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Because of my temporary break from PerC, I've missed this thread completely, but I thought I'd share my thoughts anyway, as a 17-year old male INTJ who's only been on a date once, of which I only realised it was a date a few months later (I'm not even joking :p).

I've realised over the years that INTJs are not made for dating and will never be. It just doesn't compute in our brains. (I guess we have to leave something for the extroverts to be good at :p).
In my, albeit limited, experience, I've come to believe that INTJs aren't supposed to date at all. I cannot imagine anyone not calling the police because they think I'm a danger to national security if they were to go through the flirting/dating process with me :p.
Don't waste your time trying to find someone, because we INTJs are rubbish at it and I always say: Be proactive at the things you're good at, be reactive at the things you're not good at. (e.g.: I'm good at singing, so I actively go out of my way to sing a lot. I'm terrible at dancing, but if someone invited me to a dancing class, I'd totally say yes.)

These days, I hold strong to the belief that one day I'll just stumble into a relationship completely on accident. I'm a strong believer in serendipity, for the sake of my mental health/happiness.

As for other falling for whom you percieve as 'lesser': Let's face it, we're all thinking it all the time:
"I'm super amazing! Why can't anyone see that?"
I think this all the time. I think everyone does to some extent, but it's extra tough for INTJs, because we have a rich inner world, but we're not very good at sharing it and people don't like us very much. This sucks, but you have to put yourself past that, treat people fairly and just wait until someone stumbles upon your greatness. In the meantime, work on improving your greatness even more.

Sadly, this belief is very hopeful and the possibility exists that you will be single for the rest of your life. I've sort of reconciled myself with the possibility. What's important here is to reconcile with the possibility and nothing more, otherwise, you'll just shut yourself in. Accept the possibility of defeat and you will not fear it. The truth will set you free. (Not to quote the Bible, it just fits my ideas.)

So work on becoming the best person alive. Maybe become president, win the nobel prize, become a millionaire. You'll find someone along the way. If you don't, well then you're still president/a nobel prize winner/a millionaire :p.

Stay awesome, Icy! ;)
Relax homie. I didn't date until 17 either, and was no girl's taste, I can tell you that. But things change. The powers one has moves in tandem with one's accomplishments. The identity one has moves in tandem with one's powers.

Remember it's all just narratives, and no one else is the expert either. No one is. Everyone is scared. Except maybe the full on douchebags. They may be too dumb to be scared, I'm not sure.

For me, I had visions of "real men" out "getting chicks." I'd have female friends, and they'd complain about some douche and I'd think, "well, I'm right here. why not me?"

Sigh. For men like us it isn't easy. We have to maintain self-worth despite believing ourselves comparatively unattractive to women, and despite a deep abiding sorrow at the often baffling choices women make.

And then, everything isn't that anymore.

You realize that you see things more clearly by a million miles. You don't want chicks. You want an actual relationship that is rewarding, that may or may not be sexual. You allow yourself to get close knowing she might go elsewhere. You are brave enough to tell her what you hope for, and good enough to honestly want her to do what she authentically wants, even if that ain't you. You consider rejection a triumph, a completion of another gauntlet, another chance to figure it out.

A woman will be presented to you when are ready to have her. You can be ready sooner, if you want.
 

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Delphic Seer
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Discussion Starter #122 (Edited)
Because of my temporary break from PerC, I've missed this thread completely, but I thought I'd share my thoughts anyway, as a 17-year old male INTJ who's only been on a date once, of which I only realised it was a date a few months later (I'm not even joking :p).

I've realised over the years that INTJs are not made for dating and will never be. It just doesn't compute in our brains. (I guess we have to leave something for the extroverts to be good at :p).
In my, albeit limited, experience, I've come to believe that INTJs aren't supposed to date at all. I cannot imagine anyone not calling the police because they think I'm a danger to national security if they were to go through the flirting/dating process with me :p.
Don't waste your time trying to find someone, because we INTJs are rubbish at it and I always say: Be proactive at the things you're good at, be reactive at the things you're not good at. (e.g.: I'm good at singing, so I actively go out of my way to sing a lot. I'm terrible at dancing, but if someone invited me to a dancing class, I'd totally say yes.)

