[screamofconscious]

An Overview of the Six (pgs 163-164)

Sixes are full of contradictions. They are emotionally dependent on others, yet do not reveal much of themselves. They want to be close to others, yet test them first to see if they can be trusted. They worship authority, yet fear it. They are obedient, yet disobedient; fearful of aggression, yet sometimes highly aggressive themselves. They search for security, yet feel insecure. They are likable and endearing, yet can be mean and hateful. They believe in traditional values, yet may subvert those values. They want to escape punishment, yet may bring it on themselves. Sixes are full of contradicitons because anxiety makes them ricochet from one psychological state to another. And in response to anxiety, Sixes look to an authority to put their anxiety to rest.

"Our system of education teaches us to put our faith in something else - a corporation, a marriage, a trade, a profession, a religion, polotics, something, one might say anything, which offers us a set of rules we can obey and rewards us for obedience to them. It's safer to be a domestic animal than a wild one. (Michael Korda, POWER!, 254)"

For sixes, security comes from a rock-of-ages allegiance to an authority outside the self which they can obey. Sixes want to feel protected and secure by having something bigger and more powerful than they guiding them. IBM will do, but so will the Communist party or the Republican party or the church. The doctrines Sixes believe are important to them, but not as important as having someone to believe in.

The Major Subtypes of the Six (pages 186 - 188)

The Six with a Five-Wing

The traits of the Six and those of a Five-wing are in some degree of conflict with each other. The general orientation of Sixes is toward dependency on others, while the orientation of Fives is toward a detachment from people so that they can avoid being influenced by anyone. Noteworthy examples of this subtype include Richard Nixon, Robert F. Kennedy, Robert Redford, Peter Ueberroth, Rock Hudson, Paul Newman, Billy Graham, Walter Mondale, Alexander Haig, G. Gordon Liddy, Joseph McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, Jerry Falwell, Lyndon La Rouche, Meir Kahane, and John Hinckley, Jr.
Healthy people of this subtype are not only endearing, they can be very interesting invidivduals. They may have a strong intellectual streak, depending on how much Five-wing is in their overall personality. They frequently have keen insights based either on academic learning or practical knowledge. They are usually shrewd observers of the environment, particularly people, and put a premium on foresight and predicting how others will react. Their perceptions are more original than those of Sixes with a Sevin-wing, but because Six is the basic type, they come across not as intellectuals but as extremely competent, knowledgeable individuals.
The anxiety we see in average Sixes also causes people of this subtype to be more intense than Sixes with a Seven-wing. Persons of this subtype tend to be constricted in the expression of their emotions, and are usually more cynical, negativistic, and contentious. The legal and business worlds are typical arenas for their energies. They also see the environment as a threatening place; suspiciousness, secrecy, fanaticism, and membership in organizations for mutual protection are common. They also tend to be the more physically attractive of the two major subypes of the Six; this group includes some of th emost physically attractive individuals of all the personality types, by contemporary American standards. Yet, narcissism (arrogance, brashness) may be an overcompensation for insecurity and inferiorty feelings. Sexual conflicts may be a problem, since there is increased suspiciousness of others.
Unhealthy persons of this subtype are extremely suspicious, tending toward either mild or severe paranoia. They may abuse alcohol or drugs as a way of dealing with anxiety and paranoid delusions, as well as of blostering their inferiorty feelings. There may be sadomasochistic tendencies in sexual expressions. The extent and nature of their self-destructiveness will be hidden from others because of their reclusive nature. This is also a very violent subtype. Intense stress will likely lead to outbreaks of rage and extremely destructive behavior accompanied by breaks with reality. Murder is more likely than suicide.

The Six with a Seven Wing

The traits of the Six and the traits of a Seven-wing reinforce each other. This subtype is more clerly extroverted, more interested in having a good time, more sociable, and, for better or worse, is less intensely focused upon either the environment or itself than Sixes with a Five-wing. Noteworthy examples of this subtype include Ted Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, Johnny Carson, Phil Donahue, Ted Turner, Bruce Springsteen, Sally Field, Diane Keaton, Teri Garr, Elton Joh, Rob Reiner, Mikhail Baryshnikov, Reggie Jackson, Tom Selleck, Billy Carter, Andy Rooney, Fred Mertz, Archie Bunker, and the Cowardly Lion.
Healthy persons of this subtype desire not only to feel accepted and secure with others, but also happy, particularly with regard to material well-being. People in this subtype are extremely likable and sociable, taking neither themselves nor life that seriously, or at least, not solomnly. If they are intelligent and talented, they may be accomplished in a number of areas, particularly sports, entertainment, politics or the arts - whatever field brings them into contact with people or the public eye. People of this subtype are usually extremely playful and funny, since a sense of humor is one of their most salient means of coping with life and it's tensions.
Average persons of this subtype do not handle anxiety, tension, or pressures well. They react by becoming ambivalent and indecisive, as well as impulsive, grumpy, and peevish. Their sense of humor is used to deflect others, and their passive-aggressivenes to get them out of unpleasant situations. They have a curmudgeonly quality, easily souring on those people and things that have brought them displeasure and aroused their aggressions or anxiety. However, they do more blustering than real damage. When they overcompensate, they are less prone to be destructive of others and more apt to do those things which may eventually become self-destructive.
Unhealthy persons of this subtype are more disposed to becoming dependent on others, and they do not attempt to disguise the depth of their emotional needs. Inferiorty feelings combine with the desire to escape from themselves. Unhealthy Sixes with a Seven-wing have few means of dealing with anxiety, and as anxiety gets worse, they become increasingly emotionally erratic. People of this subtype are in a flight from anxiety, tending to become manic rather than paranoid. They act out their unconscious fears, flying into hysterical overreactions more readily than the other subtype. This subtype is also subject to debilitating panic attacks, since anxiety, rather than aggression, has the upper hand. Suicide attempts, as a way of eliciting help, are likely.


