appealing things. Aspies are usually a T of some kind, but the S/N is still up in the air.

Some other extra info why I made this thread (optional)
Why I doubt the tests & perception of others
It’s difficult to assess me because I live basically inside my head, therefore most of me is invisible to other people, which leads a big part of my personality in the shadow (not to mention some people have an extremely biased perception of reality and might be very one-sided or inaccurate)
I'll say. It sounds like a Ti kind of problem. You are very certainly not a Te.


Why I doubt my own perception of self
It's all based on self-report so there is no comparison. I don’t know if I remember the usual or the extraordinary. My own perceptions of myself could be distorted by personal bias or lack of knowledge of self as well as over-empathizing special behaviors/thoughts and forgetting the usual. Additionally, the information that I read could be wrong or wrongly understood by me (haven't had time yet to read Jung's book)
Yeah so you can find Psychological Types as a pdf on the internet pretty easily. What would be more appreciated though is if you actually said what you actually do. You just gave this list of assorted adjectives about yourself without showing how it plays out. Like what do you do for a living, or are you in school. What are you actually good at and why do you like it or what are you actually bad at and why would you not do that. Because it's very easy to sign on and just say "I'm very smart, and analytical, and critical" but what do you actually do.
 

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So I'll attempt to answer your questions point by point for clarity.

#1: Stress through paralysis/withdrawal/distraction because of the loss of intended outcomes indicates Ni dominance and Se inferiority.

#2: Thats Fe-Ti and exactly in that order. That isn't inferior Fe.

#3: Both those who value Ne or Ni can have idealized fantasies of the future since that is their main focus. Also, since you concern yourself with the morality of others, that would indicate Fe and not Fi.

#4: The struggle to "see" oneself indicates Fi on the unconscious level (meaning that it is in your shadow function stacking). Also, conformation out of the fear of ostracism is an indication of dom-Fe, aux-Fe, or tertiary-Fe.

#5: IXFJs can also over-indulge in their feelings when bad times happen. This would happen because of Fi-critic and its insanely high standards.

#6: You acted so differently as a child because you presented your subconscious self; the Se-dominant subconscious. Your subconscious self is probably an ESXP. I can say this because I acted the same way as a child. Looking too strong for details resembles a slight anxiety in Ti. This can cause analysis paralysis over what is perceived to be important details.

#7: The extroverted attitudes versus the introverted attitudes of the types resemble night and day. The night and day you presented resembles Fe-Se and Ni-Ti, respectively.

#8: You don't see that loop because you don't loop at all. Based on what I've read so far, you seem psychologically normal.

#9: Ni-dominance in relation to what is clumsily perceived through Se-inferior.

#10: No answer on that one.

#11: This point indicates two things. First, the weakness of being able to realize what is inwardly perceived indicates Se-inferiority. Second, struggling extremely with productivity is an indicator of low-Te; not necessarily inferior Te though.

#12: There's a hint of Te-aspiration in this point.

An answer to your question: First of all, don't rush the understanding of self. Take yourself slowly, read the tendencies of the functions (mbti-notes.tumblr helped me out extremely well on this), and understand what you prefer to do the most. Also, the functional stacking is rigid. The preference of functions though, are not. For example, I'm an INFJ and I prefer to handle life with Ni-Ti as opposed to the typical Ni-Fe. Don't get me wrong, I do value Fe as it helps me relate to others, but I will never prefer it over Ti judgments.

Overall, I think you're a pretty balanced INFJ.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I think you will find the more you search around random people on the internet the worse your situation will get. If it really comes to it you can just find a certified guy to test you, or just read Psychological Types and/or MTBI Manual.
When I think of INTP I think of a general collector of knowledge and almost certainly into computers at a deep level.
Well certified means paid and I defininetly won't spend money just for a typing XD
I do plan on reading Jung's book but I haven't found the time yet.
Collector of knowledge... not sure.
Nah I'm not into computers at all. Seems too boring to me.

The Last said:
I worry less about the less functions and more about the dominant functions. It really turns into a horoscope reading when you try get into it.
If you prefer to be isolated just for the sake of being isolated, then you are probably not Fe dominant or auxiliary.
It depends if the theory behind it is rather a rule of thumb estimate or not. But if we all have a certain set of functions then most of our behaviors should somehow be able to be in interpreted/explained through it. Perhaps one has to create a new and better model. It just bugs me that so many seem to have little difficulty in determining their type (and the type of others) while I'm here struggling.
I don't self-isolate just for the sake of itself but rather to focus on my own thoughts, dreams, hobbies etc.

The Last said:
If you care about what other people think about your values then you are not Fe or at least not in the high functions.
Mmh well the other person who responded to this post argues that this is Fe and not Fi while you say the opposite. Could you elaborate on that?


The Last said:
The athletic stereotypes are ESTP and ISTP, both of which have Ti.

Yeah but you aren't a popular fiction author so this doesn't apply.
You spend a lot of time comparing yourself to movie characters.
I was athletic as a kid, now I suck at it. If you say I should focus on my dom and aux I couldn't be either of them since Se repeatedly has had one of the lowest scores on the tests (unless you'd say other people would describe an ESTP/ISTP as scatter-brained, absent-minded, not knowing what happens around them, and very probably to set the kitchen on fire. I mean I did consider the idea of being an ISTP caught in a loop though compared to the other options it's less likely)

Did you mean since I'm not them this doesn't apply?
I think through art, stories and characters you're able to see parts of yourself. Probably not as behaviors and how you are perceived by others but in a sense of inner self, resonance and reflection, touching on thoughts, emotions and fears that you deal with. (I could write more on that but I'll leave it like this)

The Last said:
You sound like someone that read Socrates once and wants to say they are now the smartest in Athens because they know so little.......
Actually Socrates never wrote anything, it was rather others who wrote about him, and yes I read a book from Plato where he appeared. Though I don't know much about Socrates but I value the idea of an approach of questioning rather than answering. & No, I don't think of myself as smarter than most. I just prefer to be aware of my limits and be open for multiple ideas. I mean some people are believing in one truth and that's fine too, I just can't reproduce that way of thinking.