These days, I hold strong to the belief that one day I'll just stumble into a relationship completely on accident. I'm a strong believer in serendipity, for the sake of my mental health/happiness.

As for other falling for whom you percieve as 'lesser': Let's face it, we're all thinking it all the time:
"I'm super amazing! Why can't anyone see that?"
I think this all the time. I think everyone does to some extent, but it's extra tough for INTJs, because we have a rich inner world, but we're not very good at sharing it and people don't like us very much. This sucks, but you have to put yourself past that, treat people fairly and just wait until someone stumbles upon your greatness. In the meantime, work on improving your greatness even more.

Sadly, this belief is very hopeful and the possibility exists that you will be single for the rest of your life. I've sort of reconciled myself with the possibility. What's important here is to reconcile with the possibility and nothing more, otherwise, you'll just shut yourself in. Accept the possibility of defeat and you will not fear it. The truth will set you free. (Not to quote the Bible, it just fits my ideas.)

So work on becoming the best person alive. Maybe become president, win the nobel prize, become a millionaire. You'll find someone along the way. If you don't, well then you're still president/a nobel prize winner/a millionaire :p.

Stay awesome, Icy! ;)
Thanks man! This post actually reminded me of my younger self. When I was 17 yo (right now I'm 29), my perspective was almost entirely similar.

However, I was later engaged by brave ESFP, ESFJ and ENFP females. Those relationships probably (especially with the first two; things really could've worked with the ENFP though) weren't meant to last in the long term, but those experiences made me think that perhaps INTJ-ness and happiness are not mutually exclusive.

Back then, I didn't even know about MBTI but now that I'm familiar with it, I expect it will provide some reasonable navigational orientation by promoting mutual understanding.

This recent defeat I went through was difficult and it initially made me reconsider if romance was even worth it at all but, as INTJs, we know neither victory nor defeat are permanent conditions, so maybe even if success was not achieved with this particular INFP, maybe it can eventually be found elsewhere.

Moreover, I wholeheartedly embrace my awesome-ness (and it looks like you do too haha). I agree that self-improvement isn't certainly optional. :happy:
 
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Delphic Seer
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Discussion Starter #123
Nope. Tu est un vrai charmeur. Of course, that says nothing about sexual skills :kitteh: Tastes differ. Etc.

Mille fois merci mademoiselle! C=
C'est vraiment gentil de votre part :kitteh:
 

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Discussion Starter #124
So am I :sad:, but I’m already trying to recover from this setback, thanks greatly to the advice and encouragement provided by many INTJs and INFPs. Both types are terrific gurus! Mistakes were made but, hopefully, this experience can be an opportunity for learning and evolution. :happy:

I would choose you over most other virtual men
Thanks! (I suppose?) :kitteh:

Really? Based on what criteria? I’m genuinely intrigued and curious about your comments on this… Your insights will be kindly appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter #125
This sounds more like something a person says to delude themselves into thinking ''I'm cool, I don't need you. I'm enough''. It's ok to not be ok.

While it is absolutely true that better be alone and happy doing your things and not weighed down by a luggage of dead love, most people, when nearing death in one way or another, come to conclusions that love and human connections - that's the true meaning of life - and they regret not spending more time with their loved ones or not loving enough when they had the chance.

Exceptions, of course, of course....
I know it’s not rational, but I agree this hypothetical scenario you’re describing indeed looks unsatisfying…
 

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Discussion Starter #126 (Edited)
True. But we don't know what else she said or what would be her motivation to attack. I'd also think that a person may be less likely to share further details with an INTJ unless he asked for specific examples. In this case, it doesn't seem to me like Icy Heart asked her directly for specific evidences on how he was being unassertive.


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True, I didn’t ask her directly and I also think she didn’t mean to be intentionally hurtful. It's not her style.
 
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This sounds more like something a person says to delude themselves into thinking ''I'm cool, I don't need you. I'm enough''. It's ok to not be ok.

While it is absolutely true that better be alone and happy doing your things and not weighed down by a luggage of dead love, most people, when nearing death in one way or another, come to conclusions that love and human connections - that's the true meaning of life - and they regret not spending more time with their loved ones or not loving enough when they had the chance.