Excerpts are taken from Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Don Richard Riso

 

[Jack Rabid]

I see this about 6's .. this need for authority.. I don't get it.. I test as a 6 (also 4 and 9)

But I just don't see this in me..

I have rejected authority my whole life.. and have no desire to be ruled by anyone..I want my personal relationships to be equal in regards to sway and respect..

I do desire to have respect for something or some one(there is little out there worthy, in terms of systems and people).. but also to be respected.. Is this the same thing??

 

[Grey]

Have you thought of type Three? They have a strong, typical desire to be impressive as well as to like others.

 

[Jack Rabid]

Have you thought of type Three? They have a strong, typical desire to be impressive as well as to like others.

Well.. Someone, who's opinion I value is convinced I am 6.. If I was looking for authority.. I would agree..No?

However there is too much about this type that doesn't feel right.

I think I might be looking in the wrong place and I am going to read up on a few other types..

I will start with 3.. Thanks..

 

[screamofconscious]

I see this about 6's .. this need for authority.. I don't get it.. I test as a 6 (also 4 and 9)

But I just don't see this in me..

I have rejected authority my whole life.. and have no desire to be ruled by anyone..I want my personal relationships to be equal in regards to sway and respect..

I do desire to have respect for something or some one(there is little out there worthy, in terms of systems and people).. but also to be respected.. Is this the same thing??

Well, I know a number of 6's who reject the dependency side of the 6. They feel very strongly that they are independent, yet I see them cling to authority, rules, a system, religion (whatever the case may be) ferociously. Perhaps you don't have a strong authority figure in your life, but have some belief system which governs your actions? If you are unable to see this within yourself, perhaps you could ask somebody close to you if they've noticed any such behavior.

I'd look at type 9 as well. Giving respect and being respected is a typical desire of the average 9. 6, 9 and 3 are all connected through directions of integration and disintegration. Since you test as type 6 as well as 9, I would think that one of the three (3 being least likely) would be your type. I'll be posting more overviews tonight. I'm planning on 8 and 9 for this evening. Perhaps this will help you a bit more. If not, you can look forward to the rest of the overviews over the course of the next week.

EDIT:

I do desire to have respect for something or some one(there is little out there worthy, in terms of systems and people).. but also to be respected.. Is this the same thing??

For the 6, I would have to say yes.

 

[screamofconscious]

Well.. Someone, who's opinion I value is convinced I am 6.. If I was looking for authority.. I would agree..No? ..

Not necessarily. 6 wants authority but is often in state of suspicion of the authority. Even if the authority is able to prove themself worthy, the 6 will continue to test them. This is of course, in relation to average to unhealthy 6's.

 

[Jack Rabid]

Not necessarily. 6 wants authority but is often in state of suspicion of the authority. Even if the authority is able to prove themself worthy, the 6 will continue to test them. This is of course, in relation to average to unhealthy 6's.

So if someone loved me.. but I was in a personal hell of shame.. would I reject my lover whom I admired and respected in so many ways??
I would be in a very unhealthy state.. But how does admiration and respect as well as love equate to placing the person in an authoritative position..??

Oh there would also be the question of wanting to give respect..as opposed to actually giving it.. at least not some ways.

 

[screamofconscious]

So if someone loved me.. but I was in a personal hell of shame.. would I reject my lover whom I admired and respected in so many ways?? .

I have personally witnessed an (unhealthy) 6 do this very thing. Such behavior is described quite well in the book referenced in the OP.

I would be in a very unhealthy state.. But how does admiration and respect as well as love equate to placing the person in an authoritative position..??.

I think authoritive would be the wrong word to use here. It's not so much about allowing your lover to be your boss, so to speak, but in placing absolute faith in this person. They can do no wrong, they are elevated to a status of perfection...until they're not, and that's when things get ugly. This would apply to the unhealthy 6 and perhaps to a much lesser degree in the average 6.

Oh there would also be the question of wanting to give respect..as opposed to actually giving it.. at least not some ways.

I dislike trying to type people online. Even in real life, it is difficult unless I know the person well.....but the more I read from you, the more I think you sound like a 6. It seems like you're dealing with a lot of pushing and pulling. You go in one direction of wanting to give respect, and then the other with not actually doing it, at least not completely. The first sentence of the OP says that 6's are full of contradictions....

A few questions for you. Do you see yourself as passive aggressive and/or sarcastic? If so, do you take any kind of pride in it? When you're stressed out, do you get competitive and arrogant? Are you sensitive to criticism? What do you generally think about individuals that criticize you? I'm sure I think think of a million more questions, but I would think those are the most important questions one could ask an average to unhealthy 6 in trying to determine their type.

 

[Jack Rabid]

I have personally witnessed an (unhealthy) 6 do this very thing. Such behavior is described quite well in the book referenced in the OP.