The Last said:
You talk like you have no sense of self.
Stop making crazy reaches. It's like everything you say is built on being non-falsifiable. You want to describe all these loose nuances when you don't even know yourself
That's interesting since I thought I know myself quite well. (You and the other guy both seem to suggest that my sense of self lies in the subconscious, which does make a lot of sense). Since you are an INTJ it'd be interesting if you illustrate what it's like finding a sense of self with tert Fi.

The Last said:
What you can do is fill out a survey and candidly answer the questions.
This is something that I'd say I do rather well? They may not be correct since I may lack this correct vision of self as you said but they are how I perceive myself (the chances that I vote through bias are rather unlikely) Yesterday I made the Sociotype test and answered being very honest (ready to accept any types and functions), when I wasn't sure I left the question neutral. I did both versions of the test and got twice LII-Ne (INTj) (=INTP). INTP has been a pattern. (I remember from the dichotomies (not 16 personalities, there I get INFJ or INFP) in the beginning I mostly got INTJ (which is rather unlikely to due lack of Te-Fi )). I'm just confused with my (self-perceived) high Fe. Though from family members when I asked them about the scale (F-T) one even joked if it ever happens that I make a decision based on emotions. (They all voted for T over F and Fe over Fi). But according to the other guy who responded to this post I seem like a pretty balanced INFJ. Would you agree with him? Take the side of the pattern of the INTP? Or argue for a completely different type?

The Last said:
I'm seeing a very clear trend that you really like Forer Effect appealing things. Aspies are usually a T of some kind, but the S/N is still up in the air.
Had to look this up but could be. A question: How can I know who I am if it's not by comparing myself to others? (Isn't identity about trying to understand on a personality trait spectrum where you are in relativity to the people that you know?)

The Last said:
Yeah so you can find Psychological Types as a pdf on the internet pretty easily. What would be more appreciated though is if you actually said what you actually do. You just gave this list of assorted adjectives about yourself without showing how it plays out. Like what do you do for a living, or are you in school. What are you actually good at and why do you like it or what are you actually bad at and why would you not do that. Because it's very easy to sign on and just say "I'm very smart, and analytical, and critical" but what do you actually do.
This time I tried to focus on my doubts and trying to fit them into the model rather than another description assessment. I also thought maybe some could read between the lines and extract information. About myself: I'm not yet 20. I study biology though I'd rather have enrolled into arts, psychology or philosophy but the job perspectives are whack(high unemployment and lack of variety) so I tried going for the most interesting STEM field (though I have a ~25-year plan that in the best case will go (very summarized) from a bio-med job, to an art education to a biology Master and then a teacher diploma). My hobbies are mostly dreaming and thinking. As well as rarely reading, creating art/stories or watching anime. I'd also be interested in much more, I don't think I could ever be bored, there's so much that I want to think, dream, create & learn. But because I lack self discipline and organization I usually just end up dreaming/thinking/YT&IG next to (barely) finishing my duties.
All the other questions are kinda hard to answer. I don't know what I'm good at. In school I had good language(literature) marks and bad chem and physics marks. I prefer to think about concepts rather reading stuff (e.g motives in literature, imaginary numbers and infinity, unconsciousness in psychology rather than physics formulas and applications.) Basically I tend to do stuff that is low effort for me.& I do things that interest me, that I enjoy.
I've been told I'm good at storytelling and arts. I suck at focusing my energy on doing what I should be doing. When I said "I'm very smart, and analytical" I used this because other people (also psychologists) told me this (and to contrast my brother telling me that I can be very dumb). I've added critical because if I wasn't wouldn't I have less troubles on settling on an opinion instead of constantly doubting myself? Though I do tend to be gullible/naive concerning interpersonal stuff, I rarely think people have ulterior motives.

Okay so that's my description of myself. I'd prefer not to overshare about my life therefore I'd rather not tell much more ((another reason why I originally didn't want to make a description typing. I prefer to give enneagram types/fictional characters to mirror myself rather than having to showcase more aspects of my life & self))

What type do you think I am?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
First of all, thank you very much for responding to my post and answering in such a structured, clear and direct way! :D Thank you also for the link that you sent me, I'll check it out, read through the information and will then get back to you and your arguments.

I just want to point out one thing: You argued for Fe concerning #3 while the other guy who responded to my post said this did not seem like Fe to him. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?

#3: Both those who value Ne or Ni can have idealized fantasies of the future since that is their main focus. Also, since you concern yourself with the morality of others, that would indicate Fe and not Fi.
 

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Well certified means paid and I defininetly won't spend money just for a typing XD
I do plan on reading Jung's book but I haven't found the time yet.
Collector of knowledge... not sure.
Nah I'm not into computers at all. Seems too boring to me.
INTP is like the most computer centric of the types I would say. It would be very weird for you to find computers boring and be an INTP.


It depends if the theory behind it is rather a rule of thumb estimate or not. But if we all have a certain set of functions then most of our behaviors should somehow be able to be in interpreted/explained through it. Perhaps one has to create a new and better model. It just bugs me that so many seem to have little difficulty in determining their type (and the type of others) while I'm here struggling.
I don't self-isolate just for the sake of itself but rather to focus on my own thoughts, dreams, hobbies etc.


Mmh well the other person who responded to this post argues that this is Fe and not Fi while you say the opposite. Could you elaborate on that?
Well I said it wasn't in the high values. Fe generally has fixed values so it would be weird if you were loose on them. It really also depends what you mean by caring about what people think about your values and how you come up with your values and when you come to certain conclusions or move around. That would be a more illuminating thing.


I was athletic as a kid, now I suck at it. If you say I should focus on my dom and aux I couldn't be either of them since Se repeatedly has had one of the lowest scores on the tests (unless you'd say other people would describe an ESTP/ISTP as scatter-brained, absent-minded, not knowing what happens around them, and very probably to set the kitchen on fire. I mean I did consider the idea of being an ISTP caught in a loop though compared to the other options it's less likely)
This is extremely weird that you would be athletic as a kid and be autistic. One of the easier signs to spot in autistic children is that they are really slow on developing fine muscle movement. This translates to bad at tying shoes and being really slow to learn how to ride a bike. Not sure what your definition of athlete is though. Obviously now you say you suck in the world of athleticism, so you are not Se or have it very low in your stack.