Exceptions, of course, of course....
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not belittling the human connection. Humans weren't made to be able to succeed on their own. I'm saying there is no need to force a connection like marriage unless you really feel like it's a lasting connection. In other words, don't worry about those who pick other over you. It just wasn't meant to happen. Also, there are plenty of connections you can make other than a significant other.
 
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I can empathize, I am an INTJ but quite assertive, can appear ENTJ like. I feel that extroversion can work in attracting women but usually I feel that they are attracted to me for personality/physical reasons and it feels very fake to me.

Being a strong NTJ can be psychologically lonely and I think I would have to find an equally screwed up psychology in a girl to actually be interested. What I mean is you can feel sad for losing someone you were interested in, but realize this person wasn't actually what you were looking for, just something close.
 

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I think you misunderstand me. I'm not belittling the human connection. Humans weren't made to be able to succeed on their own. I'm saying there is no need to force a connection like marriage unless you really feel like it's a lasting connection. In other words, don't worry about those who pick other over you. It just wasn't meant to happen. Also, there are plenty of connections you can make other than a significant other.
I guess I did misunderstand you

View attachment 423530

The ''live life single and unattached'' still is a bit dangerous (just like desperation) cuz it can create a dependency on freedom as a source of happiness. Radical mindset in general...

But I understand.
 

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Relax homie. I didn't date until 17 either, and was no girl's taste, I can tell you that. But things change. The powers one has moves in tandem with one's accomplishments. The identity one has moves in tandem with one's powers.

Remember it's all just narratives, and no one else is the expert either. No one is. Everyone is scared. Except maybe the full on douchebags. They may be too dumb to be scared, I'm not sure.

For me, I had visions of "real men" out "getting chicks." I'd have female friends, and they'd complain about some douche and I'd think, "well, I'm right here. why not me?"

Sigh. For men like us it isn't easy. We have to maintain self-worth despite believing ourselves comparatively unattractive to women, and despite a deep abiding sorrow at the often baffling choices women make.

And then, everything isn't that anymore.

You realize that you see things more clearly by a million miles. You don't want chicks. You want an actual relationship that is rewarding, that may or may not be sexual. You allow yourself to get close knowing she might go elsewhere. You are brave enough to tell her what you hope for, and good enough to honestly want her to do what she authentically wants, even if that ain't you. You consider rejection a triumph, a completion of another gauntlet, another chance to figure it out.

A woman will be presented to you when are ready to have her. You can be ready sooner, if you want.
Oh yeah, I found out a while ago that only around 17 a small percentage of all people who date start getting 'decent' relationships, although most of them still crash. It's not that I'm in a rush to date either. I want to get it right the first time, but I wouldn't mind if that first time didn't wait around too long. :p

Totally. A big moment in my maturation was realizing that everyone is ultimately just trying to be happy. Once I realised that, I found that there was not a single person out there that I couldn't understand, let alone hate.

I've recently stopped getting mad at that thought. I had it all the time, but I realised that it wasn't helping me, so I got rid of it.
That, and realising that they probably have plenty of reasons not to go for me, otherwise they would at least consider. People can be stupid, but not that stupid.

It took me a while to go from a socially awkward 8th grader who read pick-up artist blogs to learn how to talk to girls (I wish I was joking) to a person who wants to be in a relationship for the other person as well. Looking back, I'm glad nobody was interested in me at the time, because I really was a piece of shit, even if nobody knew.
Moral of the story for INTJs: You can say to everyone that you're the best, but always assume you're not. Humility suits all and self-improvement is critical. Never forget that.

As for that woman: maybe I'll find someone once I go to university next year, but most of the girls in my school know me already, so I'm not expecting much right now. Who knows?

Thanks for the advice, man. :)
 

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Thanks man! This post actually reminded me of my younger self. When I was 17 yo (right now I'm 29), my perspective was almost entirely similar.

However, I was later engaged by brave ESFP, ESFJ and ENFP females. Those relationships probably (especially with the first two; things really could've worked with the ENFP though) weren't meant to last in the long term, but those experiences made me think that perhaps INTJ-ness and happiness are not mutually exclusive.

Back then, I didn't even know about MBTI but now that I'm familiar with it, I expect it will provide some reasonable navigational orientation by promoting mutual understanding.