I think authoritive would be the wrong word to use here. It's not so much about allowing your lover to be your boss, so to speak, but in placing absolute faith in this person. They can do no wrong, they are elevated to a status of perfection...until they're not, and that's when things get ugly. This would apply to the unhealthy 6 and perhaps to a much lesser degree in the average 6.



I dislike trying to type people online. Even in real life, it is difficult unless I know the person well.....but the more I read from you, the more I think you sound like a 6. It seems like you're dealing with a lot of pushing and pulling. You go in one direction of wanting to give respect, and then the other with not actually doing it, at least not completely. The first sentence of the OP says that 6's are full of contradictions....

A few questions for you. Do you see yourself as passive aggressive and/or sarcastic? If so, do you take any kind of pride in it? When you're stressed out, do you get competitive and arrogant? Are you sensitive to criticism? What do you generally think about individuals that criticize you? I'm sure I think think of a million more questions, but I would think those are the most important questions one could ask an average to unhealthy 6 in trying to determine their type.

The 1st bold part is spot on.. See it's kind of impossible to respect someone 100%, when being with them makes you disrespect yourself.. So I guess this sounds very true in my case..

As to the questions .. I am not competitive or arrogant .. but It might seem that way if I am being stubborn.. I can be stubborn ..
Criticism and it bothering me, depend on my level of respect for the person criticizing me.. If I value their opinion of me.. criticism will be taken quite hard.. and likely giving back .. and if that person values what I think of them.. we would have a problem..

I see..:frustrating:

 

[Grim]

Here are my personal observations on 6s: (keep in mind the vast majority; if not all of the questions I ask here are rhetorical. I don't mind if you try to answer them... but they are there to get you thinking... and it will save confusion for everyone to know I'm not looking to be answered.)


6w5s seem less aware across the board of the anxiety. It's not so much about anxiety for 6s in general as it is about doubt, and uncertainty. It's never knowing for sure, never having enough answers. Always being skeptical. Always wondering if the decision they just made was the correct one. Second guessing it. "Maybe I pushed this too far... I should back off and just get along." It is the doubt/uncertainty that creates the anxiety. 6 minds are fast. Very fast. The 6 mind is a highspeed machine that quickly bounces from one thought or idea to another. 6s can process many different thoughts in a very short amount of time, and as such each thought does not quite get enough attention to allow it to take root in the mind. Giving each thought an unfamiliar feel to it.

In my experience 6w7s are typically very aware of their fears, and anxiety. They have less ego issues dealing with it. Also, self typed 6w5s are almost always female. I only recall 1 male who had 6 on his profile, and I've not seen anything beyond an introduction post from him, I wish he'd post more to see if he's the first male either self typed as a 6w5 or that I've seen who has come to accept 6w5 as their type. If he's 6w7.... then I still have not seen a single male who accepts 6w5. Think about that. 6s, are one of the most common types, male and female. Yet dig through this forum and find a single male that says they are 6w5.

They all think, or want to believe they are 8s. The reality is Munchies may very well be the only 8w7 on the whole forum. Sooner, and William Wolf seemed very 8w7 at first... but over time said things that were un8ish. They both ended up being countershame 3s. As such, finding out they were not 8s didnt bother them at all. Neither of them argued about it. Yet challenge the 6w5 men about not being 8s... and the fireworks start. They get angry, overract, argue heatedly in an effort to prove how aggressive they are, how 8 they are. Why?

Mostly because society tells men they have to be tough. That it's unmanly to be afraid, or nervous. That just by having fear they are cowards. Which is ridiculous. In truth... it is those who are most afraid and yet still move on despite the fear that are the most brave. The most noble. A rock knows no fear... and therefore can never be brave. The problem is having fear opens up the possibility of being a coward. Or being seen as a coward. Why does it matter? Are they afraid it might be true? Yes. On a subconscious level, that is the case. So they get angry, because a challenge to their type threatens to unsettle and disrupt their world. The other person might be smarter than they are... they might be right. Who knows for sure? Doubt... uncertainty. So the 6w5 tries to tear the other person down. And in a hurry. Because they fear the accusation they're not as strong as they think they are might be true, on a subconscious level they know it's true, and they feel the need beat it down before it can take root. If they run it off then it wasnt real. It's a challenge to their identity.

But... it shouldn't be. In a mind free from this kind of worry, anxiety, fear, and need for experts... a challenge of type means nothing. If I claim the sky is green, people will laugh. It's obviously not. The claim has no merit, as such it is never taken seriously. So why then would the challenge to someone's type draw such anger, if there was no chance the other person is right. If you have the mentality that you're biggest, baddest, strongest, toughest thing around... why does some random internet person's opinion unsettle you so? Why do you need their acknowledgment? Why do you need their approval? Do you see the irony of claiming to the toughest thing around, and then putting the power to be denied or "awarded" the 8 "prize" in the hands of someone else? Why would you feel the need to convince me or anyone else?

The answer is simple. The easiest way to overcome the inherent doubt/uncertainty is to get external validation. It's the college degree. It's the expert opinion. It was proved by science. The test said so. The profile said so. The pros all agree. The doubt is inside, so the proof comes from without. And it's not an unreasonable way of doing things. In the mind of someone that values safety, and surety. That external validation/proof is a comfortable safety net. A warm blanket. If anyone comes questioning: Hey, look here. I've got my certificate. I've got proof. A police officer said so. My college professor, who is an expert on the subject said so. People with more experience than you said so. Again, there is nothing unmanly about it... it's not a lack of toughness. It's a lack of being certain. Doubting does not equal cowardice.