I'm saying you should focus on figuring out your dominant and auxiliary because a lot of times you get into the world of the Forer Effect when talking about inferior traits and such. They work more of a rounding out and seeing the big picture sort of deal than trying to find the weird nuance.


Did you mean since I'm not them this doesn't apply?
I think through art, stories and characters you're able to see parts of yourself. Probably not as behaviors and how you are perceived by others but in a sense of inner self, resonance and reflection, touching on thoughts, emotions and fears that you deal with. (I could write more on that but I'll leave it like this)
If you think through art, stories, and characters then I would guess you are an Si kind of person.

This is what Jung writes:
"Above all, his development alienates him from the reality of the
object, leaving him at the mercy of his subjective perceptions, which orient
his consciousness to an archaic reality, although his lack of comparative
judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact. Actually he lives in a
mythological world, where men, animals, locomotives, houses, rivers, and
mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons.
That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the
effect they have on his judgments and actions. He judges and acts as
though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only
when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If
he has any aptitude for objective reason, he will sense this difference as
morbid; but if he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is ready to grant
his sensations reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make believe
and a comedy."

If that is your introverted function, then you could have Fe or Te as your other. I'm not really tied to this idea, but it kind of seems like how you view the world is in your impressions of people and things. I'm not super tied up on this I just thought it was interesting.


Actually Socrates never wrote anything, it was rather others who wrote about him, and yes I read a book from Plato where he appeared. Though I don't know much about Socrates but I value the idea of an approach of questioning rather than answering. & No, I don't think of myself as smarter than most. I just prefer to be aware of my limits and be open for multiple ideas. I mean some people are believing in one truth and that's fine too, I just can't reproduce that way of thinking.
Yes I know he was followed around and they marked his words down, but you know what I meant and what story I was referencing.


That's interesting since I thought I know myself quite well. (You and the other guy both seem to suggest that my sense of self lies in the subconscious, which does make a lot of sense). Since you are an INTJ it'd be interesting if you illustrate what it's like finding a sense of self with tert Fi.
My sense of self comes from my Ni, but I express it as Te. So no matter what mystical bullshit I divine, I always try to put it into an objective lens.

This is something that I'd say I do rather well? They may not be correct since I may lack this correct vision of self as you said but they are how I perceive myself (the chances that I vote through bias are rather unlikely)
I meant take a questionnaire sticky and answer it here so I can look at it. I'm more looking at you using adjectives to describe yourself than actually seeing what you do or would do in daily life situations.


Yesterday I made the Sociotype test and answered being very honest (ready to accept any types and functions), when I wasn't sure I left the question neutral. I did both versions of the test and got twice LII-Ne (INTj) (=INTP). INTP has been a pattern. (I remember from the dichotomies (not 16 personalities, there I get INFJ or INFP) in the beginning I mostly got INTJ (which is rather unlikely to due lack of Te-Fi )).
All the tests I've seen on the internet push people into N not just 16personalities.


I'm just confused with my (self-perceived) high Fe. Though from family members when I asked them about the scale (F-T) one even joked if it ever happens that I make a decision based on emotions. (They all voted for T over F and Fe over Fi). But according to the other guy who responded to this post I seem like a pretty balanced INFJ. Would you agree with him? Take the side of the pattern of the INTP? Or argue for a completely different type?
I think it would be helpful for you to tell me in your own words what Fe means, where you get your idea of what Fe means, why you are Fe, and if those traits could possibly be used to describe anyone.


Had to look this up but could be. A question: How can I know who I am if it's not by comparing myself to others? (Isn't identity about trying to understand on a personality trait spectrum where you are in relativity to the people that you know?)
Identity is intersubjective in that you act a certain way and people perceive you a certain way. You don't have to ask people if you are more like a Norb or a Daggett.


This time I tried to focus on my doubts and trying to fit them into the model rather than another description assessment. I also thought maybe some could read between the lines and extract information.
Okay this is what I was waiting for.

About myself: I'm not yet 20. I study biology though I'd rather have enrolled into arts, psychology or philosophy but the job perspectives are whack(high unemployment and lack of variety) so I tried going for the most interesting STEM field (though I have a ~25-year plan that in the best case will go (very summarized) from a bio-med job, to an art education to a biology Master and then a teacher diploma).
That's a very whack time line. Usually Biology is an N.

My hobbies are mostly dreaming and thinking. As well as rarely reading, creating art/stories or watching anime. I'd also be interested in much more, I don't think I could ever be bored, there's so much that I want to think, dream, create & learn. But because I lack self discipline and organization I usually just end up dreaming/thinking/YT&IG next to (barely) finishing my duties.
All the other questions are kinda hard to answer. I don't know what I'm good at. In school I had good language(literature) marks and bad chem and physics marks. I prefer to think about concepts rather reading stuff (e.g motives in literature, imaginary numbers and infinity, unconsciousness in psychology rather than physics formulas and applications.) Basically I tend to do stuff that is low effort for me.& I do things that interest me, that I enjoy.
I've been told I'm good at storytelling and arts. I suck at focusing my energy on doing what I should be doing. When I said "I'm very smart, and analytical" I used this because other people (also psychologists) told me this (and to contrast my brother telling me that I can be very dumb). I've added critical because if I wasn't wouldn't I have less troubles on settling on an opinion instead of constantly doubting myself? Though I do tend to be gullible/naive concerning interpersonal stuff, I rarely think people have ulterior motives.
Okay so that's my description of myself. I'd prefer not to overshare about my life therefore I'd rather not tell much more ((another reason why I originally didn't want to make a description typing. I prefer to give enneagram types/fictional characters to mirror myself rather than having to showcase more aspects of my life & self))

What type do you think I am?[/QUOTE]


Actually you know what. I think you you are an ENTP. You seem like you have the Ti thing and you just like spaz out. You don't actually have focus. You want to do a bunch of things but don't actually do them from what you tell me. Like, how can you say you have so much to think about and so much you want to learn about and then say computers are boring? ENTP has a function stack like

Ne (this is you spazzing around with no direction)
Ti (trying to rein it in but not doing the best job)
Fe (so there's your Fe for you)
Si (it's inferior I'm not gonna try to claim I can see this in you from what you've given me)
 

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First of all, thank you very much for responding to my post and answering in such a structured, clear and direct way! :D Thank you also for the link that you sent me, I'll check it out, read through the information and will then get back to you and your arguments.