This recent defeat I went through was difficult and it initially made me reconsider if romance was even worth it at all but, as INTJs, we know neither victory nor defeat are permanent conditions, so maybe even if success was not achieved with this particular INFP, maybe it can eventually be found elsewhere.

Moreover, I wholeheartedly embrace my awesome-ness (and it looks like you do too haha). I agree that self-improvement isn't certainly optional. :happy:
My pleasure. ;)

I don't think INTJ-ness and happiness are mutually exclusive, it's just a tough balancing act, as with so many things in life. I'll let you know once I figure it out. :p

I think romance is worth it. I mean, this summer, a random girl smiled at me and I was happy for a week, so I can't even begin to imagine what being in a relationship must be like. :p
And yes, every defeat just strengthens you for the future, so don't give up. You only lose if you give up.

Oh yes I embrace my awesomeness! :p Why would I even want to keep living if I didn't think I was super awesome? :p
Ah, the best cure for nihilism: groundless, but absolute self-confidence. :p
 

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I think intelligent people seek out in a partner the strengths that they don't have. And thoughtful partners seek out a partner that has a similar philosophy/worldview. Hopefully the partner you eventually find is both intelligent and thoughtful. That would make her probably very different from you personality-wise, but very similar to you in how she views the world.

I am supposedly INTJ, and I married what seems to be an ESTJ man. He's nothing like me, but that's the point. At the same time, we view life completely secular-ly and quite pessimistically. This works for us. We both attack the world from different angles, but with the same goal/expectations in mind

The ESTJ suitor may be inferior to you in intelligence or insight, but maybe this woman you dated doesn't need this in a man. Maybe she wants a dragon-slayer who shares her religious and moral values. Which makes her completely wrong for you.

I went on dozens of first dates before I found my Mr. Right. It's really just a numbers game, hopefully you live in/near a big enough city. Then it's just a function of energy level and money. And if you are willing to forsake romance then you don't want it bad enough, for now. And that's ok too.
 

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It took me a while to go from a socially awkward 8th grader who read pick-up artist blogs to learn how to talk to girls (I wish I was joking) to a person who wants to be in a relationship for the other person as well.
Is this an INTJ thing? Doing research on PUA forums/blogs and stuff... My INTJ did this when he was younger too. I thought it was so cute!!! Hahahaha...



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Delphic Seer
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Discussion Starter #134
I think intelligent people seek out in a partner the strengths that they don't have. And thoughtful partners seek out a partner that has a similar philosophy/worldview. Hopefully the partner you eventually find is both intelligent and thoughtful. That would make her probably very different from you personality-wise, but very similar to you in how she views the world.

I am supposedly INTJ, and I married what seems to be an ESTJ man. He's nothing like me, but that's the point. At the same time, we view life completely secular-ly and quite pessimistically. This works for us. We both attack the world from different angles, but with the same goal/expectations in mind

The ESTJ suitor may be inferior to you in intelligence or insight, but maybe this woman you dated doesn't need this in a man. Maybe she wants a dragon-slayer who shares her religious and moral values. Which makes her completely wrong for you.

I went on dozens of first dates before I found my Mr. Right. It's really just a numbers game, hopefully you live in/near a big enough city. Then it's just a function of energy level and money. And if you are willing to forsake romance then you don't want it bad enough, for now. And that's ok too.

I concur. We don't what kind of criteria the decision was based on. However, I've come to think this explanation sounds more than plausible. Maybe she was looking for a "protector" all along (instead of a "mindmate").

Therefore, this whole endeavor might have been doomed from the very beginning (because of dissimilar expectations). Hence, it looks like I was mistaken for investing in THIS particular pursuit, but that doesn't necessarily mean other investments can't be eventually made somewhere else, under more favorable conditions.

Moreover, I admit I relate better to the dragon itself than to the dragon-slayer hahaha. :kitteh:
 
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Discussion Starter #135
Is this an INTJ thing? Doing research on PUA forums/blogs and stuff... My INTJ did this when he was younger too. I thought it was so cute!!! Hahahaha...



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I often resort to the guidance/advice/wisdom provided by others who are far more knowledgeable and experienced in these endeavors.

But I guess the same general principle still applies (doing research).
 
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