Part of the problem is the 6 profiles are written with more of a 6w7 tone. They don't address the issues with why 6w5s don't relate to the type. 6w5s read the profile and don't relate to lots of it. Mostly because as I said above... they are less aware of the anxiety, or what counts as "support seeking". 6w5s often take on many challenges, or go things alone. Often this is to prove to themselves and others that they were strong enough, or fast enough, or smart enough to do it. They aggressively hunt down things they can use to validate their strength. "If I can do this... I'm not weak." And chances are they are 100% correct. No one says 6w5s are weak. That is a fear in the mind of the person. They are afraid it says they might be weak. In reality, all it really means is that really strong people doubt or are uncertain of just how strong they are... and want proof of it. They want to be reminded they can handle things that come their way. Again... this is not an unreasonable position to be in... their minds ask "what if I'm not strong enough...." they might not be able to handle what is thrown at them... so it's better to make sure now.... and check to make sure often... so you don't get caught by surprise. It's smart when you think about it. In reality a 6 can be just as strong, just as tough as any other type out there. Can be tougher, can be stronger. The difference is instead of being an assumed strength, or formidability (Never considered, thought of, or questioned) 6s just want to make sure. This doesnt somehow make them weak... it just means they need to be certain. 6w5s often see the 6w5 type as being a downgrading.... because it doesnt validate their strength. It highlights their "flaws". So they refuse to accept it, and look for something better.

Some interesting things to note:

HEAD TYPES (5,6,7)

5s are the type that want to have knowledge of the most things. (knowledge over capability) On a subconscious level they know their instincts are poor (some are aware of it). So 5s try to learn as much as they can, so when confronted a situation, they'll have an answer. They withdraw and study everything to hone their knowledge. They are detached because being the most withdrawn type, if things should go wrong it's easier to deal with the consequences mentally if you were never worried about them to begin with. Or don't allow them to touch you on a personal level. If confronted with a situation they don't have an answer for... they research it, and get back to it. 5s do not have to worry so much about failure because things are thoroughly researched before attempted. 5s go to 7 in that once something is studied they go out and do it.

7s are the type that want to know how to do the most things. (capability over knowledge) They too realize on some level their instincts are not as good as some, so they compensate by learning how to do the most things. They are out in the world in force experiencing the most they can, so when confronted with a situation... they know what to do because they've done it before. This type goes through lots of trial and error because there is less study done before hand. As such, 7s often overestimate their own abilities. Also because there is lots of error before they get it right... they have to be mentally prepared for a high rate of failure. Consequently 7s tend to be the most shameless type. They've been out there in front of others and fallen on their faces time and again, so it no longer bothers them. They've also become quite good at faking it, and can often rely on not being caught faking it to get by. 7s go to 5 in that when they find something they assumed they could do... but continually fail at... they go look it up.

6s are right in the middle of this. They need the most answers. They are stuck needing to know how, and prove they can do it, too. Needing to study, and do all at once they cannot fall back on one or the other to compensate for their failings. So they seek peace when things are beyond their abilities. They wish the problems would just go away. The line to 3 is in that need for external validation. Once they feel comfortable in the tools they developed... they go out and rack up the accomplishments so they can have that external validation and proof for themselves and others to see that they had what it took to get things done.

I think that 6 with a 5 wings are often less or totally unaware of their anxiety and its root causes because they are closer to the detachment of the 5. It is a side of them that is less felt, or experienced. It's not allowed to touch them. Being less aware of the generic fears, they tend to be more aggressive.

I think 6w7s are often more aware of their anxiety and its root causes because they are closer to the 7 side of things, and are more likely to have the energy that causes them to more fully experience things. Being more aware of those generic fears they tend to be more buddy-buddy/go with the flow. If they don't rock the boat and are friendly and nice, people will look after them, or at the very least not seek to give them a hard time.

Enough for now. I may post some more later.

 

[screamofconscious]

The 1st bold part is spot on.. See it's kind of impossible to respect someone 100%, when being with them makes you disrespect yourself.. So I guess this sounds very true in my case..

As to the questions .. I am not competitive or arrogant .. but It might seem that way if I am being stubborn.. I can be stubborn ..
Criticism and it bothering me, depend on my level of respect for the person criticizing me.. If I value their opinion of me.. criticism will be taken quite hard.. and likely giving back .. and if that person values what I think of them.. we would have a problem..

I see..:frustrating:

Ha, that's why I don't like typing people online. Too many variables that I can't see. I'll get the 9 overview up. It takes a bit to type out, but it's coming shortly.

 

[Jack Rabid]

Ha, that's why I don't like typing people online. Too many variables that I can't see. I'll get the 9 overview up. It takes a bit to type out, but it's coming shortly.

Your not REALLY typing me.. I am drawing my own conclusions .. but hearing things from others seems to have great value ..

In fact this makes me think of a new Sig quote .. roud:

 

[screamofconscious]

Your not REALLY typing me.. I am drawing my own conclusions .. but hearing things from others seems to have great value ..

In fact this makes me think of a new Sig quote .. roud:

You're right, I'm not typing you. I was just making my point as to why I don't like to do it. I often question peoples types but never with a desicive disbelief that they arent what they claim to be. I find that some would prefer to be told their type...those conversations don't usually go very far with me. Anyway, I don't get the impression that you are one of those people so I'm happy to oblige you as far as you desire to take this conversation.