I just want to point out one thing: You argued for Fe concerning #3 while the other guy who responded to my post said this did not seem like Fe to him. Could you elaborate on your reasoning?
In your #3, you pointed out that depending on the group's decision on the morality of the action or decision, that decides your morality on the action or decision. That's straight up Fe. Types that value Fi over Fe have a much more stubborn view on morality. Their morality is almost never decided by the group. Depending on how high Fi is in the type's stack, their moral decisions are made based on their feelings alone. This is why I call those who highly value Fi (Fi-dom/aux) moral individualists and those who highly value Fe (Fe-dom/aux) moral collectivists.
 

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"The woman of this type follows her
feeling as a guide throughout life. As a result of upbringing her feeling has
developed into an adjusted function subject to conscious control. Except in
extreme cases, her feeling has a personal quality, even though she may
have repressed the subjective factor to a large extent. Her personality
appears adjusted in relation to external conditions. Her feelings harmonize
with objective situations and general values."

I have think I misread this as objective as meaning how we normally understand objective as opposed to the part separate from the subject being the object. So yeah you would be right on him having Fe, though I already put it in his stack I wanted to make it clear. However I wouldn't say it was that high on the list, since it doesn't seem to come up that much compared to the indecisive ping pong lifestyle shown which I think indicates a strong Ne.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
The Last said:
Well I said it wasn't in the high values. Fe generally has fixed values so it would be weird if you were loose on them. It really also depends what you mean by caring about what people think about your values and how you come up with your values and when you come to certain conclusions or move around. That would be a more illuminating thing.
In the end we need to live together so we need to find ways to do so. You could write a book about how to deal with external and internal values, where they come from and how you integrate them so I'll keep it short: I care for harmony and the well-being of others. I try to listen to sides and understand/compare both. If a certain value/opinion is dominant in society/an individual(I'm assuming now it's not one going against human rights) I'm not going to play the devil's advocate just to stir up trouble and worsen my relationships/put others in a bad mood. Some people want to listen, some people don't and not everything is important enough to be discussed. I'm mainly going after a live and let live philosophy. And I care a lot for the happiness of other people. Though I don't know if that's now Fe or Fi. (Sometimes I lowkey think I'm an INFP)


The Last said:
This is extremely weird that you would be athletic as a kid and be autistic. One of the easier signs to spot in autistic children is that they are really slow on developing fine muscle movement. This translates to bad at tying shoes and being really slow to learn how to ride a bike. Not sure what your definition of athlete is though. Obviously now you say you suck in the world of athleticism, so you are not Se or have it very low in your stack.
I've just been recently diagnosed and I did not really expect that outcome (though I kinda can understand it now). Apparently autistic people can be fairly different. As a child I've been one of the best in athletics, known in school for being one of the fastest. Definitely not anymore.


If you think through art, stories, and characters then I would guess you are an Si kind of person.
This is what Jung writes:
"Above all, his development alienates him from the reality of the
object, leaving him at the mercy of his subjective perceptions, which orient
his consciousness to an archaic reality, although his lack of comparative
judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact. Actually he lives in a
mythological world, where men, animals, locomotives, houses, rivers, and
mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons.
That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the
effect they have on his judgments and actions. He judges and acts as
though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only
when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If
he has any aptitude for objective reason, he will sense this difference as
morbid; but if he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is ready to grant
his sensations reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make believe
and a comedy."
If that is your introverted function, then you could have Fe or Te as your other. I'm not really tied to this idea, but it kind of seems like how you view the world is in your impressions of people and things. I'm not super tied up on this I just thought it was interesting.
Okay that one is interesting (assumed I understood it correctly). I do realize sometimes I filter information differently. It’s the concept and stories that touch me somehow and shape a lot of my understandings of the world. A lot of things remind me of other things I've seen, I guess this is Si. (But I wouldn't take the quote literally)

This mythological/conceptual reality is very strong when I have a bad time (or it puts me in a bad time?) I’ll think e.g about the Hedgehog’s Dilemma (Schopenhauer/NGE) and how humans are destined to struggle between being hurt and isolation (When I have a bad time I get into a black/white thinking pattern).

(Though I’d think of an Si dom as fairly in control of his memories. I’m pretty forgetful. Talking to someone about an anime that I’ve watched I couldn’t even remember half of it. I forget to do chores etc. I even forgot what I wrote you so I had to reread it again in order not to repeat myself)


I meant take a questionnaire sticky and answer it here so I can look at it. I'm more looking at you using adjectives to describe yourself than actually seeing what you do or would do in daily life situations.
I tried did the 16personality type test. Screenshot all answers but I struggle uploading it in good enough resolution. The result was INTP. (But again this is all self-report. I think you gain more from reading in between the lines)


I think it would be helpful for you to tell me in your own words what Fe means, where you get your idea of what Fe means, why you are Fe, and if those traits could possibly be used to describe anyone.
Not sure if correct but I understand it like this:
(A) Adapting the moral of a group as your own (E.g dom Fe wouldn't even realize the adaptation. kinda like having common sense but in a moral way)
(B) Being compassionate towards others, caring for the harmony in the group.



Identity is intersubjective in that you act a certain way and people perceive you a certain way. You don't have to ask people if you are more like a Norb or a Daggett.
Does that mean I will never be able to reach a sense of self? I know a part of my identity is how others perceive me, but I thought I could get to know myself through asking others or thinking about how I act. Isn't identity important to know your strengths and weaknesses? Is it possible to build connections without having a sense of self? Isn't that like trying to create a line but not knowing where the dots for start and end are? [Had to look these up but I think when I’m in my goofy self I’m more like Daggett and my brother Norbert haha XD]



That's a very whack time line.
TIME LINE? TIME LINE’S TIGHT AF!
Just kidding, anyway, I don't see the sense in retelling the past. You wanted to get closer to who I am, not where I've been to school or my struggling teen years.