On another note, I intend to respond to Grims post in this thread. His observations have *some* merit, however, I have some serious problems with what he has not said. I only include this statement in this particular post because its going to take some time to pick apart that post given its length. I would hate to see doubtful sixes discredit the idea of being a six after reading that...if I have any decent understanding of six and eight, I think I can reasonably predict some major discord arising from some of Grims comments.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Narrator]

As a six I've got no massive problems with what Grim said. EDIT: Ahh, what he didn't say. I think most descriptions are rather lacking, what do you feel he could have expanded on?

I think the idea of anxiety coming from doubt and uncertainty (and being 'fast') is a good way to phrase it, more like there's something 'wrong', but you're never quite sure what, always that little bit too switched on, trying to find, or projecting, that sense of 'wrong'ness outwards.

Authority feels like too much of a trigger word... Part of the reason there was a whole split down the middle of six for a time, and still now somewhat, into phobia and couter phobia was due to the fact, in the extream they either submit totally or react aganist it totally. This in itself is something of a fallacy, all types are capable of being being passionate and counterpassionate. Also, a six in themself may swing between the two, often depending on level of health, some more phobic, some more counterphobic.

A somewhat garbled version.

Compare Faith, Willow, and Xander from Buffy, Or Ron Weasly - 6w7
Snape (or Frollo from the Hunchback), Steven Segal, Nathaniel Fisher Sr.in Six feet under, - 6w5

Authority can depend on stacking, among other things, as a sx seconder I'm very concerned with a particular type of intimacy, occasionally putting close male friends (there've been two, but I notice the temptation in other relationships) into the messiah possition, but not taking it to a..sxerific level.

Sixes with a five wing are likely more consciously focused on their environment, with a seven wing it's more about reacting to the environment.

My dad can pick out the negative in any situation - My mum: what a nice basket of hanging flowers
My dad: *deadly serious* That could fall on someone's head and kill them >=(... *goes off on a rant about feckn cyclists and how you can never trust them* (He's an extream 6w5 though, some variation is highly likely) More Si-Te

I have a hard time disconnecting from rocking backwards and forwards, twitchy twitch twiching tension, my thinking is far less Te-full. - 6w7 More Se(Fx for me)-Ti possibly

"I notice that 6's often have an unnerving hatred streak. With the 6w5's, it usually comes out in dry, cutting, emotionless sarcasm. With the 6w7, it can come out in fierce tongue whiplash; 'he probably dumped her because she died her hair that colour'.

I find 6w5's more obviously withdrawn, and 6w7's are easily stimulated by the external surroundings, they are very responsive. They're quite intense socially, I find. Locked eye contact, very reactionary to you, etc. You'll rarely feel invisable around one, that's for sure. Everyone's noticed, and often scanned. " - I think nervous eye contact could also be possible, though I'm guilty of 'lock'ing a fair bit.

The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - Elaborating the cp 6w5 vs. 6w7 difference Source Try using search on the boards there:
The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - Search

Just reading through the enneagram boards can be helpful, also finding type exemplars, at least for me.

 

[Grim]

There's plenty I didnt say. Among those things are how 6w5s use their built in BS sniffer. The reasons as to why they are natural counter-punchers in arguments. The reason they often go out of their way to crank up the sex appeal. The reason they seem to constantly be scanning their environment looking for situations that match how they think should go. Like the example above with the hanging flowers. About how they also scan people looking for those they think are too full of themselves, and the reasons why they feel the need to try to knock them down a peg, often using public opinion (support from others) if possible. Reasons behind why they will often contradict themselves in arguments, and not see it as lying.

Things like why 6w7s feel driven to know the motives/reasons for why people around them do all the things they do, and why that comfort is important.

Those things are coming. In the meantime I'll wait for aubrey's reply. Also... what does the 9w1w8 in your sig mean? And if you're thinking you're a 9... I'd suggest you try again on the self typing. A 9 would be the least likely to respond to a post like mine and try to assert that my statements only have "some" merit. A 9w8 might take me on in a confrontational way if they felt I was being a disruption to the peace... which is clearly not the case here. But even if so, they would likely just try to run me off. Trying to tell people how much merit my opinions have is a display of more ego than 9s like to show. They're not interested in drawing attention to themselves. For some examples look over posts by Trope, and LadyJava, both 9w1s, and Kokos; 9w8. I cannot imagine a 9 saying something like "I've got some serious problems with...." in a public setting like this. In fact the portion of reply #13 that are dedicated to my post, has that preemptive type 6 feel to it. My post not passing your sniff test, feeling the need to take my statements down a peg, scanning ahead looking, and seeing potential for "major discord" and feeling a need to attack it before it causes problems.

 

[screamofconscious]

Those things are coming. In the meantime I'll wait for aubrey's reply. Also... what does the 9w1w8 in your sig mean? And if you're thinking you're a 9... I'd suggest you try again on the self typing. A 9 would be the least likely to respond to a post like mine and try to assert that my statements only have "some" merit. A 9w8 might take me on in a confrontational way if they felt I was being a disruption to the peace... which is clearly not the case here. But even if so, they would likely just try to run me off. Trying to tell people how much merit my opinions have is a display of more ego than 9s like to show. They're not interested in drawing attention to themselves. For some examples look over posts by Trope, and LadyJava, both 9w1s, and Kokos; 9w8. I cannot imagine a 9 saying something like "I've got some serious problems with...." in a public setting like this. In fact the portion of reply #13 that are dedicated to my post, has that preemptive type 6 feel to it. My post not passing your sniff test, feeling the need to take my statements down a peg, scanning ahead looking, and seeing potential for "major discord" and feeling a need to attack it before it causes problems.