Actually you know what. I think you you are an ENTP. You seem like you have the Ti thing and you just like spaz out. You don't actually have focus. You want to do a bunch of things but don't actually do them from what you tell me. Like, how can you say you have so much to think about and so much you want to learn about and then say computers are boring? ENTP has a function stack like
MMmmhhhhHHHhhh... I doubt that. Or atleast I can't fully comprehend it - yet.
Honestly ENTP sounds a bit idealized. Either I'm the wack version of ENTP or I'm a different type. I wish I was that Ne extroverted content creator - rather I'm having another debate show in my mind, or I'm daydreaming. I've also asked once two family members for the ANIMALS (->ObjectivePersonality on YT (idk if he's reliable) but that thing with Blast/Consume/Sleep/Play) and both assigned me SLEEP([introv.func. -> introv. func]introspective/processing/preserving energy). I know ENTP = most introverted extrovert but according to his theory I'd predominantly be in aux-inf mode rather than dom-tert.

Also ENTPs are the stereotypical debators. I'm not such a fan of debates. I prefer to think alone. A friend talked about souls and said he read that science suggests we may have souls. I asked if he thinks rocks have souls. He said no, they need energy. I asked if he meant energy as ATP(biology) and he rather meant «feelings»(sth like that) and has to be living. After a day I came back and asked if he thinks viruses have souls. And also questioned if he thinks it's a developed trait through evolution since if it’s something from the start then even rocks should have souls too. He just said he doesn’t think that viruses have souls but did not continue. I actually don’t enjoy philosophical/deep discussions much. I’d rather get philosophical input, go inward, think alone (sometimes over longer periods of time) and then get back to the person(assuming the input came from a person) to ask questions/compare/new input -> repeat cycle. I need time alone to think and process.

Another thing I WISH I had that the typical ENTP seems to be a pro in is ACTUAL improvisation. I can improvise well in my head (if not under stress), but in the actual moment I’m one of the slowest to respond. It’s typical that I find the funny punch lines after the conversation has moved on. I also struggle thinking and talking simultaneously. Therefore I get into huge stress when I’m expected to do something unprepared. I prefer planning.[Though sometimes when I’m less serious and in a comfortable space (e.g family ) I’m more able to be spontaneous, funny. But it's still my brother who’s the one always coming up with the perfect sarcastic remarks and the one who’s trolling everyone (and I’m the one being trolled))

[can't post full url]tube.com/watch?v=KmpVW6ICNeE (somewhere in the middle I got distracted and didn't finish it but you get the point) I'm way more reserved and I'm not mean to others. tert Fe often seems to be portrayed as manipulative and charming in ENTPs, and I don't think those are two adjectives others would associate with me.

I also question inferior Si. I mean I know someone who does not find their documents and does generally have no structure in their information storage. At least I find what I need usually and I sort out stuff for fast access (apart from stuff like keys or things I just took. Then I have no idea where I just put them). (Interestingly this person is opposite to me in noticing details. I can walk through the street having no idea what’s around me and no memories of what I’ve seen while this person notices everything and will be able to tell you exactly what they saw)

Computers have no dimension for interpretation and connection, it's very "binomial" (True/False). Like I said I don't know much about it, but what I know seems boring as hell. And just imagine making a mistake and having to reread everything to find the little mistake you did in programming. I'd rather make something creative. (funny thing I almost considered enrolling into engineering/IT because of the good perspectives and "perhaps it's gonna be super fun and I just don't know it yet". Creating new digital stuff seems like a nice idea but actually doing the work nah thx, next.)
[Sometimes I'm afraid of doing something new instead of what I'm used to and sometimes I'll just totally ignore whatever happened in the past(e.g never been interested in IT)]

[Funny thing: You said that I may be an ENTP. On Personality Database the Gemini Zodiac sign is mostly associated with ENTP]
 

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I've just been recently diagnosed and I did not really expect that outcome (though I kinda can understand it now). Apparently autistic people can be fairly different. As a child I've been one of the best in athletics, known in school for being one of the fastest. Definitely not anymore.
Okay running doesn't involve fine motor skills.


Not sure if correct but I understand it like this:
(A) Adapting the moral of a group as your own (E.g dom Fe wouldn't even realize the adaptation. kinda like having common sense but in a moral way)
(B) Being compassionate towards others, caring for the harmony in the group.
So then the next part would be if this is so much a part of you that it makes you different than other types. Like does INFP not care about the harmony of the group and is ENTJ incapable of compassion towards others? Are you much more caring than the next persona and that much more able to understand people's feelings at a deeper level without them laying them out for you?


Does that mean I will never be able to reach a sense of self? I know a part of my identity is how others perceive me, but I thought I could get to know myself through asking others or thinking about how I act. Isn't identity important to know your strengths and weaknesses? Is it possible to build connections without having a sense of self? Isn't that like trying to create a line but not knowing where the dots for start and end are? [Had to look these up but I think when I’m in my goofy self I’m more like Daggett and my brother Norbert haha XD]
The intersubjectivity is more about the cross between you and others, because you might think you are the kindest person and others might consider you an asshole. Or you might consider yourself lazy and others might think you are motivated. It's all kind of connected more than just someone gets to say they are a kind angel so they just are.


MMmmhhhhHHHhhh... I doubt that. Or atleast I can't fully comprehend it - yet.
Honestly ENTP sounds a bit idealized. Either I'm the wack version of ENTP or I'm a different type. I wish I was that Ne extroverted content creator - rather I'm having another debate show in my mind, or I'm daydreaming.
All those things could fall under ENTP.


I've also asked once two family members for the ANIMALS (->ObjectivePersonality on YT (idk if he's reliable) but that thing with Blast/Consume/Sleep/Play) and both assigned me SLEEP([introv.func. -> introv. func]introspective/processing/preserving energy). I know ENTP = most introverted extrovert but according to his theory I'd predominantly be in aux-inf mode rather than dom-tert.


Also ENTPs are the stereotypical debators. I'm not such a fan of debates. I prefer to think alone. A friend talked about souls and said he read that science suggests we may have souls. I asked if he thinks rocks have souls. He said no, they need energy. I asked if he meant energy as ATP(biology) and he rather meant «feelings»(sth like that) and has to be living. After a day I came back and asked if he thinks viruses have souls. And also questioned if he thinks it's a developed trait through evolution since if it’s something from the start then even rocks should have souls too. He just said he doesn’t think that viruses have souls but did not continue. I actually don’t enjoy philosophical/deep discussions much. I’d rather get philosophical input, go inward, think alone (sometimes over longer periods of time) and then get back to the person(assuming the input came from a person) to ask questions/compare/new input -> repeat cycle. I need time alone to think and process.
Thinking inwardly can either be Ni or Ti. Though usually Ni gets answers from themselves alone and Ti just takes a bunch of info in and mulls it over.


Another thing I WISH I had that the typical ENTP seems to be a pro in is ACTUAL improvisation. I can improvise well in my head (if not under stress), but in the actual moment I’m one of the slowest to respond.
It seems permissing was on to you when he said

Stress through paralysis/withdrawal/distraction because of the loss of intended outcomes indicates Ni dominance and Se inferiority.
You seem to be confirming it quite a bit


[can't post full url]tube.com/watch?v=KmpVW6ICNeE (somewhere in the middle I got distracted and didn't finish it but you get the point) I'm way more reserved and I'm not mean to others. tert Fe often seems to be portrayed as manipulative and charming in ENTPs, and I don't think those are two adjectives others would associate with me.
I think this is more that you get a mass of people on the internet that slap a label on a thing and you just have to take it that they know and aren't just saying that. I mean at least here we are discussing something over and see what lines up with what, but like you can search ENTP or whatever and find a billion dumb blogs and reddit posts of people saying, "oh you like ice cream? classic ENTP."

I also question inferior Si. I mean I know someone who does not find their documents and does generally have no structure in their information storage. At least I find what I need usually and I sort out stuff for fast access (apart from stuff like keys or things I just took. Then I have no idea where I just put them). (Interestingly this person is opposite to me in noticing details. I can walk through the street having no idea what’s around me and no memories of what I’ve seen while this person notices everything and will be able to tell you exactly what they saw)
You sound like I do.

Computers have no dimension for interpretation and connection, it's very "binomial" (True/False).
I think at this point you have shown enough proof for me to believe Ni over Ne/Ti.


Like I said I don't know much about it, but what I know seems boring as hell. And just imagine making a mistake and having to reread everything to find the little mistake you did in programming.
There is more to computers than this, but it is a running theme for sure.

I'd rather make something creative. (funny thing I almost considered enrolling into engineering/IT because of the good perspectives and "perhaps it's gonna be super fun and I just don't know it yet". Creating new digital stuff seems like a nice idea but actually doing the work nah thx, next.)
[Sometimes I'm afraid of doing something new instead of what I'm used to and sometimes I'll just totally ignore whatever happened in the past(e.g never been interested in IT)
[Funny thing: You said that I may be an ENTP. On Personality Database the Gemini Zodiac sign is mostly associated with ENTP][/QUOTE]

Yeah I'd say the INFJ one is better elaborated on now. You have defined better how you think has Ni now. You don't seem Te at all so you would have to be some kind of Ni-Fe type. Mostly it is your slow reaction time and your need to figure things out on your own terms over learning new things for the sake of learning them.
 

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IMO you communicate in an INTP-like style. I think INFJ is a reasonable option but your communication and focus just don't seem INFJ-like to me. I would guess you are best typed as an INTP with your most mild preference being for T.

How can I make sense of those perceived deviations? How are all my functions interacting with each other that all of this can be explained? Is the theory of mbti rather loose and the functions aren't as rigid as they are thought to be? Am I a regular INTP?
Function theory is... well, theory. It's interesting, in my opinion, but I think it can obscure the forest for the trees. The MBTI is, literally, a type indicator. It evidences cognitive preferences and gives some insight based on that. But cognitive preferences are just that, preferences, not hard-and-fast rules, and the functions are conceptual frameworks, not empirical brain pathways. (Nardi has done some interesting work into the functions and neuroscience.) I personally find it more useful to define oneself by the 4 preferences and strengths thereof than via functions. For myself, that would look like: I - mild preference, N - moderate preference, F - strong preference, P - mild preference. That explains a lot of my apparent deviations from type norm, like tending to test as ENFJ, ESFJ, INFJ, ENFP. I am also a more unusual Enneagram type for my MBTI type. I think 9 is a reasonably prevalent type for INTPs but less prevalent than e5. As such you would expect an e9 INTP to be a bit more F-like, and more resistant to disharmony, change, and decisiveness, which you seem to be.
 
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Is the theory of mbti rather loose and the functions aren't as rigid as they are thought to be?
Basically yes. There are several things that can influence your use of functions, for example how you grew up, how mature you are, what people surrounded you etc.. If you were raised in a family of T people, it may be probable that you show T characteristics even if you're an F.

From what you wrote in your first post you sound to me as a Ti/Ne, you want to understand deeply mbti and you have a lot of questions, doubts, hypothesis, ideas etc., in particular I see a looot of Ne, I may be wrong, but your writing style is so rich and you said you like spending your time thinking/dreaming.
You do sound more like an Fe rather than an Fi, surely nobody likes to ruin harmony, but Fi would preserve harmony in a group because it preserves its own harmony (does this make sense?) not really for the sake of others, so even if Fi alligns with the collective values it'd do it because it has his own reasons, not because everyone does it. Also by what you wrote, it doesn't seem that Fe is inferior for you, surely it is not one of your main functions but it doesn't look that weak.
I guess you are an xNTP (I'd lean toward Entp).

Almost all of my favorite authors and fictional characters are guessed to be Fi doms
I have my personal theory that we tend to like what we are not, for example my favorite characters are often T/N.