My response to your original post will be forthcoming tonight. Please do not assume that I intend to attack you or your observations. I do not mean to tear down what you've said, only to bring to light certain issues that you appear to have ignored. I really don't want to fight with you Grim. There have been a number of times you've said things that I blantantly disagreed with (in vent) about Enneagram, but have remained silent due to your brutish nature. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of a softer side to you, but I am doubtful that would I get any of that being that you don't know me. I am far more comfortable responding to your comments in the forum. I don't find you so intimidating this way and it gives me time to process my thoughts and feelings before responding. There were also some problems with a few details that you mentioned, but I care not to discuss that until my next post here. I had to respond to this bit about my type though.

First, what I mean by 9w1w8 is that I am fairly well balanced between my 1 and 8 wing. 1 goes first because I believe I lean just slightly more that way. Most people in a forum would not incite my 8 wing either. Betrayal by strangers just seems a bit too far fetched to me.

Sometimes I wonder if I must be psychic...but I know this is not true, there is no such thing. I did, however, foresee you trying to retype me as a 6 coming though. I assure you, I am not. If you knew me at all, you might understand why I find your assertion laughable. Again, the dangers of typing somebody online are that you can only see what the other has allowed you to see. There are far too many variables in a persons behavior and personality to do so with any degree of certainty. I do share a number of traits with the 6, which is easily explained by the fact that 6 and 9 are connected through directions of integration and disintegration. The overall pattern of my life, however, is that of a 9. I have no doubt, no uncertainty of this, whatsoever.

I came across Enneagram on the internet just over a year ago. At this time I was wallowing in the lowest levels of mental health. Discovering my Enneagram type was like a slap in the face during a very empty dream. And it woke me up, albiet groggily aft first. I have spent the past year studying this subject extensively. I have read and own a number of books on the subject and I have scoured the internet for even more. I have no need to reread the types descriptions. I know what I fear, what I value and what motivates me. I understand how I behave and why. Enneagram has also taught me how to get out of the personal hell that I was in. My development has been rapid as this typing system has helped me pinpoint the key problems of my personality and it hasn't hurt at all that my doctor agreed with me that I was in need of certain medications to regain my sanity. And guess what? My personal problems and medication have nothing to do with anxiety. What you believe a 9 should act like is that of an average to unhealthy 9. Perhaps you should reserve judgement as to whether or not I am healthy, average or unhealthy until you get to know me. You might also reserve judgement as to how much I know about Enneagram before you suggest I try comparing myself to others.

If you would still like to believe that I'm a 6, that's fine. As you've said, the opinion of some stranger off the internet means little.

 

[Grim]

My response to your original post will be forthcoming tonight. Please do not assume that I intend to attack you or your observations. I do not mean to tear down what you've said, only to bring to light certain issues that you appear to have ignored. I really don't want to fight with you Grim. There have been a number of times you've said things that I blantantly disagreed with (in vent) about Enneagram, but have remained silent due to your brutish nature. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of a softer side to you, but I am doubtful that would I get any of that being that you don't know me. I am far more comfortable responding to your comments in the forum. I don't find you so intimidating this way and it gives me time to process my thoughts and feelings before responding. There were also some problems with a few details that you mentioned, but I care not to discuss that until my next post here. I had to respond to this bit about my type though.

First, what I mean by 9w1w8 is that I am fairly well balanced between my 1 and 8 wing. 1 goes first because I believe I lean just slightly more that way. Most people in a forum would not incite my 8 wing either. Betrayal by strangers just seems a bit too far fetched to me.

Sometimes I wonder if I must be psychic...but I know this is not true, there is no such thing. I did, however, foresee you trying to retype me as a 6 coming though. I assure you, I am not. If you knew me at all, you might understand why I find your assertion laughable. Again, the dangers of typing somebody online are that you can only see what the other has allowed you to see. There are far too many variables in a persons behavior and personality to do so with any degree of certainty. I do share a number of traits with the 6, which is easily explained by the fact that 6 and 9 are connected through directions of integration and disintegration. The overall pattern of my life, however, is that of a 9. I have no doubt, no uncertainty of this, whatsoever.

I came across Enneagram on the internet just over a year ago. At this time I was wallowing in the lowest levels of mental health. Discovering my Enneagram type was like a slap in the face during a very empty dream. And it woke me up, albiet groggily aft first. I have spent the past year studying this subject extensively. I have read and own a number of books on the subject and I have scoured the internet for even more. I have no need to reread the types descriptions. I know what I fear, what I value and what motivates me. I understand how I behave and why. Enneagram has also taught me how to get out of the personal hell that I was in. My development has been rapid as this typing system has helped me pinpoint the key problems of my personality and it hasn't hurt at all that my doctor agreed with me that I was in need of certain medications to regain my sanity. And guess what? My personal problems and medication have nothing to do with anxiety. What you believe a 9 should act like is that of an average to unhealthy 9. Perhaps you should reserve judgement as to whether or not I am healthy, average or unhealthy until you get to know me. You might also reserve judgement as to how much I know about Enneagram before you suggest I try comparing myself to others.

If you would still like to believe that I'm a 6, that's fine. As you've said, the opinion of some stranger off the internet means little.

It does not get any more 6 than this. The 9 version, if they even bother to reply at all is; "thanks... I'll look into it." Whether they intend to or not.

I offered you the names of some 9s so you could look over some of their posts and see what you relate to or not. That's for your benefit, personally. If you want to check it out great, if not... that's OK too.

If it means anything to you... 9w1 is a gestalt. 9w8 is a gestalt. They are self-contained personalities with specific traits. They have commonalities, and they have ways in which they are different enough to warrant being called something else. For you to be both 9w1 and 9w8 you'd have to have multiple personality disorder. The wings are not like gears in a car to be changed to as the situation requires. The wings make what you are a completely different vehicle altogether. There is no validity to 9w1w8.

 

[screamofconscious]

6s, are one of the most common types, male and female.

I would be very interested to know how you arrived to this conclusion. Is this personal observation or have you found research to substantiate such a claim?

They all think, or want to believe they are 8s.

I know a number of 6’s that despise the personality type of 8. Why would they want to be something they dislike? They don’t. I’d like to believe, however, that what you were actually trying to say that it is common for a counter phobic 6 to mistype themselves as an 8. Would the latter statement be unreasonable?

Sooner, and William Wolf seemed very 8w7 at first... but over time said things that were un8ish. They both ended up being counter shame 3s. As such, finding out they were not 8s didnt bother them at all. Neither of them argued about it.

Where did you learn the term counter shame? Or is it an idea you developed on your own? As I stated in a previous post, I’ve read a lot on this subject, but I have never heard this term. Perhaps you could direct me to sites and/or books covering such material. Also, given that 3’s compensate for their shame by either being or trying to appear “the best” at whatever it is they do, can you describe how a 3 who is not “counter shame” behaves? Perhaps these questions would best be left for a thread on 3’s. I intend to type the overview for the 3 soon. In fact, if you would be interested, I would be willing to do this tonight.

Yet challenge the 6w5 men about not being 8s... and the fireworks start. They get angry, overact, argue heatedly in an effort to prove how aggressive they are, how 8 they are. Why?

I’m not so sure this is the kind of show you seem to make this out to be. The 6’s anger and aggression is very real. Perhaps some 6’s would put on an act, and you have witnessed such behaviour, however aggression is a part of the 6’s nature. This is not a trait belonging solely to 8’s. But you know this already, I believe.

In a mind free from this kind of worry, anxiety, fear, and need for experts... a challenge of type means nothing. If I claim the sky is green, people will laugh. It's obviously not. The claim has no merit, as such it is never taken seriously. So why then would the challenge to someone's type draw such anger, if there was no chance the other person is right.

6’s have a problem with authority. They want the structure, but this must be in harmony with their feelings and reason before they can accept authority with any ease or security. The average to unhealthy 6 however, is sensitive to criticism of any kind. Coming from somebody they love and respect, they will feel crushed. Coming from somebody they don’t know or dislike is where it gets interesting. They will suffer from feelings of acute inferiority and then attempt to inflate their ego with arrogance. Projection comes in at this point (6’s are masters of projection). They tell themselves that the offender is arrogant, condescending or any number of other synonyms. They reek of contempt. They will lash out at the offender to varying degrees. An internet forum is the perfect place for this. The worst retribution they can suffer is being banned from the forum and it’s not as if there aren’t others available.
On the other hand, telling an 8 that they aren’t an 8 can certainly incite aggression. Just telling them that they’re wrong usually gets them pretty irritated, but not always. Some 8’s are quite confident with their authority. An 8 under stress, or one that is disintegrated however, may lash out quite angrily. “How dare you judge me” comes to mind. Running the offender off through verbal and/or physical abuse is quite common. In any case, to challenge an 8, one must have a solid argument or they will be crushed. Since we are in a forum and there really is not certain way to gauge stress factors in the individual’s life amongst other important unknowable variables of their personality, it is most unreasonable to assume that an 8 angry with such an assertion is not an 8.

The answer is simple. The easiest way to overcome the inherent doubt/uncertainty is to get external validation. It's the college degree. It's the expert opinion. It was proved by science. The test said so. The profile said so. The pros all agree. The doubt is inside, so the proof comes from without. And it's not an unreasonable way of doing things. In the mind of someone that values safety, and surety. That external validation/proof is a comfortable safety net. A warm blanket. If anyone comes questioning: Hey, look here. I've got my certificate. I've got proof. A police officer said so. My college professor, who is an expert on the subject said so. People with more experience than you said so. Again, there is nothing unmanly about it... it's not a lack of toughness. It's a lack of being certain. Doubting does not equal cowardice.

Yes, 6’s strive for external validation. They also constantly question that validation since it did not come from themselves, especially since they look for that external validation under stress, much like the 3 does in day to day life.

5s go to 7 in that once something is studied they go out and do it.

No, 5’s go to 7 and become hyperactive and scattered because they are under stress and disintegrating.

7s go to 5 in that when they find something they assumed they could do... but continually fail at... they go look it up.

Yes, but I think it’s more about gaining the full breadth of their experience. They begin to gain and use a mastery of knowledge and insight in order to fully appreciate their experiences.

The line to 3 is in that need for external validation. Once they feel comfortable in the tools they developed... they go out and rack up the accomplishments so they can have that external validation and proof for themselves and others to see that they had what it took to get things done.