PS: Dazai ♥
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Thank you very much for all your input, you're helping me a lot and I'm very grateful for that.

Okay, I see you’re joining Pessimissing with thinking that I’m an INFJ. I’ll write about what I see speaks for and against it:

Ni(+): sociotype.com/socionics/types/ILI-INTp/ Until now this has been the most relatable text about an MBTI cognitive function that I’ve read (section about Ni, excluding the part about prediction). It makes sense that if my worst function is Se that my strongest would be Ni (Like a scale. That would explain why I’m living inside my mind, struggling to interact with the real world).
NI(-): I don’t have that typical «Ni prediction». The stereotype of being able to predict future outcomes when I’m fairly unaware of it (I have no inner clue how things are evolving). I also don’t have or listen to hunches/gut feeling.
«Introverted Intuition paired with the INFJ’s auxiliary function, Extroverted Feeling, makes the INFJ a great judge of character. They look beyond how someone presents themselves to understand the person’s true intent. INFJs are quick to pick up on someone who is being fake or who has less than pure motivations» I don’t think that’s me. I usually take interpersonal conversations at face value (unless I wrongly assume they are disliking me - for no apparent reason)
Ni and Ne compared: reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/2c3kj3/ni_or_ne_dominant/ Reading the first reply («Ne is focused…») I remember some days ago looking with someone at melted cheese spots on the table and being able to see effortlessly around 20 creatures. I’m very good at relating things(seeing objects/themes in other objects) if I want to.

So then the next part would be if this is so much a part of you that it makes you different than other types. Like does INFP not care about the harmony of the group and is ENTJ incapable of compassion towards others? Are you much more caring than the next persona and that much more able to understand people's feelings at a deeper level without them laying them out for you?
Fe(+): I do see myself as a compassionate person, but this might be biased. I easily find someone sympathetic and I focus on the good in people. I also don’t hold grudges and I forgive easily (but that’s more because I don’t see a reason why I should put energy in holding grudges if I can just move on. It’s the easier solution)
Fe(-): I struggle reading emotion’s through faces and I don’t know what people truly need. I’m quite unaware of the emotional atmosphere. I don’t understand others well. Depending how important they are to me I can go from minimal effort of being friendly to maximum effort of trying to compensate all the negativity&shortcomings in their life. I try to guess what they need by their behavior or their life story.
Fe and Fi: This one’s the most complicated and paradoxical. For Fi to be on the unconscious level I think I use it quite a lot. Switching between not listening to my feelings at all and constructing perceptions solely based on them (because I tunnel vision). I can very well understand the Fi critic suggested by Pessimissing since that’s the majority when this one kicks in but percentage wise I’d say it’s overused for a shadow functions (and sometimes underused and ignored). Perhaps I’ve undervalued this function until now and it may be higher than I thought it would. Fi seems very paradoxical to me.
Ti or Te: Idk what to say about this one
Se(-):
Pessimissing said:
#1: Stress through paralysis/withdrawal/distraction because of the loss of intended outcomes indicates Ni dominance and Se inferiority.
I relate to that. But I don't see my inferior function acting out. I only know about spiraling even more inwardly. I’ve rather been often happy that I’m not becoming impulsive/risky when I have a really bad time. The most «out of mind» thing that happens in such moments is that document my thoughts and feelings.

Generally about the inferior there’s a discrepancy. Since I’m very introverted I’d have an extroverted inferior function (that should be externally observable). I’ve asked three family members what my «out of character» behavior is or how I behave under stress. All of them said I display no such behavior. Idk man do I have an introverted inferior?

The Last said:
The intersubjectivity is more about the cross between you and others, because you might think you are the kindest person and others might consider you an asshole. Or you might consider yourself lazy and others might think you are motivated. It's all kind of connected more than just someone gets to say they are a kind angel so they just are.
That’s exactly why I’m asking my family members how they perceive me to get an external checkup. However I think I can become quite obsessive. I've been sometimes criticized that I'd be digging holes deeper and deeper while no one cares (and that I brood too much).

entow.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/each-function-at-various-levels-of-the-jungian-hierarchy/

According to this website(accuracy?) and the evaluations of two family members I fit the description of:
Te(aux + opp) //Ti(dom + tert)// Fe (tert+tert) // Fi(tert+dem) //Se(aux*+opp)// Si (aux +aux)// Ne(tert+inf)//Ni (aux+tert)
(*This one’s probably distorted since she thought aux Se means the same as aux Te)
–> This would indicate T over F and having an introverted perceiving function in the first or second position.


BTW Big Question: You said Ni is seeing patterns and finding answers while Ti is rather just mulling it over. If I truly was an Ni dom, wouldn’t I be able to find my type myself rather quickly? Isn’t it untypical for an Ni dom to present information and have others narrow it down to the «correct one»?
Another thing that would not correspond to Ni is that two of my family members told me I’m a bit «slow on the uptake» and I need longer than others to understand something fully (I would speculate that this is due to me being a very detail-oriented person? or I just struggle taking in new knowledge). This does not strike me as very Ni (since it should understand abstract thoughts fast and well). Even though it seems weird to me that I could be a dominant sensor, perhaps I am?


The Last said:
Thinking inwardly can either be Ni or Ti. Though usually Ni gets answers from themselves alone and Ti just takes a bunch of info in and mulls it over.
Since Ti is a judging function I think Ti should get answers too. I can almost always reproduce why I came to a certain conclusion that's why I think I rather use Ti than Ni (considering Ni = close to the subconscious, providing insights)


The Last said:
I think at this point you have shown enough proof for me to believe Ni over Ne/Ti.
Could you tell me how you come to that conclusion? Before you thought I was an Ne dom. What makes you think my Ni is stronger?

Do you still think I fit the INFJ type?
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
If I do not go by the theory then I’d say it is less «pure». It’s like saying there is a puzzle that should fit but instead just sort it out in clusters depending on the colors (even though it may make more sense to create clusters).