This is also incorrect. 6’s go to 3 under stress. Yes, they need validation, but at this point it is coming from within and being projected out. I already described above how they behave.
It seems that you have confused the lines of integration and disintegration between some of the types. Perhaps this is why you have drawn conclusions about the types that are different from my own.

Integration
6 ---à 9 ---à 3 ---à 6
1 ---à 7 ---à 5 ---à 8 ---à 2 ---à 4 ---à 1
Disintegration
6 ---à 3 ---à 9 ---à 6
1 ---à 4 ---à 2 ---à8 ---à 5 ---à 7 ---à 1
But don’t take my word for it. Look below or do a search in Google.

Enough for now. I may post some more later.

Please do.

 

[screamofconscious]

It does not get any more 6 than this. The 9 version, if they even bother to reply at all is; "thanks... I'll look into it." Whether they intend to or not.

That makes perfect sense in relation to human psychology. We are like robots completely predictable 100% of the time in thoughts, words and actions. Way to invalidate a typology system.:dry:

For you to be both 9w1 and 9w8 you'd have to have multiple personality disorder. The wings are not like gears in a car to be changed to as the situation requires. The wings make what you are a completely different vehicle altogether. There is no validity to 9w1w8.

Exactly how much study have you done into the theory of wings? I would not have equated wings to mechanics, regardless of my beliefs. I've read several different theories on wings and the one you seem to believe allows for little complexity to the individual. The theory that I ascribe to is that the wings develop out of a need to soften the most unmanagable characteristics of the core type. Integration and disintegration in core and wing types can be observed seperatly in the individual. Should this theory ever prove to be correct, I don't think it would be difficult to make a connection in how some people would develop both wings and use them situationally.

This is the last thing I'm going to say in reference to my type, Grim. Imagine a 9 mustering up the courage to debate an 8. Can you imagine the stress involved? Of course you're seeing 6 in me, I'm stressed out. Angry, not at all...a little irritated, but only a little...scared as hell of the conflict I'm allowing myself to be a part of? You bet your ass I am. Yet I know objectively that I should not be afraid. The only way to overcome such fear and regain self respect is to deal. So here I am. Do you see any 3 as well? I'm sure not feeling competitive. I don't look down on you, despite the fact that I disagree with you on many points. To finally pull together the thoughts and feelings that have been unnoticed for a huge majority of my life and then actually assert them?! This a massive development of myself, just as it is predicted when 9 goes to 3 in integration.

 

[screamofconscious]

There's plenty I didnt say. Among those things are how 6w5s use their built in BS sniffer. The reasons as to why they are natural counter-punchers in arguments. The reason they often go out of their way to crank up the sex appeal. The reason they seem to constantly be scanning their environment looking for situations that match how they think should go. Like the example above with the hanging flowers. About how they also scan people looking for those they think are too full of themselves, and the reasons why they feel the need to try to knock them down a peg, often using public opinion (support from others) if possible. Reasons behind why they will often contradict themselves in arguments, and not see it as lying.

Things like why 6w7s feel driven to know the motives/reasons for why people around them do all the things they do, and why that comfort is important.

Those things are coming. In the meantime I'll wait for aubrey's reply. Also... what does the 9w1w8 in your sig mean? And if you're thinking you're a 9... I'd suggest you try again on the self typing. A 9 would be the least likely to respond to a post like mine and try to assert that my statements only have "some" merit. A 9w8 might take me on in a confrontational way if they felt I was being a disruption to the peace... which is clearly not the case here. But even if so, they would likely just try to run me off. Trying to tell people how much merit my opinions have is a display of more ego than 9s like to show. They're not interested in drawing attention to themselves. For some examples look over posts by Trope, and LadyJava, both 9w1s, and Kokos; 9w8. I cannot imagine a 9 saying something like "I've got some serious problems with...." in a public setting like this. In fact the portion of reply #13 that are dedicated to my post, has that preemptive type 6 feel to it. My post not passing your sniff test, feeling the need to take my statements down a peg, scanning ahead looking, and seeing potential for "major discord" and feeling a need to attack it before it causes problems.

It does not get any more 6 than this. The 9 version, if they even bother to reply at all is; "thanks... I'll look into it." Whether they intend to or not.

I offered you the names of some 9s so you could look over some of their posts and see what you relate to or not. That's for your benefit, personally. If you want to check it out great, if not... that's OK too.

If it means anything to you... 9w1 is a gestalt. 9w8 is a gestalt. They are self-contained personalities with specific traits. They have commonalities, and they have ways in which they are different enough to warrant being called something else. For you to be both 9w1 and 9w8 you'd have to have multiple personality disorder. The wings are not like gears in a car to be changed to as the situation requires. The wings make what you are a completely different vehicle altogether. There is no validity to 9w1w8.

You pulled the rug right out from under me. I hate you and I love you for it all at the same time. How's that for a 6. :tongue:

It hurts to finally be so certain of myself only to find out I was terribly wrong. However, I want to know the truth of myself, so I must accept it. I don't think my emotions can get anymore mixed than this and I despise them for their hopeless contradictions. Hopefully coming clean with myself will help that to pass.

I relate in some unnerving ways to 9. There are many different theories that can explain this. The theories I have ascribed to are no less valid than Grim's. But I don't believe in any one theory anymore. I need more information. I would suggest to anybody interested in the subject to read on them all. I cannot and will not tell you what to believe.

That really does feel better. Maybe now I can fall asleep.