But I can totally get your point and I am very susceptible to not see the forest because of all the singular trees xD (I've also been told it's typical for people with the Asperger Syndrome to heavily zoom in and struggle seeing the bigger picture).
It's just VERY hard for me to go after dichotomies since I can't see if I'm more one or the other. If I behave sometimes like X and sometimes like Y, how could I determine which one is stronger? They are just used in separate situations/conditons. I only know that I have a strong preference for Introversion. I hope by digging deeper into the theory the details will not be anymore so relatable(conditions through positions and I/E direction) and it should work better to find out my type. If I had to go by the 16personalities I'd be an INXP.

I'm not sure if there is any science to back it up, and I can't really explain why I'm so interested in it... But you're probably correct and it's effectless and I'm wasting my time. I just think, "What if it really works" and I'm curious to find out. Anyways, thank you for your input!
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Silwin said:
Basically yes. There are several things that can influence your use of functions, for example how you grew up, how mature you are, what people surrounded you etc.. If you were raised in a family of T people, it may be probable that you show T characteristics even if you're an F.
Oof I struggle at typing others. I couldn't tell you if my parents are F or T. I could see INTJ, ESFP, ESTP, ISFJ, ISTJ, ISFP.

Silwin said:
From what you wrote in your first post you sound to me as a Ti/Ne, you want to understand deeply mbti and you have a lot of questions, doubts, hypothesis, ideas etc., in particular I see a looot of Ne, I may be wrong, but your writing style is so rich and you said you like spending your time thinking/dreaming.
I've also thought I might be more an Ne user but two here now thought I'd be a dom Ni so I'm interested where this will lead.


Silwin said:
You do sound more like an Fe rather than an Fi, surely nobody likes to ruin harmony, but Fi would preserve harmony in a group because it preserves its own harmony (does this make sense?) not really for the sake of others, so even if Fi alligns with the collective values it'd do it because it has his own reasons, not because everyone does it. Also by what you wrote, it doesn't seem that Fe is inferior for you, surely it is not one of your main functions but it doesn't look that weak.
I guess you are an xNTP (I'd lean toward Entp).
Okay but that makes me question if I'm Fe>Fi xD I just want to live in harmony with others so I try to find a way to do so and sometimes it means integrating external values. But I think having conflicts and a lot of negativity in your life most probably isn't healthy so I sometimes try to mediate between the two sides to help them solve the conflict. But I'm not sure if it's better to accept and conform or to argue and rebel. I aspire to find the perfect balance between individuality and society. I don't want to be alone but I also don't want to live for others.
Not seeing inferior Fe is one of the reasons why I doubted being an INTP.

Silwin said:
PS: Dazai ♥
Dazai's my favourite character! Which type do you think he is? I'd guess INFJ or INTJ. Assumed I understand the functions correctly I think he displays obvious Ni dominance. But I'm not sure if he's Fe or Fi. He lacks values. I'd say he's INTJ with poor Fi which would explain why he sometimes does stuff where "the end justifies the means"
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
«When trying to resolve a moral problem, Ti types are often slow to draw a conclusion because Fe makes them open to hearing various viewpoints in order to account for all the factors that might affect the outcome. Whichever option manages to coherently incorporate all of those factors will be considered the best path forward. When Ti and Fe are well-developed, a person is able to think of a solution that minimizes harm or, in the best case scenario, is a win-win for everyone involved. When Ti and Fe are imbalanced, a person becomes too extreme in judgment, either childishly rejecting all viewpoints but one’s own (Ti extreme) or getting overwhelmingly confused and unable to sort out too many conflicting viewpoints (Fe extreme).»

This excerpt is very fitting. And I haven't gotten anyone yet telling me I have Fi in my stack. I think it's rather safe to assume that I'm using Fe and Ti. The question is just which order and what are the perceiving functions.
 

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Oof I struggle at typing others. I couldn't tell you if my parents are F or T. I could see INTJ, ESFP, ESTP, ISFJ, ISTJ, ISFP.
Yep, typing our family can be pretty hard.
I've also thought I might be more an Ne user
Mmm, I dunno but I think that Ni is more... straightforward? I imagine Ni as a straight line in a dark forest, you just know that if you get that path you'll be out of the forest, while a Ne is more likely to walk around in the forest, maybe because he's more interested in exploring it and see what is hidden. I'm not Ni dom so I guess I can't understand it that much, but my Ni moments felt like "woah yeah, that's it" not something like "let's wander around here and see what happens". It probably doesn't make much sense tho XD
Okay but that makes me question if I'm Fe>Fi xD
I think that you are not an F dom or aux and by what you write you sound more like a Fe user. A high Fi would probably talk about inner harmony, authenticity etc. while you often write about external harmony and stuff like that. Also I noticed you asked your family about your type and I don't think that's something an Fi would do. Fi always feel misunderstood so they wouldn't trust other people's opinions (that doesn't necessarily mean you can't have a lower Fi tho).
Your need for individuality may be Ti, Ti and Fi are similar, they just have a different focus. They both value individuality.
How do you feel about inferior Si?
Which type do you think he is?
He's one of my favourite characters too ♥ I'm gonna put it under spoiler, just in case.
 
It's hard to say because he's *very* unhealthy, but I guess he's a XNTX for sure. I kinda lean toward Entp here too tho XD As I said above, Ni-dom seem very straightforward to me, in particular if the aux is Te, while he seems messier. The thing about him is that he doesn't seem concerned with changing the world or improving it, he's more busy with understanding the sense of life and death so I don't think he uses an external judging function (an Inxj in anime is probably the kind of type who wants to save/change the world).
Also this guy screams inf-S to me (that matches with both Intj and Entp) because he doesn't care about his body and his health and doesn't seem interested in the external world that much.
Plus all the scene with Oda (sigh) was like an awakening of his Fe. He didn't care at all about other people before, but someone very dear to him said "ok you feel there is no value, you might as well be a good person" and he basically became a better person. If he can save someone now he does it, even if he still can't find a sense or a meaning in life.
But as I said he's totally unhealthy, also I watched the anime quite some time ago and I kinda jump through the manga without giving it my full attention, so my opinion is probably pretty vague and inaccurate.
 
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